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View Full Version : The winner of WDWTYA? 13th December 2007 is......



Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 08:04
maggie_4_7

Well done maggie!!

JBee
14-12-07, 12:44
Well done Maggie - looking forward to seeing what's your brickwall

brenmac
14-12-07, 18:32
maggie confratulations enjoy brenda xxx

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 20:22
Good Grief...

Thank you.

mmmmm well I have a few brick walls but the major one is my great great grandfather and grandmother's marriage. We can find no record of it. I don't think we'll ever find it.

John and Caroline Kendall (nee Cook)

Caroline was born in Docking, Norfolk by all her census returns in abt 1817 and we believe her. We know she gave birth to a daughter who she called Eliza in March 1836 in Docking Norfolk, Caroline was unmarried at that time. Caroline's father was called William Cook and he was a blacksmith.

How she met John and where she met him we have no idea but they are married in 1841 and living in Holborn, him a tailor and her calling herself his wife with Eliza at 4 years old.

HO 107/671/3 Queens Square, St George the Martyr Parish

By the end of 1841 they were living at 3 Old North St, Holborn where their first child together, Caroline Hannah, was born.

By 1848 they were living at 3 Crown Place, Aldgate where my great grandfather John James was born on 29th Februry 1849

My great great grandfather John Kendall died in November 1848 at the age of 30 while living at 3 Crown Place before his son was born.

By 1851 Caroline was living at 21 Minories with Eliza, Caroline, John and Mary Ann who had been born one month earlier. Mary Ann was the product of a relationship Caroline had with a man called James Kirby (another tailor) some 10 years her junior who happened to be her dead husband's cousin who was living with her and the family. Caroline was Head of house and running a Tailoring business and lodging house.

James Kirby's parents were John and Sarah Kirby (nee Kendall) obviously my great great grandfather's father's sister perhaps!

John and Sarah Kirby were both born in Northamptonshire and living in Ashley in 1841where they married in 1812 and had their children including James the youngest.

It appears that James Kirby had gone off travelling, he becomes what can only be described as a wandering soul we have tracked him through the census until he dies he never married. Baby Mary Ann died at 11 months old in 1852.

Caroline marries a man called Thomas Hall some ten years her junior in 1858 (this is how I know her father's name I have that certificate). Unfortunately it appears poor Thomas bites the dust by 1871 when Caroline is now calling herself a widow again on the 1871 census! Although we haven't confirmed his death yet I am suspicious, our Caroline seems to be very unlucky in the husband and men department.

We have no idea where gg grandfather John Kendall was born or who his parents are or where he met, or knew Caroline and no record of their marriage. The only clues we have are Ashley, Northamptonshire - Docking in Norfolk and the house in Queens Square.

There is only a small time frame 1837 - 1841 or even 1848 if they married at some time not necessarily before Caroline Hannah was born.

So if you're not asleep by now...

xx
Maggie

EDIT to say: I do apologise that's a very long and very boring story but I just have to tell it for anything to make sense really

Chrissie Smiff
14-12-07, 21:57
Congratulations Maggie.

I don't suppose it's possible for a ref number to be logged wrongly is it? The thing is that there is a Caroline Cook marriage July-Sept 1839 - St Pancras Ref 1 - 300 and exactly the same for John Kendall but ref 1 - 297.

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 22:01
Congratulations Maggie.

I don't suppose it's possible for a ref number to be logged wrongly is it? The thing is that there is a Caroline Cook marriage July-Sept 1839 - St Pancras Ref 1 - 300 and exactly the same for John Kendall but ref 1 - 297.

I spent ages faffing with that, only to find the Kendall marriage is on the IGI....spouse Ann Jones (from memory) and she is listed in the GRO indexes correctly!

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 22:03
It seems to me the only option (if you haven't already tried!) is to get hold of a copy of the PR's for Ashley in Northants and see if you can sory out the family of Sarah Kirby/Kendall. If you can find her male siblings, then as you say, there's a chance one of them is John Kirby's father (or of course one of her sisters might have given birth outside marriage!).

Maybe John was also born in Ashley???

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:04
Congratulations Maggie.

I don't suppose it's possible for a ref number to be logged wrongly is it? The thing is that there is a Caroline Cook marriage July-Sept 1839 - St Pancras Ref 1 - 300 and exactly the same for John Kendall but ref 1 - 297.

It's funny you should say that, we found those two ages ago and 'we' thought it strange. So close but so far apart as it were.

But I think we confirmed that it's just a coincidence, can't remember why now.

I think I looked at the written images on Free BMD and they are clearly hand written as those volume and page numbers for each respective party. I'm not sure how those written indexes are/were compiled. The transcription is correct but I suppose its possible that someone got it wrong at source or am I talking out of my bottom? Is it possible? What was the process in those days?

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:06
I spent ages faffing with that, only to find the Kendall marriage is on the IGI....spouse Ann Jones (from memory) and she is listed in the GRO indexes correctly!

Yes that was it.

..and Caroline Cook's spouse was Thomas Westley if I remember correctly.

xx

Maggie

Chrissie Smiff
14-12-07, 22:14
Oh well - you can't win them all as they say. Sorry Maggie:)

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:14
It seems to me the only option (if you haven't already tried!) is to get hold of a copy of the PR's for Ashley in Northants and see if you can sory out the family of Sarah Kirby/Kendall. If you can find her male siblings, then as you say, there's a chance one of them is John Kirby's father (or of course one of her sisters might have given birth outside marriage!).

Maybe John was also born in Ashley???


Well that's our assumption at the moment but we can't find any evidence and for all Sarah's declaration of having been born in Ashley on various census' we can't find any evidence of that either.

I think its that old story, embellishments, can't remember, don't want to, not sure, who cares where I was born, when filling in the census. Can't blame them life was hard enough without being cross examined about who, what, how old and where born.

They didn't know some of their descendents would be that interested 150 years later!!

xx

Maggie

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 22:20
When you say you don't have eny evidence that Sarah was born in Ashley, do you mean you have seen the parish registers and ther's no baptism for her??

In 1851 there are a few other male Kendall's who think they were born there.....

James 1813
Jonathan 1789
William 1815

I know it's not many!

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:31
Okay shall we try another.

Caroline Hannah Kendall born 7 August 1841 at 3 Old North Street. Appears on the 1851 census at 21 Minories, and then on the 1861 census as a barmaid in Nicholas Lane in the City up the road from the Minories RG9/227.

She marries a George Daniel Duff in Croydon Dec 1862 unfortunately poor old Georgie died in abt Sep 1865! Not lucky this lot on the men front either that or they had a little industry of life insurance going on - sorry I jest.

Anyway no siting again for our Caroline Hannah.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:41
When you say you don't have eny evidence that Sarah was born in Ashley, do you mean you have seen the parish registers and ther's no baptism for her??

In 1851 there are a few other male Kendall's who think they were born there.....

James 1813
Jonathan 1789
William 1815

I know it's not many!

Yeah we found them and we think that could be 'them' but there was something that we decided they weren't. No I haven't seen the parish registers. I suppose I was wanting some evidence of the marriage of John and Caroline before I go trekking off to Northamptonshire. We have Sarah and John Kirby's marriage entry.

We've been to Docking but I know thats the key to go there just wanted a bit more evidence on-line, before we go on another wild goose chase. There's so many Kendalls on the border of Leics, Northants, Beds.

oh well...

xx
Mggie

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 22:46
The transcription is correct but I suppose its possible that someone got it wrong at source or am I talking out of my bottom? Is it possible? What was the process in those days?



How long have you got??!!! lolol :) This is as short as I can do!

This was the procedure for C of E marriages to get the records to the GRO (never mind what else had to happen!)

At the end of the quarter the vicar of the parish would hand copy the details of each marriage that had been celebrated in his parish during the past three months onto special summary sheets issued be the GRO.

Up to 1852 the summary sheets had room for four marriages to be written on each side of each document. After 1852 the forms were altered and had room for two marriages on each side.

Lets say our vicar had 11 marriages to make note of and it was 1855. That meant he would complete five full sides of paper and half of the last side.

He would send the three sheets of paper (5½ completed sides) to the GRO.

When they arrived the GRO clerks would put them in a pile relative to the district and subdistrict of the parish. When they thought most records had been received (some vicars would be months or even years late with their returns!!) the clerks would take up all the loose sheets sent by the vicars (for marriages many sheets would also come from Registrars, some for civil marriages and some for non-conformist marriages. There would also be records received from synagogues and Quaker meeting houses)....and the sheets would be numbered, starting with page one for the first record for a district and finishing with whatever page for the end of the district. (that's a page number for each side of each document)

Then the clerks would hand write the names of each bride and groom, along with the district name and number and the page number on which their name appeared, on some sort of card index system (apparently no one at the GRO now knows exactly how the Victorian indexing was done!) So page one for District X would have four index cards written for the two brides and two grooms. In the case of our vicars records, there would be five page numbers allocated to the first ten marriages and a single page number for the last marriage as the twelfth marriage did not happen!

Once the had all the cards written out, they would need to be sorted into alphabetical order. Then the cards from all the other districts in Eng/Wales would need to be incorporated and the whole lot sorted into alphabetical order. Then all that was needed was for someone to copy everything to make the quarterly index, without making any errors!!

Are you asleep yet??!

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 22:48
I suppose I was wanting some evidence of the marriage of John and Caroline before I go trekking off to Northamptonshire.


Where in London are you?? (sorry, you don't have to answer that!! lol)

Have you ever been to the LDS Family History centre at Hyde Park?? They would be able to get the film of the PRs for you to view there for a small fee (about £3).

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:55
:D :D LOL

zzzzzzzz

So are you saying that a mistake could have been made and 'they' could be ours and some dippy person in the line married 'em off to the wrong person 'cos he (had to be a he no woman would have been allowed with such important information) got the pages mixed up?

But see we did what you did, we crosschecked it with various sources, however if a mistake was made at source it would always be transcribed/indexed wrong, yeah I'm clutching at straws!!

Actually to be honest reading that process I think they need a round of applause because they got a lot right didn't they.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 22:57
Where in London are you?? (sorry, you don't have to answer that!! lol)

Have you ever been to the LDS Family History centre at Hyde Park?? They would be able to get the film of the PRs for you to view there for a small fee (about £3).

oh I didn't know that. I did check the other day where they were in London. I wasn't sure of the process. Do you have to make an appointment or can you just turn up? I am a bit gauche when it comes to these things.

Oh yeah sorry I'm in Shoreditch so not far from Hyde Park.

xx

Maggie

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 23:02
As at least one of the marriages was on the IGI and the source for that would be the Parish register, then it's very unlikely there is any mistake in this case.

I think the usual sorts of errors would be mis-spelled names, dodgy reading or writing of page numbers, misreading of district names, which might be made worse by the clerk then altering the district number to match what he THOUGHT the district name should be, and a 1001 other less obvious things.

The biggest mistake and possible the most frequent would be total omission of the marriage altogether!! Either because the vicar never did his return, or missed off a marriage or two, or when the clerk at the GRO was making his card index, he turned two pages at once or 1001 other things again!

It has been estimated that between 1 and 2% of the GRO entries (inc missing ones as PR's have been compared to the GRO records in small samples) have some sort of error. Many of these may be obvious to us, such as strange name spellings that can be picked up easily, but some would be impossible to spot under normal circumstances............

Merry Monty Montgomery
14-12-07, 23:07
oh I didn't know that. I did check the other day where they were in London. I wasn't sure of the process. Do you have to make an appointment or can you just turn up? I am a bit gauche when it comes to these things.

Oh yeah sorry I'm in Shoreditch so not far from Hyde Park.

xx

Maggie

I would imagine you would have to call there to order anything so they could take your money!! Most films are ordered in from the States (I think)

Then you would need to go back when the film arrived to view it. I think they can keep the films for several weeks to allow you to spend plenty of time on them!

Here's their website:

Home - Hyde Park Regional Family History Centre (http://www.hydeparkfhc.org/home.php)

it does say....(amongst other things) "Microfilms of church records of more than 8500 English and Welsh parishes" so you might get lucky and they might have the PR in stock!

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 23:13
I would imagine you would have to call there to order anything so they could take your money!! Most films are ordered in from the States (I think)

Then you would need to go back when the film arrived to view it. I think they can keep the films for several weeks to allow you to spend plenty of time on them!

Here's their website:

Home - Hyde Park Regional Family History Centre (http://www.hydeparkfhc.org/home.php)

it does say....(amongst other things) "Microfilms of church records of more than 8500 English and Welsh parishes" so you might get lucky and they might have the PR in stock!

oooh see I've never seen that particular site before. Thank you.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 23:32
Okay shall we try another.

Caroline Hannah Kendall born 7 August 1841 at 3 Old North Street. Appears on the 1851 census at 21 Minories, and then on the 1861 census as a barmaid in Nicholas Lane in the City up the road from the Minories RG9/227.

She marries a George Daniel Duff in Croydon Dec 1862 unfortunately poor old Georgie died in abt Sep 1865! Not lucky this lot on the men front either that or they had a little industry of life insurance going on - sorry I jest.

Anyway no siting again for our Caroline Hannah. We've lost her!

xx

Maggie

I did have another brick wall ^^^ or have I used all your patience up already? :p

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
14-12-07, 23:39
Maggie, just give us a day or two to work on that one!

maggie_4_7
14-12-07, 23:50
Maggie, just give us a day or two to work on that one!

Yes sorry I am a bit keen. I thought John and Caroline was a dead end already.

I do know that if anyone ever researches me and puts me in a family tree it'll be a lot easier, I have travelled far and wide but came back to my roots and will spend the next 20 years on the computer. Easy peasy.

xx

Maggie

JBee
15-12-07, 01:17
I think the LDS have a distribution centre near Birmingham for films/fisches that are ordered.

I think they usually say they'll be in the LDS centre in about two weeks after ordering unless they are already out.

Don't know how many copies of each one is available

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-12-07, 09:31
I wouldn't say John and Caropline are a complete dead end my any means, just that we can't do anything as the appropriate records are not online!

As for Mrs Duff.....I'm sure you know this, but to save others looking the same as I did.......this:

Deaths Q2 1872
DUFF Caroline 29 Pancras 1b 71


isn't her! lol

maggie_4_7
15-12-07, 10:41
I wouldn't say John and Caropline are a complete dead end my any means, just that we can't do anything as the appropriate records are not online!

As for Mrs Duff.....I'm sure you know this, but to save others looking the same as I did.......this:

Deaths Q2 1872
DUFF Caroline 29 Pancras 1b 71


isn't her! lol

That's not her. I think that one was born a Duff.

When I said dead end I meant for this purpose.

xx

Maggie

Uncle John
15-12-07, 15:15
Merry - there is one other error (among many) that I came across the other day. This involves the collating of all the quarterly index pages for a particular initial letter and then numbering them sequentially (looks as if they used a numbering machine). I found one instance where two successive pages had been transposed before numbering. Unfortunately Ancestry filmed and indexed the pages in numerical rather than alphabetical order, so the Millers came after the Millses.

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-12-07, 15:23
Don't quite understand what you mean Uncle John!?? Why would n alphabetical list be numbered sequentially?

maggie, the Caroline Duff who died in 1872 was most likely the wife of William Duff. They were both from the Isle of Man.

Uncle John
15-12-07, 16:10
Don't quite understand what you mean Uncle John!?? Why would n alphabetical list be numbered sequentially?

Right then, Ancestry FreeBMD births, 1838, quarter 1, letter M.

Image 27 is page number 438: Miller to Millington
Image 28 is page number 439: Mills to Minal
Image 29 is page number 440: Millington to Mills

Geddit now? My Jane (you may remember, which of 3 births in the same quarter in Newcastle) was on Image 28, which starts half way through Mills. Go back one page and you are back to Millington. Go forward one page and there is the start of Mills.

Merry Monty Montgomery
15-12-07, 16:23
Yes, got it now. Those typed pages would have been made some time at the beginning of the 20th C as replacements for hand written pages. I should imagine the pages were typed before they were stamped with a page number, so the pages were placed in the wrong order before they were numbered and bound.

These things are sent to try us! lol

Uncle John
15-12-07, 23:24
I should imagine the pages were typed before they were stamped with a page number, so the pages were placed in the wrong order before they were numbered and bound.

I think that's what I said in the first place :p

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-12-07, 10:07
I thought you were talking about the entries not the pages!

maggie_4_7
16-12-07, 10:21
How do the LDS transcribe the IGI entries, ie from what source?

xx

Maggie

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-12-07, 10:34
From the Parish Registers or the Bishop's transcripts usually.

Certainly NOT from the civil records. (though submitted entries can come from anywhere, inc the imagination of the submitter!)

KiteRunner
16-12-07, 16:02
That's true for England and Wales (as far as I know), but there are certainly lots of Irish entries taken from the civil registration records, and I think Scottish ones too?

Merry Monty Montgomery
16-12-07, 18:07
Oooh, yes...sorry! I don't have any Irish of Scots ancestors, so I never look at those! (some of the Indian ones also have birth records)

Uncle John
17-12-07, 10:39
My German ones (RC) came from the church registers.

KiteRunner
17-12-07, 13:19
To get back on topic...

I think I may have found Caroline senior's father on the 1841 census. Don't know if you already have this?

HO107/782 Book 6; Civil Parish Docking; County Norfolk; Enumeration District 7; Folio 19; Page 30:
Docking, Norfolk
William Cook 53 Blacksmith Y
Mary do 51 Y
William 26 Assistant Y

And in 1851:
HO107/1827 Folio 474 Page 9
Barmer Lane, Docking, Norfolk
William Cooke Head Mar 63 Blacksmith Master Norfolk Beetly(?)
Mary Do Wife Mar 62 Do Massingham
William Do Son U 38 Pauper Do Docking Idiot

KiteRunner
17-12-07, 13:35
And in 1861:
RG9/1250 Folio 57 Page 18
East Street, Docking, Norfolk:
Mary Cook Head W 71 Washerwoman Norfolk Great Massingham
William Cook Son U 48 Almsman (Idiot) Norfolk Docking

In 1871 William (junior) is an inmate in the workhouse in Docking. I can't see Mary, but I can't see a death for her on FreeBMD before the one in Jun 1881 (age 90).

KiteRunner
17-12-07, 13:47
Just to confuse the issue, there is a submitted IGI record for William Cooke born 1815 Docking, son of William Clamp and Mary!

There is also a possible submitted entry for the birth and baptism of William Cook senior at Beetley in 1789, but I wouldn't like to guess as to its accuracy (it gives the names of his parents as Robert Cook and Elizabeth Webster).

maggie_4_7
17-12-07, 18:30
To get back on topic...

I think I may have found Caroline senior's father on the 1841 census. Don't know if you already have this?

HO107/782 Book 6; Civil Parish Docking; County Norfolk; Enumeration District 7; Folio 19; Page 30:
Docking, Norfolk
William Cook 53 Blacksmith Y
Mary do 51 Y
William 26 Assistant Y

And in 1851:
HO107/1827 Folio 474 Page 9
Barmer Lane, Docking, Norfolk
William Cooke Head Mar 63 Blacksmith Master Norfolk Beetly(?)
Mary Do Wife Mar 62 Do Massingham
William Do Son U 38 Pauper Do Docking Idiot


And in 1861:
RG9/1250 Folio 57 Page 18
East Street, Docking, Norfolk:
Mary Cook Head W 71 Washerwoman Norfolk Great Massingham
William Cook Son U 48 Almsman (Idiot) Norfolk Docking

In 1871 William (junior) is an inmate in the workhouse in Docking. I can't see Mary, but I can't see a death for her on FreeBMD before the one in Jun 1881 (age 90).

Yes we believe that to be Caroline's family, we did find the 1841, 1861 and 1871 but not the 1851 so thats new to me. I was trawling the 1851 Docking census last night because a search never brought up anything and I knew they must be still there in 1851 but then decided to call it day and look again tonight.

I thought these poor souls wouldn't have travelled far. Yes, it looks like poor William junior was mentally challenged as they put it now from birth. Much harsher words in those days. On the 1871 it has 'lunatic from birth' poor soul ended up there because no one left to care for him. That could be Mary's death but I had assumed she'd died before the 1871 census because William junior ended up in the Workhouse and it looks like she had taken care of him until then unless it became to much, or she was in a workhouse somewhere herself or with other family but I can't find Mary on the 1871.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
17-12-07, 18:40
Just to confuse the issue, there is a submitted IGI record for William Cooke born 1815 Docking, son of William Clamp and Mary!

There is also a possible submitted entry for the birth and baptism of William Cook senior at Beetley in 1789, but I wouldn't like to guess as to its accuracy (it gives the names of his parents as Robert Cook and Elizabeth Webster).

Yes we've seen both those sometimes they're more of an hiddrance those IGI entries.

But I hadn't seen the 1851 census with William Cook senior's birth place (Beetley) only the 1841 where it wasn't recorded so its possible although the entry is probably inaccurate that those details maybe a clue when we go check it out properly.

That William Clamp one is well confusing because there are a family of Clamps (horrible name) in and around Docking with all the same sort of names as the Cook family and born around the same times too. Maybe someone's confused themself and crossed over the information when they submitted it. Or the two familys are related in some way.

I suppose they were fairly all inbred up until the railways hit towns in the mid 1840's making travel a bit easier.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
17-12-07, 18:46
Oh and I've not found any more children for that family on the IGI that looks likely.

But I'm thinking the only reason William was still with them in 1841 was because he wasn't able to take care of himself. If they had any others they'd probably gone off and got married and maybe like our Caroline left town for London for a new life. Caroline would have been born abt 1816/17 so only a little bit younger. We figured she got out of town because she'd had an illegitmate child (Eliza) but she did have her baptised.

Oh I do have a question. What does Almsman mean. Is it that the parish would dish out money for him to remain at home, because of his obvious inability to look after himself, rather than be institutionalised because it cost more money for the Union if he was in the Workhouse rather than at home. I have heard of Alms Houses.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
17-12-07, 20:26
The fact that you found that 1851 census, which we couldn't find, with William Cook(e) Master Blacksmith born Beetly. We are pretty sure this is our Cooks I searched the 1861, we assumed William senior had died because we only found Mary and William junior but...

Ref:

RG9; Piece: 1244; Folio: 70B; Page: 20

William Cook aged 73 Ag Lab born in Beetley WIDOW!

What do you think?

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
17-12-07, 23:13
Ooh, I'll have to have a look at that one. There were a couple of possible deaths for him in Docking district in 1854 and 1857 but because the GRO index doesn't give age at death for those years it wasn't possible to be sure. Or should I say, to rule them out.

I was going to say, you'd better post up any more brick walls you have as it looks as if we've finished with that one, but maybe there is more to be found yet!

maggie_4_7
17-12-07, 23:30
Well it was only our John and Caroline Kendall's marriage and the whereabouts of Caroline Hannah Duff nee Kendall's whereabouts after 1860's...

I can't think at the moment other than more children for William and Mary Cook!!!

Or tracking a birth entry for Sarah Kirby nee Kendall (born abt 1791 in Ashley, Northamptonshire on the IGI), we found her husband John Kirby's family.

My two cousins and I are really happy you found the 1851 census because we couldn't find that and that has confirmed William seniors birth place (perhaps) :) and thats given us some more info, also that you've all confirmed what we thought that John and Caroline's marriage isn't to be found on-line (we just wanted some clues to where and what year) we thought perhaps we'd missed something or were being stupid. Also confirmed all the Docking census because sometimes when you're on-line and see information you can clutch at straws so it's good to have fresh eyes and for those fresh eyes to make opinions on the information they see.

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
17-12-07, 23:45
Oh dear, I've just realised what time it is, and I'm getting my North Walshams and North Elmhams mixed up, so I must go to bed. But it could be him - I can't see an obvious one in North ELMHAM in 1851. Seems weird he would go from being a master blacksmith to being an ag lab, though? Think we really need to find his death to sort it out, but that will need either finding a burial or a will, I should think.

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 11:11
Maybe children for William and Mary Cook!!!

Or tracking a birth entry for Sarah Kirby nee Kendall (born abt 1791 in Ashley, Northamptonshire on the IGI), we found her husband John Kirby's family.

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 12:16
There are a few Cook(e)s born in Docking on the 1851 census, but I think we would need access to the Docking parish registers (or William's will) to find out if they were William and Mary's children or not. As far as I can see, the only place that has online Docking PR transcriptions is FreeREG but there aren't any Cook or Cooke baptisms on there.

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 12:24
There are a few Cook(e)s born in Docking on the 1851 census, but I think we would need access to the Docking parish registers (or William's will) to find out if they were William and Mary's children or not. As far as I can see, the only place that has online Docking PR transcriptions is FreeREG but there aren't any Cook or Cooke baptisms on there.

Okay yeah thats what we thought, no worries. We'll go back to Norwich records office at least more armed this time.

Oh and I don't think we'd find any wills, well not for the Cooks anyway they just didn't have anything to leave it seems except 'US' they left us, poor things.

Sometimes this family history really depresses us!

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 12:24
... but having said that, this family in 1871 caught my eye:
Docking, Norfolk
Rampant Horse - Old Workhouse Yd
George Cooke Head Mar 54 Blacksmith & Beer Seller Norfolk Docking
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Do
Caroline Do Daur Unm 22 Nurse Do Do

Looks pretty likely, doesn't it? I'll try to follow them back and forward to see if there is anything to prove it one way or the other...

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 12:33
... but having said that, this family in 1871 caught my eye:
Docking, Norfolk
Rampant Horse - Old Workhouse Yd
George Cooke Head Mar 54 Blacksmith & Beer Seller Norfolk Docking
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Do
Caroline Do Daur Unm 22 Nurse Do Do

Looks pretty likely, doesn't it? I'll try to follow them back and forward to see if there is anything to prove it one way or the other...

oooh.

The Blacksmith thing is a good thing isn't it? We thought that it was good a well established trade, Master Blacksmith, well until the motors overtook the horses that is, but maybe a son! We have got stuck on William and his lot, so sad!

The name Caroline! It's a name that has lasted in our family, we never knew why but having found out about our g g grandmother we think we know why, she was such a strong person it seems. We still have Carolines in the family !!!

I'm clutching at straws again sorry...

George Cooke, SON maybe?


xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 12:36
I'm beginning to think they must belong to your family, Maggie, because I've found the parents in 1861 and they have two children but that Caroline from the 1871 isn't with them, nor anywhere to be found!

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 12:46
Ooh, this is getting exciting! I just found that Caroline in 1861 - and she is a visitor in Pancras! (Birthplace mistranscribed as Dorking which is why she was so hard to find)

The people she is visiting are Richard Newill (I think - it's scrawled) age 40 a Coachman and his wife Anna or possibly Annie, age 42, both born Norfolk but not Docking.

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 13:00
Er, and Maggie, I'm not trying to suggest anything about your family, honest, but this lot are next door to George and his family on the 1851:

Sarah Cooke Head Unmarried 30 Norfolk Docking
Emily Do Natural Daur 10 Do Do
George Do Do Son 6 Do Do
William Do Do Son 5 Do Do
Thomas Do Do Son 1 Do Do
Richard Cooke Natural Son Under 1 m Do Do
Martha Do Sister U 21 Do Do

Some of the names seem to fit, don't they? Off to do more hunting...

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 13:17
Okay, I found that Sarah on the 1841 (it's her because she has baby Emily with her) and it looks as if her parents are Henry and Lydia, who are next door to William and Mary. Annoyingly enough, I can't see George anywhere on that one. But since Henry is an ag lab, I still think George is more likely to be William's son; just forget about Sarah for now!

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 13:19
Er, and Maggie, I'm not trying to suggest anything about your family, honest, but this lot are next door to George and his family on the 1851:

Sarah Cooke Head Unmarried 30 Norfolk Docking
Emily Do Natural Daur 10 Do Do
George Do Do Son 6 Do Do
William Do Do Son 5 Do Do
Thomas Do Do Son 1 Do Do
Richard Cooke Natural Son Under 1 m Do Do
Martha Do Sister U 21 Do Do

Some of the names seem to fit, don't they? Off to do more hunting...

oooer well good I hope they are our Cooks, what could you be suggesting that our girls didn't get married to have babies :) btw my mother wasn't married when she had me...:)

Probably ran in the family if only she'd known - she got it in the neck in the 1950's when she had me. I only wish she was alive today to see all this stuff on her family, she would LOVE IT and so would my Nanny.

hehe nice one :)

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 13:25
If you want to be sure, then it looks as if George's marriage to Elizabeth was Mar 1845
Allen Elizabeth
Cooke George
Playford Elizabeth
Sands John
district Docking vol 13 p93 according to FreeBMD - I haven't checked the image. If you got the marriage cert then it would tell you if William was George's father or not (and perhaps your Caroline might turn out to be a witness, you never know!). But probably you have other certs that are higher priority.

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 13:34
If you want to be sure, then it looks as if George's marriage to Elizabeth was Mar 1845
Allen Elizabeth
Cooke George
Playford Elizabeth
Sands John
district Docking vol 13 p93 according to FreeBMD - I haven't checked the image. If you got the marriage cert then it would tell you if William was George's father or not (and perhaps your Caroline might turn out to be a witness, you never know!). But probably you have other certs that are higher priority.

I do have other certs for priority but you know its that dodgy one that always turns up trumps.

I have most certs that I need at the moment so that could be a fairly good investment. Thanks for that, we never found any of that. I'm such a sceptic I need a DNA check before I think its 'THEM'.

xx

Maggie

PS do you archive these threads or delete, because I need to keep some info that is on it and marriage cert ordered as we speak.

KiteRunner
18-12-07, 13:41
Maggie, I think what happens when the new winner is picked is that the old thread just gets "unstickied" and then slips down the board like any normal Research Advice thread. Once they are finally deleted (1 month after the last posting) there is no way of getting them back.

I'm getting a bit confused with George and Elizabeth now because on the 1881 George is in King's Lynn as a lodger, still married, and I think I've found Elizabeth in London at 137 Manor(?) St, Clapham, married, can't read her age, occupation Matron, birthplace Docking, but "relation to head" is Sister-in-law and the head isn't there! It would make it too easy if s/he was, wouldn't it?! I don't suppose your Caroline lived at that address at all, did she?

This is the reference for Elizabeth:
RG11/634 Folio 77 Page 5

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 14:09
Maggie, I think what happens when the new winner is picked is that the old thread just gets "unstickied" and then slips down the board like any normal Research Advice thread. Once they are finally deleted (1 month after the last posting) there is no way of getting them back.

I'm getting a bit confused with George and Elizabeth now because on the 1881 George is in King's Lynn as a lodger, still married, and I think I've found Elizabeth in London at 137 Manor(?) St, Clapham, married, can't read her age, occupation Matron, birthplace Docking, but "relation to head" is Sister-in-law and the head isn't there! It would make it too easy if s/he was, wouldn't it?! I don't suppose your Caroline lived at that address at all, did she?

This is the reference for Elizabeth:
RG11/634 Folio 77 Page 5

Nah our Caroline is pretty consistent, we have tracked her 1836-1837 Docking, Norfolk and on 1841 Holborn census, 1851 21 Minories, Aldgate, 1861 21 Minories, Aldgate, 1871 Mansell St Aldgate, 1881 Mansell Street, Aldgate and 1891 the City of London Union Infirmary (St Clements, Mile End) where she dies in the July of that year.

Strange thing is we think she's buried in Bow Cemetary which is right behind St Clements and my cousin is the Head of the transcription team for the friends of Tower Hamelts cemetary, she's found a few relatives but not our Caroline, well not yet anyway, but there are 300,000 burials most not marked of course.

Our Caroline would have been a pauper so I don't think we'll find her. We found John Kendall her husband my g g grandfather's burial in St Katherine Coleman with Mary Ann Kirby Kendall who was buried in the same place aged 11 months and not JK's daughter, still ours though, still our Mary Ann ...

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
18-12-07, 14:41
Maggie, I think what happens when the new winner is picked is that the old thread just gets "unstickied" and then slips down the board like any normal Research Advice thread. Once they are finally deleted (1 month after the last posting) there is no way of getting them back.


Yeah I understand that. I'll save it to my archive.

xx

Maggie

maggie_4_7
22-12-07, 11:23
... but having said that, this family in 1871 caught my eye:
Docking, Norfolk
Rampant Horse - Old Workhouse Yd
George Cooke Head Mar 54 Blacksmith & Beer Seller Norfolk Docking
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Do
Caroline Do Daur Unm 22 Nurse Do Do

Looks pretty likely, doesn't it? I'll try to follow them back and forward to see if there is anything to prove it one way or the other...



I'm getting a bit confused with George and Elizabeth now because on the 1881 George is in King's Lynn as a lodger, still married, and I think I've found Elizabeth in London at 137 Manor(?) St, Clapham, married, can't read her age, occupation Matron, birthplace Docking, but "relation to head" is Sister-in-law and the head isn't there! It would make it too easy if s/he was, wouldn't it?! I don't suppose your Caroline lived at that address at all, did she?

This is the reference for Elizabeth:
RG11/634 Folio 77 Page 5

Well the marriage cert of George Cooke and Elizabeth Allen arrived and George's father is William Cooke Blacksmith of Docking so unless there's two William Cooke Blacksmiths floating about in Docking in the 1840's I think we can safely say he's Caroline's brother. Also George Cooke's profession is Blacksmith.

xx

Maggie

KiteRunner
22-12-07, 13:42
Glad to hear that.