PDA

View Full Version : Opinions required please - which Death ?



Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 14:59
Afternoon all !

One of my GGG Grandmothers married 3 times - and I'm down from her 3rd marriage (so lucky to be here as me !!! :eek:).

Anyway, I'm keen to order up the Death cert of her 2nd husband - but there are two options - can I please have some thoughts as to which is more likely ?!?

Details :-

Mary Ann Rooney (aged 23) & Richard Fagg (aged 34) in Brompton - Kent - they married on 16th March 1864 - Brompton - The Parish Church.

They had two sons - the first was William Edward Fagg - born A/M/J 1864 - Medway (Kent). The second one Joseph Richard Fagg - born 14th May 1866 - Farnham.

Now on the 11th July 1866 - Mary Ann Fagg married Joseph Jackson (he was also in the Army !) - at Farnham.

There are two possibles on the Death of Richard Fagg :-

1) O/N/D 1865 - Dover

2) J/F/M 1866 - Portsea (aged 36)

I have the 2nd son's (Joseph Richard Fagg) Birth cert - no mention of his Deceased father.

So which Death shall I go for ? Both have merits of sorts. The first place Dover is in Kent and probably used by the army as a departure point. The second option matches his age.

Now include the info that she married at Farnham for her third marriage - I'm thinking it's the first option.

Please advise and then I'll order up the cert ! :) Which would you go for and why ???

Thanks

Simon

Vivienne
09-12-07, 15:08
Hi Simon, like you I would be inclined towards the first one in Dover. I know they often married quite soon after the death of a previous spouse but I think it would be after a decent period of mourning, at least 3 mths!

Fingers crossed you pick the right one, I always have this problem as my main surname is Barker & there are tons of em!:D

Little Nell
09-12-07, 15:19
Mmm.

Mary Ann has baby named Joseph and less than 2 months later marries a man called Joseph? I'd be a bit suspicious about that, personally. Is there a father actually named on Joseph Fagg's birth cert?

Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 15:37
Mmm.

Mary Ann has baby named Joseph and less than 2 months later marries a man called Joseph? I'd be a bit suspicious about that, personally. Is there a father actually named on Joseph Fagg's birth cert?

Yes here are the details. Joseph Richard Fagg - born Aldershot 14th May 1866 (registered 21st May Farnham) - although the Mother has stated that she resides in Aldershot. The Father is stated as Richard Fagg - but there is no deceased after his name.

Has anyone ever had a Birth Cert where the Father is shown as deceased ?

Little Nell
09-12-07, 15:44
IF - big if - Joseph's father was really someone else (though the fact he is named Richard as well seems to mitigate this) then mother may have just given her deceased husband's name when asked and not mentioned he was dead, in case the registrar started asking when he died.

On the other hand, getting married 2 months after having another man's child, whilst not impossible, does seem a bit quick to me!

Little Nell
09-12-07, 15:47
Farnham registration district included Aldershot until 1934 when Aldershot reg district was created.

Of course its possible Mary Ann and children were in barracks and husband died whilst travelling elsewhere with the army.

Little Nell
09-12-07, 15:51
1865 Dover death
There's a Richard Fagg age 61 on 1861 census living in Dover, so that may help rule out first death.
The one that died 1st q 1866 in Portsea would have been around to father Mary Ann's child. But she clearly felt the need of a male protector/provider pretty soon after his death and birth of their child.

Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 16:05
1865 Dover death
There's a Richard Fagg age 61 on 1861 census living in Dover, so that may help rule out first death.
The one that died 1st q 1866 in Portsea would have been around to father Mary Ann's child. But she clearly felt the need of a male protector/provider pretty soon after his death and birth of their child.

So you think the 2nd one is the right one to get ?

Just to add some more info.............a few years down the line..................Mary Ann and her 3rd husband ended up in Portsmouth, after going round the Med where they had a son at Malta (my GG Grandfather), and his younger brother in Gibralter.

Little Nell
09-12-07, 16:12
Simon

Have you got any checking points you could add - his army number, rough age?

Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 16:28
Simon

Have you got any checking points you could add - his army number, rough age?

Well, going on the marriage cert - Richard Fagg was 34 in 1864. And he was a Butcher - probably worked in the army in that role.

Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 19:00
SO what do we think people ???

I want to place an order tonight.

Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 20:09
Please give me your opinions.........................

Please, please, please..............

I'll order tonight at 9.30pm. Thats in just over an hours time.

Thanks

Simon

***I'll order it this weekend***

Mavis by the Moor
09-12-07, 20:17
Simon, I would give a slight edge to the Dover one, allowing her slightly longer to be widowed, but I would put an age check to hopefully save £4 if it's wrong, but then again the Portsea one looks the right age anyway. errm ..... Toss a coin!!!!

Simon in Bucks
09-12-07, 22:03
Simon, I would give a slight edge to the Dover one, allowing her slightly longer to be widowed, but I would put an age check to hopefully save £4 if it's wrong, but then again the Portsea one looks the right age anyway. errm ..... Toss a coin!!!!

Nice one ! :) I'll leave this one a few more days and see what people think.

In the meantime, I'll order up Mary Ann's Birth cert and also her father's Death cert.

Keep those opinions coming.

Thanks

Simon

Little Nell
09-12-07, 23:39
Simon

Sorry not to be more helpful, but I think you won't know till you've got the cert - see my James Robins post to see how difficult it is!

Simon in Bucks
10-12-07, 17:56
Simon

Sorry not to be more helpful, but I think you won't know till you've got the cert - see my James Robins post to see how difficult it is!


I'm going to go for the Portsea one ! Bet it'll be the wrong one after all this.

Reasons :-

1) There is a definite Army match on this - and I'm guessing that Portsmouth was a massive departure point for any army.

2) Age matches

3) Little Nell mentioned that there was a 60+ year old Richard Fagg living in Dover on the Census records of 1861

I will update everyone and tell you what I got - right or wrong ? Only one way to find out.

Thanks

Simon

Merry Monty Montgomery
10-12-07, 21:56
Only one way to find out.




You could try the local office. Then it shouldn't cost you if it's the wrong man!

*tosses coin*

Simon in Bucks
11-12-07, 13:00
You could try the local office. Then it shouldn't cost you if it's the wrong man!

*tosses coin*

I've ordered it now ! (will use the tip for future - good idea that)

At a very wild guess here...............I wonder if an accident was cause of Death ? Hence the very short time between the wife having his 'child' and re-marrying.

I'll get the cert next week - according to the GRO site.

Olde Crone Holden
11-12-07, 13:36
Hmmm, I smell a bit of a rat here.

What an extremely noble man to marry a woman and take on another man's child with such haste.

And if he was THAT noble, why not marry her before the birth and make her life easier? He sounds more like a reluctant father, to me!

Be interesting to see who was the informant of death.

OC

Simon in Bucks
12-12-07, 08:16
Hmmm, I smell a bit of a rat here.

What an extremely noble man to marry a woman and take on another man's child with such haste.

And if he was THAT noble, why not marry her before the birth and make her life easier? He sounds more like a reluctant father, to me!

Be interesting to see who was the informant of death.

OC

Ooooooh, you make it much more interesting ! :eek: I'll definately have to show all the details when I get the certificate. I've always thought that she had an 'interesting' life...............................:rolleyes:

Simon in Bucks
22-12-07, 23:33
Death Cert came today ! :)

I went for the Portsea one in the end.............think we've got the right one as well. :cool:

Died 27th January 1866 - Garrison Hospital
Richard Fagg - male - aged 36
Private - 52nd Regiment
Cause of Death - Phthisis Pulmonalis 40 days (TB of the lungs)
Informant - Thomas Doody - Garrison Hospital Portsea
Registered 29th January 1866

So that fits in pretty good, as his wife gave birth to his son 4 months later, then re-married to a Corporal - Joseph Jackson - in the same 52nd Regiment.

The only slight 'question mark' I have in this is that the marriage cert from 1864 said that Richard Fagg was a butcher - however his sons Birth cert in May 1866 at Aldershot says his father (Richard Fagg) was in the 52nd Regiment.

All in all..................right certificate ??? What do you think ?

Thanks so much for the thoughts so far - all appreciated.

Simon

Pippa Doll
22-12-07, 23:37
Do you know when he enlisted?

Simon in Bucks
23-12-07, 08:46
Do you know when he enlisted?

No to either Richard Fagg or Joseph Jackson. But I know that there is a Regimental museum for the 52nd.

Might sound a bit odd - but I'm less interestested in Richard Fagg, as he's not related to me, and I don't want to spend loads of time. Now obviously this raises questions on HOW much time effort and money you spend on looking into aspects of your Direct Ancestors life. In THIS instance, Richard Fagg was married to my GGG Grandmother for less than 2 years.

If I was looking into army background, I'd be more interested in Joseph Jackson's career, as he got to Corporal - so surely more chance of him being mentioned in Regimental records ?!?

My feeling is that when Mary Ann Fagg was widowed, she somehow go to know Joseph Jackson (maybe he was a shoulder to cry on ?), and with two young kids and being in her mid-20's, she must have been a 'looker' for him to make the effort and take on another man's children (this is with my family historical Mills and Boon head on !!!).

Just my thoughts.

Has anyone ever gone to a Regimental museum ? If so, was it more general history of the Regiment that you came away with............or did you get info on an individual that you wanted ?

Would they have had individual army service records in the 1860's ?

Thanks

Simon