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  • St Michael's Bristol.

    Can anyone tell me what denomination St Michael's Bristol would have been in 1842.

    My "missing Agatha" born 1822 was baptised in St Michael's in 1842. Her family were all non-conformists, mostly belonging to Broadmead Baptist.

    She was married in 1839, must get her marriage cert and check that.

    There are several St Michael's on google, but Agatha lived mostly around Berkley Sq and Clifton.

    Thanks,
    Libby.

  • #2
    Its probably St Michael's on the Mount Without (ie outside the city walls) off St Michael's Hill and about 10 mins walk from Berkley Square. Its C of E.

    Strangely some of my family were baptised at Broadmead baptist, but were married in C of E churches. Hadn't thought of them being baptised as adults tho.

    Nicky x

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    • #3
      Thanks Nicky.

      I think Broadmead only did adult baptisms. I just thought she'd have to be baptised before being married.

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      • #4
        I'll have to look into that. They're all part of a brick wall....so maybe that might explain some things

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        • #5
          Nicky .......if you want to let me know the details, I'll happily keep an eye open. This lot are my HUGE brickwall.

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          • #6
            George Nicholson Boddie bap 1806, Susannah Boddie bap 1804. Broad Mead. Parents George and Susannah according to IGI

            I think my George died 1826 in Mells Somerset (there was a will but it was destroyed by fire!)
            He had 3 children born 1820 1822 1824 in Mells. George's wife was also Susannah (Hiscox) .

            According to his son's (my gg grandfather) marriage cert he was a gardener.
            By 1841 Susannah was in Bristol with her children. It's not a common name, so are they the same person?

            Any ideas gratefully received.

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            • #7
              I think we discussed this very thing the other day!

              Baptists do not baptise infants, only adults. But they have some kind of welcoming ceremony for newborns.

              It would appear that many Baptists adopted a belt and braces approach - C of E baptism for the baby, Baptist baptism when that child was of an age to undertake it of their own will.

              This wasn't the hypocrisy that it seems. If you were not baptised C of E, you couldn't get settlement, or any help from the parish if you fell on hard times, so it made common sense.

              Baptists could not perform marriages back then, I don't think, and so you would have to marry in a C of E church - which would probably, almost certainly, demand that you be baptised C of E.

              OC

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              • #8
                OC.......
                what do you make of this??

                Agatha Ariel born 1822 Bristol (I have the cert from Dr William's Library). Her family were mostly involved with Broadmead Baptist church (on the board,etc).
                Her mother was in Lewins Mead (also Baptist)
                So I didn't expect an infant baptism.
                But she married in 1839.
                Her husband's brother was a C of E minister.
                Agatha had six children before her divorce in 1845/6. (Court case '45 proved '46)
                Agatha's children were baptised as they were born (can't find the boys, but presume so)
                Agatha wasn't baptised till 1842 C of E.
                Why wasn't she baptised C of E before marriage.
                Her widowed father married her husband's sister in 1839 as well. He was on the board of Broadmead Baptist church.

                I know anything's possible, particularly with money, but this seems dodgy!!

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                • #9
                  I'll give it some thought, lol, but off the top of my head:

                  She neglected to tell her husband (or more likely, he neglected to tell his C of E brother) that she hadn't actually been baptised C of E, (or lied!) and the Vicar did not pick up on this at the time of the marriage. Or, money exchanged hands, and the Vicar's conscience was squared because these people had a deep, if non conformist, faith.

                  (But I wonder why they didn't marry in a Register Office?? Most of my non cons did)

                  Of course, if you had money, you didn't NEED to be baptised C of E, because you were unlikely to ever need the help of the parish, and you could move about freely between parishes because you had money.

                  Maybe she was baptised C of E in 1842 because one of her children was ill, and the Vicar took the opportunity of "getting to her" - they often did, at such times. She had no need to do it for right of settlement, etc, because that was virtually finished by then, after the Union Poor Laws came into being.

                  OC

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                  • #10
                    OC.....this woman gives me trouble every time I turn around.

                    Having said that.......it feels like she wants me to find her.....sounds weird, I know.

                    Her family were extremely wealthy, then her mother died 1837, her father remarried 1839 (then died 1840), she married 1839, her sister married 1840, her brother went and lived with that sister in Wales and married 1848.

                    He came to Australia 1853 with his family and then promptly vanished.

                    The Ariel family seemed to be fine until they married into the Clark family.
                    You would have to read the divorce report to believe it (Merry spent some time on it and we found a few dodgy deaths popping up).
                    Of course, it possibly helped that Agatha's husband was a solicitor, one broth-in-law was a minister and another a doctor!! Could hide anything with that pedigree.

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                    • #11
                      OOOOH, Harry's mum!

                      Well, it wouldn't be the first (nor the last) time that a woman was done away with, and money bought silence. Especially back then, when there was no organised police force and any awkward enquiries could be staved off very easily - who would dare to question such august people and cast aspersions on them, without absolute proof?

                      Erm, forgive my over active imagination here, I read too many trashy novels...but the usual method of dealing with nuisance (but rich) women was to lock them up in some terribly discreet asylum, or the attic!

                      OC

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                      • #12
                        That's what I think as well.

                        Henry Clark (Agatha's brother-in-law) has been written up as working with chloroform and opening the lunatic assylum at Bristol Medical School.

                        The "other man" in Agatha's divorce case was Henry's junior partner, William Dunsford, newly married to another very wealthy Wiltshire girl.

                        Of course, after having beautiful records of the Ariel family, there is no record of Agatha's death.

                        What gets me is that Edward Clark (Agatha's husband) keeps all the six children, when, if what he says is correct, the last two could have been Dunsford's.

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                        • #13
                          Harry's mum

                          Oh, what an exquisite piece of crafty spite! He certainly isn't going to let HER have the fruits of her adultery.

                          I can just imagine the scene:

                          "Well, my dear, if you attempt to take these children, I shall be forced to admit that they are possibly not mine, and re-register them as bastards - is that what you wish for your children?"

                          Of course, if she has been done away with, or locked up, then he HAS to keep the children, because dumping them on someone else would be rather suspicious, if he has passed around the story that she has vanished - why would he get rid of just two of the children?

                          Did you not say somewhere else that all the children have Ariel as a middle name? His idea, to commemorate their poor, dear, dead mamma, perhaps?

                          I don't know how you would ever get to the bottom of this though. She MIGHT just have run away and reinvented herself. But certainly they have all the tools for getting rid of her permanently, one way or the other.

                          OC

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                          • #14
                            One day....one day.....I'll find her.

                            Just waiting for Time Team to find some bones in the walls of the Bristol Medical School.

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                            • #15
                              Just a small comment. I have children who are on the IGI as infant baptisms at Broadmead baptist church. The family emigrated to South Africa and the children's ages are on the shipping list. Grandfather was a lay preacher. I do have a congregationalist family who baptised children at seven which can be confusing. My mum said it was something to do with St. Ignatious Loyola founder of the Jesuits saying "give me a child until he is seven and he will be mine for life".
                              Anne

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                              • #16
                                Thanks Anne.......I have a few I couldn't work out, so maybe that's what I have to look for.

                                Can't quite work out these churches. The men all belonged to Broadmead, I've sent reports of them on the church board, along with in-laws, business partners, etc. and the wives seemed to belong to Lewins Mead.

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                                • #17
                                  This is nothing to do with baptisms, but I thought Nicky might be interested -

                                  The nursery rhyme of Little Jack Horner has a connection with Mells. Apparently - or should I say 'allegedly'? - John Horner was a courtier or something to one of the kings (sorry, my grasp of history is shocking, for someone into family history!) :o

                                  John was sent off to deliver deeds of land to reward some of the king's favourites, and it's said that he 'rewarded' himself by taking one of the deeds himself - the 'plumb' of the pick, in Mells! Hence, 'put in his thumb and pulled out a plumb'. There are lots of Horners in the graveyard at Mells.

                                  Bee.
                                  Bee~~~fuddled.

                                  Searching for BANKS, MILLER, MOULTON from Lancs and Cheshire; COX from Staffordshire and Birmingham;
                                  COX, HALL, LAMBDEN, WYNN, from Hants and Berks; SYMES (my mystery g'father!) from anywhere near Bournemouth.

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                                  • #18
                                    Hi Bee,
                                    Funny you should mention that, I received this from someone else connected to the Boddies of Mells
                                    "I do know that there is a rumour about the Horner's of Mells and Susannah
                                    Boddie. Apparently she was several months pregant when she married Thomas
                                    Horler (1823) and there are suspicions about links with the landed Horner family
                                    but I think that is just susposition at the moment. Her father was supposed to be the gardener at Mells Court"

                                    So no further forward, but some interesting possible connections!!

                                    Nicky

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                                    • #19
                                      That's interesting, Nicky! Synchronicity, eh?

                                      Sounds like there's a facinating story there, somewhere. Do let us know, if you find one.

                                      Bee.
                                      Bee~~~fuddled.

                                      Searching for BANKS, MILLER, MOULTON from Lancs and Cheshire; COX from Staffordshire and Birmingham;
                                      COX, HALL, LAMBDEN, WYNN, from Hants and Berks; SYMES (my mystery g'father!) from anywhere near Bournemouth.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Hello Harry's Mum
                                        I was intrigued by your post connecting the Ariel family to the Broadmead Baptish Church. I am writing a book on the felt hatters of Bristol & South Gloucestershire: 1550-1900; currently researching the Ransford family - major hatters of Bristol, London & Manchester. Edward Randsford, who founded the firm, came from a strong Baptist family of Cheltenham (Pilgrim fathers as well) and they attended Broadmead . In 1751, Ransford was apprenticed to widow Mary Brain (husband Moses). There is an apprenticeship chain back to about 1600 and I wonder whether Brain was chosen because of Baptist faith. Ransford's grandson, Thomas Gay Ransford, prominent London hatter, went backrupt, married Eliza Ariel, b 1788, at Broadmead in 1814 and by licence (because Baptist?). She was possibly the daughter of William Ariel, Bristol shipping merchant, c 1820.
                                        Can you help me on my way at all?
                                        Best wishes
                                        Chris Heal

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