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  • Help untangling this web please

    Greetings all, hope everyone had a good Christmas. Having exhausted eating, board games and watching the Queen's speech as possible diversions, I'm back to FH research, and would be grateful for any help with this teaser...

    The following were based in Leicestershire, mostly in various villages between Lutterworth and Market Harborough (occasionally straying into Northamptonshire, which of course adds to the fun since I'm never quite sure which county to look in):

    Samuel Carter, b c1774, married Tamar Williamson b c1775. Children Mary (1), Joseph, Samuel, Thomas, John and Isaac definite. Elizabeth and Edward (2) also suspected to be their children, the only doubt being that their mother would have been 50 by the time Edward was born, which struck me as slightly unlikely, although probably just about possible. Since I have Edward's marriage certificate, which gives his father's name as Samuel, and the occupation given also matches, I'm reasonably sure that this Samuel was indeed Edward's father, but as he was born pre-civ reg I've no birth certificate and thus no record of his mother - so there might have been a second marriage involved, although I've no evidence for this.

    Mary (1), b c1800, married Uriah (sometimes Uzziah) Hart (3) b c1796. Children Harriet, Uriah, Samuel (4) and Thomas. Samuel Hart (4) b c1838 married Sarah Knight b c1841, and had a daughter Charlotte.

    Edward (2) b c1825, married Mary Ann Hart (5) b c1828. Children Jane (6), Eliza, Mary, Louisa, Edward, Ellen, Evelyn and William. Jane Carter (6) married Berry Knight b c1837 - her cousin's (Samuel, 4) wife's (Sarah's) brother. Jane was Berry Knight's second wife - his first was Charlotte Hart.

    So...

    Little question: do you think it likely that Tamar would have had a child at the age of 50? I've never known anyone else have one that late.

    Big question: there are three lots of Harts involved here: Uzziah Hart (3) and his children; Mary Ann Hart (5); and Charlotte Hart, Berry Knight's first wife. Given that Hart is a fairly rare name and they're all based in the same area, it seems likely that they're connected, but I can't work out how. The only clue I have is that Mary Ann's birthplace is given as Markfield - the same place where Uzziah and family are recorded on the 1841 census, which suggests a link. All I'm certain of is that the two Charlottes are not the same person - since Berry and Charlotte Knight had their first child four years before the other Charlotte was born! Any help would be much appreciated.
    Michael, aged 1/4 of a century

  • #2
    where are you sourcing info as to Tamar's age?

    which villages do they actually rotate round, please
    Jess

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Michael View Post
      Little question: do you think it likely that Tamar would have had a child at the age of 50? I've never known anyone else have one that late.
      Didn't Charlie Chaplin have a child quite late in life? I can't remember the age but I thought it was well over 50. I'm sure someone will know the exact age.

      Edit: Just googled and he was 73 when he had his last child.
      Last edited by Kit; 27-12-07, 12:04.
      Kit

      Comment


      • #4
        well,

        I have found tamer and samuel on the 41,

        Class: HO107; Piece 601; Book: 11; Civil Parish: Ibstock; County: Leicestershire; Enumeration District: 3; Folio: 26; Page: 12; Line: 8;

        Michael,

        could you please state where the family members were born ? it would help,

        I presume that Tamer died before the 51? I have had a look for them in the 51 cens, and not found them
        Julie
        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

        .......I find dead people

        Comment


        • #5
          Sorry, I should have been a bit more specific. The 1775 date for Tamar's birth came from a cousin's GR tree - no document mentioned so I think it was probably a guess based on the dates of birth of her children (1800 to 1825), her marriage (1799) and her husband's date of birth (1774) - the latter two are documented.

          Hmm, I've just found a couple more records which muddy the waters even further. In 1841 in Misterton there's a record of Joseph Carter (30), Samuel (27), Robert (25), Edward (24) and Jane (20), along with William Hart (18). Most of the names correspond with my information, as do the occupations (all the men are farmers) and there's a Hart in there as well, so it's definitely the same family, but the ages are quite a way out, so I would conclude that the tree I've obtained the information on Edward's siblings from is inaccurate, except that some are confirmed by baptismal records (Joseph 1801, Samuel 1806; no record for Robert, Edward or Jane). They're all simply listed as "born in county", although the tree gives their birthplace as Carlton (near Market Bosworth).

          In 1851 Edward is again in Misterton, given as aged 33, still a farmer, married to Mary Ann (23), with a son James (6 months) and William Hart (21), who is listed as Edward's nephew although brother-in-law seems more likely. Edward's birthplace is given as Heclescote Grange (William likewise), Mary's Shelton Magna, James's Walcote. Jane isn't there, although she's 11 in 1861 so I'd have expected her to be around in 1851. In 1861 Edward and Mary Ann are in Lubenham, with Jane and some more children, all of whose birthplaces are given as Lubenham (corroborated by Jane's birth certificate). The parents' birthplace are "Leicestershire NK"; Mary Ann is 33, which fits with the age given a decade earlier - Edward is 36 (my original source for the 1825 estimate of his dob, since I've only just found the earlier entries, but would expect the latter to be more accurate), which doesn't. In 1871 they're still in Lubenham, with birthplaces Nelson (Edward) and Markfield (MA), supposedly aged 46 and 43 respectively. Eek. Edward died in 1872.

          In 1841, Uzziah Hart (45), Mary (40), Harriot (9), Uzziah (5), Samuel (3) and Thomas (2) are living in Markfield - all born in county.
          Michael, aged 1/4 of a century

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for that Julie. There's a death registration for Tamar Carter in Market Bosworth in June 1846, I assume that's her, although there's no age given which isn't a great help.
            Michael, aged 1/4 of a century

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes Michael,

              thats the one I saw and did wonder if that was her.. wasnt sure if mkt bosworth came under which bit though...

              have you found a death for samuel?? or him on later census?
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              .......I find dead people

              Comment


              • #8
                I have just looked and found a burial for Tamar Carter..

                TAMAR CARTER buried 29 MAY 1846 age 71 at NAILSTONE

                which gives a birth yr of 1775

                think this is the one on ancestry?? Michael?

                You might like to check out this site

                FamilyHistoryOnline - searchable databases for family history & genealogy in England, Wales & Australia

                it is very helpful in tying things together once you get the hang of it
                Last edited by Darksecretz; 27-12-07, 18:26. Reason: Copyright
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think that this needs to be broken down into smaller bitesize bits,

                  perhaps by tracking the families thro the census, and seeing what leads where? might help unravel things?

                  Isaac Carter is consistant with giving his POB as Hugglescoat I think it is, but couldnt see a bapt there for him on Hugh wallis, will have a look on IGI, the only isaac carter i can see bapt in hugglescote in 1844, but nothing else
                  Julie
                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                  .......I find dead people

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have many rellies over 50 parenting kids.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Although 50 isn't an impossible age to have a child, particularly if you have given birth regularly, it is a bit suspect and I would be examining the eldest daughter's morals quite carefully, lol.

                      When did Mary, c1800, marry?

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hadn't thought of that one OC... Mary married in 1827 so I suppose it's possible she could have been having a fling two years earlier. If the ages on the 1841 are presumed to be more likely to be accurate than those later, Edward would in fact have been born c1817 rather than 1825, but he had a sister who was four years younger so Tamar would still have been 47 then.

                        I've just looked up Nailstone - it's fairly close to the other villages the Carters have turned up in so far, so that's probably the right one thanks Julie.

                        Two further clues:

                        Marriage certificate of Edward Carter and Mary Ann Hart, 1849 - the bride's father is William Hart (farmer) and the witnesses are William and Eliza Hart.

                        Will of Edward Carter, 1876 - he entrusts the running of his farm to his brothers-in-law Philip and William Hart, which would fit in with the Harts being a farming family - Edward would have been confident that they'd know what they were doing with it.

                        So we're looking for a family including two Williams, Eliza and Philip... and here they are in 1851, in Marston Trussell, Northants (HO107/2079, folio 132, page14):

                        William Hart, 48, farmer and grazier, b Knighton Leics
                        Mary Hart, 46, Shepston Magna (? - difficult to read and I can't find a placename that fits) Leics
                        Eliza Hart, 19, Markfield Leics
                        Charles Hart, 17, Lub(b)enham Leics
                        Louisa Hart, 15, ditto
                        George Hart, 13, ditto
                        Philip Hart, 10, ditto
                        Albert Hart, 8, ditto
                        Frederick Hart, 6, ditto
                        Thomas Hart, 4, Marston Trussell Northants
                        Robert Hart, 2, ditto
                        Emily Hart, under 2 months, ditto
                        Isaac Carter (visitor - presumably Edward's brother), 24, Leics

                        10 kids, and with at least two who'd left home by then - they must have been busy!

                        William Hart jnr, one of the brothers-in-law Edward mentions in the will, is in Theddingworth in 1871 (RG10/3225, folio 107, page 2), married to Mary Anne (13 years his senior), with children William, George, Mary Anne, Mary and John. Philip, the other, is in Thorpe Lubenham, Northants, married to Eliza, with children Edith, Jane and John.
                        Michael, aged 1/4 of a century

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Um, adult ages (15 and over) were rounded down to the nearest figure ending -0 or 5, so in that sense, 1841 is the least reliable for ages.

                          OC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That's what I thought, until I started finding that some enumerators rounded them and some didn't - the five Carters in 1841 were recorded as 30, 27, 25, 24 (Edward) and 20. Possibly if there were two or three not that far apart in age they gave the exact ages to avoid giving the impression that they were twins/triplets?
                            Michael, aged 1/4 of a century

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oh Michael, I wish your enumerator had been on my round! I have what must be the most useless census entry ever:

                              James Holden 70
                              James Holden 15
                              James Holden 15
                              James Holden 15
                              Jane Holden - age not known!!!!

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Regarding Tamar's age - the point is that she is a woman. Generally they have finished childbearing by their mid to late 40s, as they are less fertile and enter the menopause. Men can father children at any time - Charlie Chaplin was, I think, in his 80s when he fathered a child.
                                ~ with love from Little Nell~
                                Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Michael,

                                  The only place that I can think of that has magna attached to it,

                                  re this bit-

                                  Mary Hart, 46, Shepston Magna (? - difficult to read and I can't find a placename that fits) Leics

                                  Would be SHEEPY MAGNA, with is very near to Atherstone, in Warks. ??

                                  Sheepy Magna, Atherstone, UK - Google Maps

                                  Sheepy Magna
                                  Julie
                                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                  .......I find dead people

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Thanks for the suggestions, will have a closer look later as I happen to be in Warsaw now. In the meantime, happy new year everyone!
                                    Michael, aged 1/4 of a century

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