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Muggins in Sussex
11-12-07, 21:34
I have the certificate of the couple I believe may have been my grandparents

They were married by " Deputy Superindent Registrar's Certificate"

I have looked at it several times, but only just noticed that it looks as though the signatures of the Bride and Groom were written by the same person!

Is it possible that someone else signed on their behalves??

(I have the cert in photobucket, but have no idea how to post the relevant portion here!)

Christine in Herts
11-12-07, 21:40
Are they signatures? Or do you have a transcription-certificate?

Christine

Muggins in Sussex
11-12-07, 21:45
Hi Chris
I'm pretty sure it's a photocopy - other signatures look different

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-12-07, 21:51
Joan, where did you get the cert from? (and where did they marry?)

Muggins in Sussex
11-12-07, 22:06
Hi Merry,

They married in St George's Church, Altrincham in 1905, and I got the certificate from Cheshire BMD ( it's my wretched Beatrice Webbs causing problems again!!)

In fact it's even odder as it looks to me as though both the witnesses' signatures were written in another same hand - a different one from the bride and groom!!!!

Merry Monty Montgomery
11-12-07, 22:17
Is that C of E?

If it was, it's quite rare to be married by a superintendent registrars certificate. They were normally issued to enable people to marry in a non-conformist church where the registrar would need to be present, though they could be used in the C of E, but normally only if someone changed their mind at the last minute! lol

My gg-grandparents did just the same when they married in 1849!

I can't imagine why the sigs look as they do? No one else should have signed for anyone else. If any party couldn't sign for any reason, they would have had to make their mark instead.

Muggins in Sussex
11-12-07, 22:27
Yes, it is C of E - Family story (hush, hush!) is that the vicar had advised the bride not to go ahead with the wedding

Christine in Herts
11-12-07, 22:29
I have come across one case recently where a C of E wedding followed a Bishop's cert (I think). One or other party hadn't grasped that the Banns had to be called in both churches!

Christine

Muggins in Sussex
11-12-07, 23:02
I have come across one case recently where a C of E wedding followed a Bishop's cert (I think). One or other party hadn't grasped that the Banns had to be called in both churches!

Christine

Hi Christine - I doubt there was a Bishop's Cert in this case - I think the groom was simply " a scurrilous piece of work", as I have been told, and the vicar was not happy about proceeding with the wedding..... and yet......

Olde Crone Holden
12-12-07, 00:25
Muggins

The copy you got from Cheshire Register Office will not be the original, it will be a copy made by the Vicar when he filled in his returns and sent them to the local register office.

The original entry will remain with the church, or probably, by now, in the county records office.

(See how Merry has scared me with her talk of confusing abbreviations, lol!)

OC

KiteRunner
12-12-07, 00:26
I was going to say this on the other thread about sigs, but perhaps it's better on here - the copy of a church marriage cert which comes from the local register office could be one that was copied out by a church official before it was sent to the register office, couldn't it? I think I read in some info that Merry posted up about marriage certs a while ago that the bride and groom etc were supposed to sign both the church copy and the register office's copy? But in some cases for whatever reason, it didn't actually work out like that and the copy sent to the register office ended up being written out as a copy. So for church weddings, you may well have to look at the actual parish register copy to see the proper signatures.

KiteRunner
12-12-07, 00:34
Yes, there were supposed to be two to sign, I'm just saying that in some cases the actual people didn't sign the second one.

Olde Crone Holden
12-12-07, 13:23
Tom

I don't understand what you mean - I would EXPECT a filmed copy to have the same signatures as the "original" document!

I'm with Kate here - I have a feeling that sometimes the second copy didnt get filled in till the happy couple had gone their merry way.

The only way, to be absolutely sure you are seeing their original signatures, is to see the church register - but even THAT could be overlooked at the time (unlikely, I think, though).

OC

Muggins in Sussex
12-12-07, 13:38
I think this certificate must be a photocopy of the original, because that is what it looks like, and because there is a distinct variety in handwriting styles - although strangely, all other certificates I have had from the same source have obviously been modern handwritten copies.

Now I seem to have lost the blasted thing!!!

Phoenix
12-12-07, 13:48
I have my parents' marriage certificate and the signatures are originals, in different inks for added conviction! but I believe that this was unusual, and you usually bore off with you a copy that the vicar, registrar etc had made out. There are certainly no live signatures (apart from the registrar!) on any of the other original certificates in my possession.

Anne in Carlisle
12-12-07, 14:00
We have our original marriage certificate which we filled in at the time. I made a mistake in spelling my middle name :o and its a bit of a blob.

Imagine how pleased I was to see, on the parish record certificate, that my gg grandmother (Ann Goodgames) had done exactly the same thing with her middle name :D

I can't remember filling in a duplicate certificate when we were married - but it was a long time ago!

Anne

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 14:24
Muggins

The copy you got from Cheshire Register Office will not be the original, it will be a copy made by the Vicar when he filled in his returns and sent them to the local register office.

The original entry will remain with the church, or probably, by now, in the county records office.

(See how Merry has scared me with her talk of confusing abbreviations, lol!)

OC


ooooh, how I hate to disagree (takes deep breath!)

When you marry in a C of E church you sign two copies of the marriage cert. One of the marriage registers will eventually end up at the County Record Office and the other one will end up at the local Register Office. So if you get your cert from either of those places it should have the original handwriting on it. (which is why I can't understand why yours appears not to!)

The copy at the GRO will be in the handwriting of the vicar as he is the one who will have made the quarterly return to the GRO.

*scuttles away*

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 14:26
Yes, there were supposed to be two to sign, I'm just saying that in some cases the actual people didn't sign the second one.


This is probably the answer!

Uncle John
12-12-07, 14:43
I have my parents' marriage certificate and the signatures are originals, in different inks for added conviction! but I believe that this was unusual, and you usually bore off with you a copy that the vicar, registrar etc had made out. There are certainly no live signatures (apart from the registrar!) on any of the other original certificates in my possession.

Odd that there are different inks. They are supposed to be done in indelible ink, which I'm told makes a real mess of a fountain pen if it dries.

KiteRunner
12-12-07, 14:51
By the way, I think I may have mentioned this once before, but once I was looking through the marriage entries in one of the Notts parish registers and a certain person's name (think he was the parish clerk or some such) appeared as witness on every single one, in the same place, regardless of whether there was only one or two other witnesses. It looked very likely that he just went through the book signing all the marriage entries at one time, rather than at the time of the ceremony! And I strongly suspect that he signed them in advance.

Olde Crone Holden
12-12-07, 15:34
OK, I have never married in church and don't know anyone well enough who has, but that means you must sign your name THREE times then - two registers, one marriage cert to take away with you?

Yes? No?

And if the Vicar sends away one register to the GRO for his returns....what happens to people who marry while the book is at the local Register Office being copied? What do they sign?

OC

Anne in Carlisle
12-12-07, 15:41
I was surprised to see that Merry said the vicar copies the certificate for the GRO. I would have thought it was a clerk at the Register Office?? Don't know now :confused:

Am I right or wrong here: ......
There are four copies of a certificate
1. the one the bride and groom take away
2. the one in the church register - eventually lodged in the County Archives
3. the copy at the local Register Office
4. the copy at the GRO

I don't even remember signing more than one (the one I made the mistake on - can still feel myself blushing now after 38 years!)

Anne

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 15:45
I think thigs have changed since 1983 when everything was digitized, but before that.....

Yes, I signed three marriage certs when I married in church. I can remember two large black books and the one we took away with us, which was loose (obviously!)


The register office may not receive the churches copy of the marriage register for many years. This is why sometimes the cert is not available from the local registrars (if they haven't let got the register). This happened to me when I tried to get a copy of my uncle's marriage cert. It was in the 1950's but the local registrar hadn't got the book yet and so I had to apply to the church!! (the CRO hadn't let got their copy because it wasn't full either.....obviously they are completed in tandem.)

The GRO get loose summary sheets (before 1983....don't know about now) from the vicar each Q, so the GRO should be up to date but not the local reg office.

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 15:48
I was surprised to see that Merry said the vicar copies the certificate for the GRO. I would have thought it was a clerk at the Register Office?? Don't know now :confused:

Am I right or wrong here: ......
There are four copies of a certificate
1. the one the bride and groom take away
2. the one in the church register - eventually lodged in the County Archives
3. the copy at the local Register Office
4. the copy at the GRO

I don't even remember signing more than one (the one I made the mistake on - can still feel myself blushing now after 38 years!)

Anne

Def the vicar (I'm only talking about C of E as other churches are not all the same). Who is it on here whose marriage cert details could not be read properly by the indexer at the GRO because they couldn't read her father's writing? (He was the vicar who married them!)

No 4 in your list above is the one with no sigs......hand written by the vicar at the end of the Q. No 3 in your list is the second bound volume, the first being No 2 in your list.

Anne in Carlisle
12-12-07, 16:09
Merry - I was obviously so embarassed that I didn't notice anything else after the first one with the mistake! Looks as if I've not noticed much else in the susquent 38 years :rolleyes:

Ho hum .... I got my Senior citizens railcard today ... its all downhill from here:p

Anne

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 16:16
Although this article is talking about a slightly different aspect, it may help....

http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/index.php/Victorian_Registrars_and_the_GRO

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 16:17
Merry - I was obviously so embarassed that I didn't notice anything else after the first one with the mistake! Looks as if I've not noticed much else in the susquent 38 years :rolleyes:



Anne

Isn't it awful when you can't forget something like that!!

Muggins in Sussex
12-12-07, 16:49
ooooh, how I hate to disagree (takes deep breath!)

When you marry in a C of E church you sign two copies of the marriage cert. One of the marriage registers will eventually end up at the County Record Office and the other one will end up at the local Register Office. So if you get your cert from either of those places it should have the original handwriting on it. (which is why I can't understand why yours appears not to!)

The copy at the GRO will be in the handwriting of the vicar as he is the one who will have made the quarterly return to the GRO.

*scuttles away*

I think my cert must have the original handwriting on it - it's just that the bride and groom had uncannily similar handwriting!!

What I don't understand is why, if an original copy is at the Register Office, they don't always just photocopy it when a copy is requested - surely it would be much simpler than copying it all out in longhand?

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 17:10
Some of the books are too thick to open out far enough, I think......and some of the books are too fragile.

The worst is if they are hand copied or typed by someone not used to Victorian handwriting. I've got some very odd certs from local offices!!

Muggins in Sussex
12-12-07, 17:20
Thanks Merry

It's just that a few times recently I have got copy certs from the Local Registry for events that happened in the 1980's ( including my own marriage cert!) - and they were all rewritten as opposed to copied

Merry Monty Montgomery
12-12-07, 18:59
I think if you ask for a cert after 1983 then it has to be handwritten or typed because they take the details from a computer record. I'm not at all sure of this though, so I wonder if anyone else knows?

Christine in Herts
13-12-07, 00:29
Def the vicar (I'm only talking about C of E as other churches are not all the same). Who is it on here whose marriage cert details could not be read properly by the indexer at the GRO because they couldn't read her father's writing? (He was the vicar who married them!)


'Twas I!

And my father was The Rector, not The Vicar. :D Of course, to all intents and purposes, that's the same thing, but it mattered a lot to the Locals, because it meant that there was more history attached.

The reason I found out about the indexing error was because I have misplaced my original and was looking it up to get a replacement. I was more than a bit baffled to find that I didn't seem to have got married that quarter after all - and my husband had married some other woman! :eek:

Christine