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The winner of WDWTYA? 13th December 2007 is......

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  • The winner of WDWTYA? 13th December 2007 is......

    maggie_4_7

    Well done maggie!!

  • #2
    Well done Maggie - looking forward to seeing what's your brickwall



    Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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    • #3
      maggie confratulations enjoy brenda xxx

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      • #4
        Good Grief...

        Thank you.

        mmmmm well I have a few brick walls but the major one is my great great grandfather and grandmother's marriage. We can find no record of it. I don't think we'll ever find it.

        John and Caroline Kendall (nee Cook)

        Caroline was born in Docking, Norfolk by all her census returns in abt 1817 and we believe her. We know she gave birth to a daughter who she called Eliza in March 1836 in Docking Norfolk, Caroline was unmarried at that time. Caroline's father was called William Cook and he was a blacksmith.

        How she met John and where she met him we have no idea but they are married in 1841 and living in Holborn, him a tailor and her calling herself his wife with Eliza at 4 years old.

        HO 107/671/3 Queens Square, St George the Martyr Parish

        By the end of 1841 they were living at 3 Old North St, Holborn where their first child together, Caroline Hannah, was born.

        By 1848 they were living at 3 Crown Place, Aldgate where my great grandfather John James was born on 29th Februry 1849

        My great great grandfather John Kendall died in November 1848 at the age of 30 while living at 3 Crown Place before his son was born.

        By 1851 Caroline was living at 21 Minories with Eliza, Caroline, John and Mary Ann who had been born one month earlier. Mary Ann was the product of a relationship Caroline had with a man called James Kirby (another tailor) some 10 years her junior who happened to be her dead husband's cousin who was living with her and the family. Caroline was Head of house and running a Tailoring business and lodging house.

        James Kirby's parents were John and Sarah Kirby (nee Kendall) obviously my great great grandfather's father's sister perhaps!

        John and Sarah Kirby were both born in Northamptonshire and living in Ashley in 1841where they married in 1812 and had their children including James the youngest.

        It appears that James Kirby had gone off travelling, he becomes what can only be described as a wandering soul we have tracked him through the census until he dies he never married. Baby Mary Ann died at 11 months old in 1852.

        Caroline marries a man called Thomas Hall some ten years her junior in 1858 (this is how I know her father's name I have that certificate). Unfortunately it appears poor Thomas bites the dust by 1871 when Caroline is now calling herself a widow again on the 1871 census! Although we haven't confirmed his death yet I am suspicious, our Caroline seems to be very unlucky in the husband and men department.

        We have no idea where gg grandfather John Kendall was born or who his parents are or where he met, or knew Caroline and no record of their marriage. The only clues we have are Ashley, Northamptonshire - Docking in Norfolk and the house in Queens Square.

        There is only a small time frame 1837 - 1841 or even 1848 if they married at some time not necessarily before Caroline Hannah was born.

        So if you're not asleep by now...

        xx
        Maggie

        EDIT to say: I do apologise that's a very long and very boring story but I just have to tell it for anything to make sense really
        Last edited by Guest; 15-12-07, 01:48.

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        • #5
          Congratulations Maggie.

          I don't suppose it's possible for a ref number to be logged wrongly is it? The thing is that there is a Caroline Cook marriage July-Sept 1839 - St Pancras Ref 1 - 300 and exactly the same for John Kendall but ref 1 - 297.
          Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
            Congratulations Maggie.

            I don't suppose it's possible for a ref number to be logged wrongly is it? The thing is that there is a Caroline Cook marriage July-Sept 1839 - St Pancras Ref 1 - 300 and exactly the same for John Kendall but ref 1 - 297.
            I spent ages faffing with that, only to find the Kendall marriage is on the IGI....spouse Ann Jones (from memory) and she is listed in the GRO indexes correctly!

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            • #7
              It seems to me the only option (if you haven't already tried!) is to get hold of a copy of the PR's for Ashley in Northants and see if you can sory out the family of Sarah Kirby/Kendall. If you can find her male siblings, then as you say, there's a chance one of them is John Kirby's father (or of course one of her sisters might have given birth outside marriage!).

              Maybe John was also born in Ashley???

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
                Congratulations Maggie.

                I don't suppose it's possible for a ref number to be logged wrongly is it? The thing is that there is a Caroline Cook marriage July-Sept 1839 - St Pancras Ref 1 - 300 and exactly the same for John Kendall but ref 1 - 297.
                It's funny you should say that, we found those two ages ago and 'we' thought it strange. So close but so far apart as it were.

                But I think we confirmed that it's just a coincidence, can't remember why now.

                I think I looked at the written images on Free BMD and they are clearly hand written as those volume and page numbers for each respective party. I'm not sure how those written indexes are/were compiled. The transcription is correct but I suppose its possible that someone got it wrong at source or am I talking out of my bottom? Is it possible? What was the process in those days?

                xx

                Maggie

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                  I spent ages faffing with that, only to find the Kendall marriage is on the IGI....spouse Ann Jones (from memory) and she is listed in the GRO indexes correctly!
                  Yes that was it.

                  ..and Caroline Cook's spouse was Thomas Westley if I remember correctly.

                  xx

                  Maggie

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                  • #10
                    Oh well - you can't win them all as they say. Sorry Maggie
                    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                      It seems to me the only option (if you haven't already tried!) is to get hold of a copy of the PR's for Ashley in Northants and see if you can sory out the family of Sarah Kirby/Kendall. If you can find her male siblings, then as you say, there's a chance one of them is John Kirby's father (or of course one of her sisters might have given birth outside marriage!).

                      Maybe John was also born in Ashley???

                      Well that's our assumption at the moment but we can't find any evidence and for all Sarah's declaration of having been born in Ashley on various census' we can't find any evidence of that either.

                      I think its that old story, embellishments, can't remember, don't want to, not sure, who cares where I was born, when filling in the census. Can't blame them life was hard enough without being cross examined about who, what, how old and where born.

                      They didn't know some of their descendents would be that interested 150 years later!!

                      xx

                      Maggie
                      Last edited by Guest; 14-12-07, 22:16.

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                      • #12
                        When you say you don't have eny evidence that Sarah was born in Ashley, do you mean you have seen the parish registers and ther's no baptism for her??

                        In 1851 there are a few other male Kendall's who think they were born there.....

                        James 1813
                        Jonathan 1789
                        William 1815

                        I know it's not many!

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                        • #13
                          Okay shall we try another.

                          Caroline Hannah Kendall born 7 August 1841 at 3 Old North Street. Appears on the 1851 census at 21 Minories, and then on the 1861 census as a barmaid in Nicholas Lane in the City up the road from the Minories RG9/227.

                          She marries a George Daniel Duff in Croydon Dec 1862 unfortunately poor old Georgie died in abt Sep 1865! Not lucky this lot on the men front either that or they had a little industry of life insurance going on - sorry I jest.

                          Anyway no siting again for our Caroline Hannah.

                          xx

                          Maggie

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                            When you say you don't have eny evidence that Sarah was born in Ashley, do you mean you have seen the parish registers and ther's no baptism for her??

                            In 1851 there are a few other male Kendall's who think they were born there.....

                            James 1813
                            Jonathan 1789
                            William 1815

                            I know it's not many!
                            Yeah we found them and we think that could be 'them' but there was something that we decided they weren't. No I haven't seen the parish registers. I suppose I was wanting some evidence of the marriage of John and Caroline before I go trekking off to Northamptonshire. We have Sarah and John Kirby's marriage entry.

                            We've been to Docking but I know thats the key to go there just wanted a bit more evidence on-line, before we go on another wild goose chase. There's so many Kendalls on the border of Leics, Northants, Beds.

                            oh well...

                            xx
                            Mggie

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by maggie_4_7 View Post
                              The transcription is correct but I suppose its possible that someone got it wrong at source or am I talking out of my bottom? Is it possible? What was the process in those days?
                              How long have you got??!!! lolol This is as short as I can do!

                              This was the procedure for C of E marriages to get the records to the GRO (never mind what else had to happen!)

                              At the end of the quarter the vicar of the parish would hand copy the details of each marriage that had been celebrated in his parish during the past three months onto special summary sheets issued be the GRO.

                              Up to 1852 the summary sheets had room for four marriages to be written on each side of each document. After 1852 the forms were altered and had room for two marriages on each side.

                              Lets say our vicar had 11 marriages to make note of and it was 1855. That meant he would complete five full sides of paper and half of the last side.

                              He would send the three sheets of paper (5½ completed sides) to the GRO.

                              When they arrived the GRO clerks would put them in a pile relative to the district and subdistrict of the parish. When they thought most records had been received (some vicars would be months or even years late with their returns!!) the clerks would take up all the loose sheets sent by the vicars (for marriages many sheets would also come from Registrars, some for civil marriages and some for non-conformist marriages. There would also be records received from synagogues and Quaker meeting houses)....and the sheets would be numbered, starting with page one for the first record for a district and finishing with whatever page for the end of the district. (that's a page number for each side of each document)

                              Then the clerks would hand write the names of each bride and groom, along with the district name and number and the page number on which their name appeared, on some sort of card index system (apparently no one at the GRO now knows exactly how the Victorian indexing was done!) So page one for District X would have four index cards written for the two brides and two grooms. In the case of our vicars records, there would be five page numbers allocated to the first ten marriages and a single page number for the last marriage as the twelfth marriage did not happen!

                              Once the had all the cards written out, they would need to be sorted into alphabetical order. Then the cards from all the other districts in Eng/Wales would need to be incorporated and the whole lot sorted into alphabetical order. Then all that was needed was for someone to copy everything to make the quarterly index, without making any errors!!

                              Are you asleep yet??!
                              Last edited by Merry Monty Montgomery; 14-12-07, 22:51.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by maggie_4_7 View Post
                                I suppose I was wanting some evidence of the marriage of John and Caroline before I go trekking off to Northamptonshire.

                                Where in London are you?? (sorry, you don't have to answer that!! lol)

                                Have you ever been to the LDS Family History centre at Hyde Park?? They would be able to get the film of the PRs for you to view there for a small fee (about £3).

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                                • #17
                                  :D :D LOL

                                  zzzzzzzz

                                  So are you saying that a mistake could have been made and 'they' could be ours and some dippy person in the line married 'em off to the wrong person 'cos he (had to be a he no woman would have been allowed with such important information) got the pages mixed up?

                                  But see we did what you did, we crosschecked it with various sources, however if a mistake was made at source it would always be transcribed/indexed wrong, yeah I'm clutching at straws!!

                                  Actually to be honest reading that process I think they need a round of applause because they got a lot right didn't they.

                                  xx

                                  Maggie

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                                    Where in London are you?? (sorry, you don't have to answer that!! lol)

                                    Have you ever been to the LDS Family History centre at Hyde Park?? They would be able to get the film of the PRs for you to view there for a small fee (about £3).
                                    oh I didn't know that. I did check the other day where they were in London. I wasn't sure of the process. Do you have to make an appointment or can you just turn up? I am a bit gauche when it comes to these things.

                                    Oh yeah sorry I'm in Shoreditch so not far from Hyde Park.

                                    xx

                                    Maggie
                                    Last edited by Guest; 14-12-07, 23:00.

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                                    • #19
                                      As at least one of the marriages was on the IGI and the source for that would be the Parish register, then it's very unlikely there is any mistake in this case.

                                      I think the usual sorts of errors would be mis-spelled names, dodgy reading or writing of page numbers, misreading of district names, which might be made worse by the clerk then altering the district number to match what he THOUGHT the district name should be, and a 1001 other less obvious things.

                                      The biggest mistake and possible the most frequent would be total omission of the marriage altogether!! Either because the vicar never did his return, or missed off a marriage or two, or when the clerk at the GRO was making his card index, he turned two pages at once or 1001 other things again!

                                      It has been estimated that between 1 and 2% of the GRO entries (inc missing ones as PR's have been compared to the GRO records in small samples) have some sort of error. Many of these may be obvious to us, such as strange name spellings that can be picked up easily, but some would be impossible to spot under normal circumstances............

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by maggie_4_7 View Post
                                        oh I didn't know that. I did check the other day where they were in London. I wasn't sure of the process. Do you have to make an appointment or can you just turn up? I am a bit gauche when it comes to these things.

                                        Oh yeah sorry I'm in Shoreditch so not far from Hyde Park.

                                        xx

                                        Maggie
                                        I would imagine you would have to call there to order anything so they could take your money!! Most films are ordered in from the States (I think)

                                        Then you would need to go back when the film arrived to view it. I think they can keep the films for several weeks to allow you to spend plenty of time on them!

                                        Here's their website:

                                        Home - Hyde Park Regional Family History Centre

                                        it does say....(amongst other things) "Microfilms of church records of more than 8500 English and Welsh parishes" so you might get lucky and they might have the PR in stock!

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