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thomasalbertedward
09-10-19, 11:40
Hi all from a tropical heat wave down-under

I am trying to locate what happened to Emily, apparently the last-born child of William Adams and Caroline Chambers.

William was born in 1818 in West Wycombe, Buckinghamshire.
Caroline was born in Hammersmith in 1824.

They married in 1840: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1623/47188_263021009499_1660-00070?pid=21573433&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1623%26h%3D21573433%26t id%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.241719682.163702462.1570613695-1282651370.1512348566

On the 1841 census: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8978/KENHO107_488_489-0091?pid=3173755&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26h%3D3173755%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.165949886.163702462.1570613695-1282651370.1512348566

1851: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8860/MDXHO107_1470_1470-0227?pid=2135669&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8860%26h%3D2135669%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DPyG15527% 26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG15527&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

1861: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8767/BRKRG9_772_776-0345?pid=10900203&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D8767%26h%3D10900203%26indiv%3Dtry%2 6o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D8860&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.203569808.163702462.1570613695-1282651370.1512348566

1871 - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=7619&h=1157709&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8767

1871 is when Emily appears and I cannot find the family in 1881 despite hours of searching. "Daughter" Sarah in 1871, aged 22, was their niece Sarah Adams Piggott who later emigrated to Australia. But all of their other children are registered on the GRO indexes under Adams with the mother's maiden name of Chambers. The last one to be registered is Stephen and I can't find any matching birth for Emily at all. I wondered if she could be a grandchild or the daughter of niece Sarah?

William and Caroline in 1891: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/6598/MDXRG12_1022_1024-0514?pid=37595679&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DPyG15530%26_phstart%3DsuccessSour ce%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D6598%26g sfn%3Dcaroline%26gsln%3Dadams%26cp%3D11%26mssng%3D william%26mssns%3Dadams%26msydy%3D1841%26msypn__ft p%3Dlondon,%2520england,%2520united%2520kingdom%26 msypn%3D5274%26msbdy%3D1824%26msbpn__ftp%3Dhammers mith,%2520middlesex,%2520england,%2520united%2520k ingdom%26msbpn%3D85845%26qh%3DQSjqIF%252BzWcQyFOAY R70rDQ%253D%253D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3D6wf %26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D37595679%26recoff%3D% 26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG15530&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

Caroline died in 1897 and William in 1902.

Any help/ideas about how to locate Emily's identity would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 16:11
on FMP there is:
First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name ADAMS
Birth year 1869
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Chambers
District Hendon
County Middlesex
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 126
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Births
Collections from Great Britain, England

and oddly I can't find on GRO website

20294



absolutely no idea what this means - but thought worth noting!

teasie
09-10-19, 16:49
William is the only one I can see too.

ADAMS, WILLIAM mmn CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in HENDON Volume 03A Page 126

I wonder if the answer is as simple as a mistake on the birth registration?

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 18:04
I realised why I couldn't find on GRO not in Brentford district, but Hendon, I think that is too far from Brentford?

teasie
09-10-19, 19:11
Is she the Emily Adams aged 27, father William, a Labourer, who married George Hubert Haynes in 1896?

I can see George Hubert's death in 1907 but I haven't spotted them in 1901 yet.

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 19:48
re the 1881 census, have you scrolled through the pages of the census in the Heston area. I am wondering as this is the free census, that the pages have only been transcribed once and used by all? so maybe a page missed?

"1881 British Isles Census Index provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © Copyright 1999 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. All use is subject to the limited use license and other terms and conditions applicable to this site. Appreciation is expressed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for providing the 1881 England and Wales Census Index.
Original data: Census Returns of England and Wales, 1881. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA): Public Record Office (PRO), 1881."

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 19:56
I have Amelia and an Emily on here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/MDXRG11_1339_1344-0171?pid=15667770&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7572%26h%3D15667770%26t id%3D164130072%26pid%3D122133536070%26usePUB%3Dtru e%26_phsrc%3DSZd23802%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=164130072&personid=122133536070&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=SZd23802&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.105812225.341296847.1570645999-92375793.1535224975

both servants in same house: Staines Road Percy Lodge.

But Emily is wrong age.

Jason Gurney 54
Elizabeth M. Gurney 51
Alfred H. Gurney 28
Ada M. Gurney 24
Margaret L. Gurney 21
George A. Gurney 19
Harold Gurney 18
Charles D. Gurney 17
Agnes Gurney 7
Arnold E. Williams 24
Emily Adams 26
Annie Taylor 24
Amelia Adams 19

edit - just realised that this must be daughter Emma?

Elaine
09-10-19, 20:55
Found these going by census names

From 1851

ADAMS, LEAH CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in GREENWICH UNION Volume 05 Page 200

ADAMS, EDWIN CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in KENSINGTON PADDINGTON AND FULHAM Volume 03 Page 324

? Caroline

1861

?Catherine, Thomas, Emma,

ADAMS, FREDERICK CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 40

ADAMS, WILLIAM CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 34

1871

ADAMS, STEPHEN CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 45

ADAMS, AMELIA CHAMBERS
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 45

?Emily and Sarah

Elaine
09-10-19, 21:15
Found Emily 1855 MMN Chambers, Brentford, was hoping the reg district would help with younger Emily but nothing so far

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 21:33
I think Emma is Emily, which sort of confirms that Emily no2 can't be the same parents:

ADAMS, EMILY CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 43

oops sorry Elaine hadn't noticed you had posted

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 21:43
is this Emily number 2
ADAMS, EMILY -
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 44

wrong age though

Elaine
09-10-19, 21:56
Didn't refine the search but listed also there are baptisms for William and Caroline's children and Leah has an illegitmate son William bap 1864

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/lmabirths/?name=_adams&event=1865_hounslow-middlesex-england-united+kingdom_1671195&event_x=10-0-0_1-0

Elaine
09-10-19, 22:26
Leah marries and has a daughter Amelia

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=an&db=LMAbirths&indiv=try&h=156800268

but I can't see them 1881 either. She is widowed by 1891

cbcarolyn
09-10-19, 22:30
Can't see any clues there

There is another Emily Adams, still not right age

ADAMS, EMILY DIMMOCK
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 44

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 00:37
on FMP there is:
First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name ADAMS
Birth year 1869
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Chambers
District Hendon
County Middlesex
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 126
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Births
Collections from Great Britain, England

and oddly I can't find on GRO website

20294



absolutely no idea what this means - but thought worth noting!

That is interesting! - thanks so much. Wouldn't have found that as I don't have FMP.

William and Caroline called their first child William and he died as an infant and then a second son William in 1859, so that name was already used up. I wonder if it's
a mistake for Willamina since the date of birth would be right for the "Emily" on the 1871 census? Niece Sarah used Willamina in the naming of her eldest daughter later.

William and Caroline had also had an Emily/Emma in 1854 and she was registered as Emily - though used both names - which is why I thought the second Emily might be a granddaughter. :)

Don't know why the last child would be Emily on the census - though mother Caroline is "Sarah" on the 1861 census so obviously just a mistake.

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 00:39
Is she the Emily Adams aged 27, father William, a Labourer, who married George Hubert Haynes in 1896?

I can see George Hubert's death in 1907 but I haven't spotted them in 1901 yet.

I've had a look at that marriage and was unsure - will take another look. Thanks so much :)

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 00:40
re the 1881 census, have you scrolled through the pages of the census in the Heston area. I am wondering as this is the free census, that the pages have only been transcribed once and used by all? so maybe a page missed?

"1881 British Isles Census Index provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © Copyright 1999 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. All use is subject to the limited use license and other terms and conditions applicable to this site. Appreciation is expressed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for providing the 1881 England and Wales Census Index.
Original data: Census Returns of England and Wales, 1881. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA): Public Record Office (PRO), 1881."

Good idea, thank you :)

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 00:41
I have Amelia and an Emily on here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/MDXRG11_1339_1344-0171?pid=15667770&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7572%26h%3D15667770%26t id%3D164130072%26pid%3D122133536070%26usePUB%3Dtru e%26_phsrc%3DSZd23802%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=164130072&personid=122133536070&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=SZd23802&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.105812225.341296847.1570645999-92375793.1535224975

both servants in same house: Staines Road Percy Lodge.

But Emily is wrong age.

Jason Gurney 54
Elizabeth M. Gurney 51
Alfred H. Gurney 28
Ada M. Gurney 24
Margaret L. Gurney 21
George A. Gurney 19
Harold Gurney 18
Charles D. Gurney 17
Agnes Gurney 7
Arnold E. Williams 24
Emily Adams 26
Annie Taylor 24
Amelia Adams 19

edit - just realised that this must be daughter Emma?

Yes, Emily/Emma and Amelia, two of William and Caroline's daughters. :)

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 00:44
I think Emma is Emily, which sort of confirms that Emily no2 can't be the same parents:

ADAMS, EMILY CHAMBERS GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 43

oops sorry Elaine hadn't noticed you had posted

thanks Elaine and Carolyn :)

It definitely looks like the second "Emily" has been wrongly registered and then given the wrong name on the 1871 census. :)

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 00:46
Didn't refine the search but listed also there are baptisms for William and Caroline's children and Leah has an illegitmate son William bap 1864

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/lmabirths/?name=_adams&event=1865_hounslow-middlesex-england-united+kingdom_1671195&event_x=10-0-0_1-0

The William baptised in 1864 was actually the son of William's sister Leah - born illegitimate, though his parents later married, but never baptised as an infant apparently - he was about 18 when he was baptised and he did it to get married in a church, which I thought was quite interesting. :)

Sylvia C
10-10-19, 00:49
I even tried looking last night for "unnamed female" child. Nada!

It was before 1874/5 ...... do you think they just forgot to register her??

Katarzyna
10-10-19, 01:04
Emily Adams Marriage Cert.April 1883
20295

Name:
Emily Adams


Spouse Name:
William Gray (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=an&db=AusMarrIndex&indiv=try&h=162860)


Marriage Date:
19 Apr 1883


Marriage Place:
Queensland


Registration Place:
Queensland


Registration Year:
1883


Registration Number:
001143


Page Number:
35

Katarzyna
10-10-19, 01:08
Surname:
Adams


Given:
Emily


Age:
28


Ship/Year:
Earl Granville 1883


Maryborough, Queensland Australia Immigrants from the British Isles & Germany 1861-91

Edit: I think Emma and Emily are the same person.
Ditto Caroline and Catherine

Cannot see Little Emily anywhere either. Perhaps not registered - one of the sister's child maybe???

Katarzyna
10-10-19, 01:23
Sorry missed your posts Thomas...
But ditto Edwin and Edward! same person? They certainly muddled up their children!

teasie
10-10-19, 02:52
I've had a look at that marriage and was unsure - will take another look. Thanks so much :)

This Emily married again after George Huberts Haynes death - 4 Aug 1912 at Emmanuel Church, Camberwell, to Henry Grist a 60 year old widower. She again named her father as William Adams, labourer, but unfortunately the marriage record doesn't give an address for her. Witnesses A Grist & Annie Johnson.

cbcarolyn
10-10-19, 09:40
Thomas have you traced each of the children and it is just Emily b1869 that you have been unable to 'complete'? I did start looking around before bed but decided you probably had a lot of details on each?
Leah Adams 1844–1893 - following the married name of Martin posted by Elaine it looks like she was living in as a servant even though she was married on 2 census?
Edward Adams 1849–1888
Sarah Adams 1849–
Thomas Adams 1853–
Emma Emily Adams 1855– Married in Aus and cert posted on a tree in Ancestry
Frederick Adams 1857– Married and had many many children including an Emily but much later
William Adams 1859–
Amelia Adams 1861–
Stephen Adams 1866– went to Aus?
Emily Adams 1869–

Even though they seem to be changing names I can't see that they would have 2 children with identical names, although first Emily had moved!

Teasies marriage
"Is she the Emily Adams aged 27, father William, a Labourer, who married George Hubert Haynes in 1896?" does make her birth 1869 so the Emily's in 1864 and 1867 woudn't match.

Did Dimmock mean anything to you, is this an Emily already discovered?

There is a big tree on ancestry, can see some duplicates....

cbcarolyn
10-10-19, 10:02
This Emily married again after George Huberts Haynes death - 4 Aug 1912 at Emmanuel Church, Camberwell, to Henry Grist a 60 year old widower. She again named her father as William Adams, labourer, but unfortunately the marriage record doesn't give an address for her. Witnesses A Grist & Annie Johnson.

did you find her on the census?

teasie
10-10-19, 11:23
In 1901 I think she might be the Emily Haines in Olney Street, Newington, aged 32 & born Slough. She is married to a George H Haines, 30, Painter & Paper Hanger, but there are two children who pre-date the marriage: Annie 13 b Greenwich & Minnie 12 b Walworth. The marriage said they were bachelor & spinster, so I don't know who the daughters belong to.

In 1911 there is an Emily Haynes, widow, aged 40 born Slough living at Herne Hill in the home of Edward Webster, along with a son (of who?) named Edward Everitt (?) aged 4 born Camberwell.

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 13:12
Thomas have you traced each of the children and it is just Emily b1869 that you have been unable to 'complete'? I did start looking around before bed but decided you probably had a lot of details on each?
Leah Adams 1844–1893 - following the married name of Martin posted by Elaine it looks like she was living in as a servant even though she was married on 2 census?
Edward Adams 1849–1888
Sarah Adams 1849–
Thomas Adams 1853–
Emma Emily Adams 1855– Married in Aus and cert posted on a tree in Ancestry
Frederick Adams 1857– Married and had many many children including an Emily but much later
William Adams 1859–
Amelia Adams 1861–
Stephen Adams 1866– went to Aus?
Emily Adams 1869–

Even though they seem to be changing names I can't see that they would have 2 children with identical names, although first Emily had moved!

Teasies marriage
"Is she the Emily Adams aged 27, father William, a Labourer, who married George Hubert Haynes in 1896?" does make her birth 1869 so the Emily's in 1864 and 1867 woudn't match.

Did Dimmock mean anything to you, is this an Emily already discovered?

There is a big tree on ancestry, can see some duplicates....

Hi Carolyn

Thanks so much for all your help.

These are all the children of William and Caroline's marriage that I know about and what I think happened to them :

William Thomas born 1841 died 1842
Leah born 1843 - married James Martin - died 1893
Alfred born 1846 died 1846
Edwin/Edward born 1847 - married Ann Marie Jenner - died 1888
Caroline/Catherine born 1849 - married Benjamin Druce - died 1934
Thomas born 1852 - can't find him on the GRO indexes under his mother's maiden name of Chambers, but his birth seems to have been registered in Islington - emigrated to Qld
Emily/Emma - born 1854 - registered as Emily at birth - emigrated to Qld - married William Gray
Frederick born 1857 - married Mary Neighbour - died 1933
William born 1859 - married Alice Cobb in 1882 - sister Emily Adams was a witness - died 1894
Amelia born 1862 - emigrated to Qld
Sarah Ann born 1864 died 1864
Stephen born 1866 - emigrated to Qld
Samuel born 1867 died 1868
and then "William/Emily" in 1869 who is the one I am having such trouble working out.

I can't see them having two children with the same name either and the William in 1869 must be an error of some kind.

Off to have a look at Emily Dimmock - thanks again :)

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 13:17
Sorry missed your posts Thomas...
But ditto Edwin and Edward! same person? They certainly muddled up their children!

yes, Edwin/Edward, Caroline/Catherine and Emily/Emma, all the same people.

Not to mention William/Emily born in 1869.

They certainly weren't thinking of future researchers when they did the muddling :)

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 13:18
Emily Adams Marriage Cert.April 1883
20295

Name:
Emily Adams


Spouse Name:
William Gray (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=an&db=AusMarrIndex&indiv=try&h=162860)


Marriage Date:
19 Apr 1883


Marriage Place:
Queensland


Registration Place:
Queensland


Registration Year:
1883


Registration Number:
001143


Page Number:
35



She was feisty enough to divorce him and sue for custody of their children on the grounds of cruelty and desertion - when divorce was exceedingly rare. :)

GallowayLass
10-10-19, 13:40
I would not totally discount two children, both alive, with the same forename. I have come across this in hubby’s family. Granted, they came from Isle of Skye where odd things were normal LOL
There were two Norman McLeod to same parents. The elder became a police officer, married in Glasgow and moved to Rochdale where he died on duty. His wife came back to Scotland with the youngest son (another Norman who has gone AWOL on me after 1901) and remarried. The younger was a plumber, married, had family and died in Glasgow.

thomasalbertedward
10-10-19, 13:49
I would not totally discount two children, both alive, with the same forename. I have come across this in hubby’s family. Granted, they came from Isle of Skye where odd things were normal LOL
There were two Norman McLeod to same parents. The elder became a police officer, married in Glasgow and moved to Rochdale where he died on duty. His wife came back to Scotland with the youngest son (another Norman who has gone AWOL on me after 1901) and remarried. The younger was a plumber, married, had family and died in Glasgow.

Talking to someone at our local family history association today - their grandfather was a William and he had a brother called William Seth. Apparently their father was drunk both times when he went to register their births at our local court house. :)

cbcarolyn
10-10-19, 14:48
Talking to someone at our local family history association today - their grandfather was a William and he had a brother called William Seth. Apparently their father was drunk both times when he went to register their births at our local court house. :)love that!

cbcarolyn
10-10-19, 14:50
In 1901 I think she might be the Emily Haines in Olney Street, Newington, aged 32 & born Slough. She is married to a George H Haines, 30, Painter & Paper Hanger, but there are two children who pre-date the marriage: Annie 13 b Greenwich & Minnie 12 b Walworth. The marriage said they were bachelor & spinster, so I don't know who the daughters belong to.

In 1911 there is an Emily Haynes, widow, aged 40 born Slough living at Herne Hill in the home of Edward Webster, along with a son (of who?) named Edward Everitt (?) aged 4 born Camberwell.
Heston not far from Slough, but I would have thought far enough to not put Slough, unless of course she was, the wider Adams family are from west of Heston.

Elaine
10-10-19, 23:34
Is this William? went into the army and out very quickly,

brothers

Frederick no. 3 near Lampton near Hounslow
Edward Shepherds Bush London..... in margin
father William ? Ordnance Road

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO97%2F1763%2F383005

First name(s) William
Last name Adams
Birth year 1861
Birth parish Spring Grove
Birth town Hounslow
Birth county Middlesex
Birth country England
Service number 5067
Regiment Royal Artillery
Year 1880
Attestation date 24 Sep 1880
Attestation age years 19
Attestation age months 6
Attestation service number 5067
Attestation corps Royal Artillery

Signed by his mark, if I remember right he signed the marriage register...ancestry keeps timing out at the mo.

Elaine
10-10-19, 23:38
Back in! He did sign the register but occupation brick maker matches

cbcarolyn
11-10-19, 00:35
Is this William? went into the army and out very quickly,

brothers

Frederick no. 3 near Lampton near Hounslow
Edward Shepherds Bush London..... in margin
father William ? Ordnance Road

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO97%2F1763%2F383005

First name(s) William
Last name Adams
Birth year 1861
Birth parish Spring Grove
Birth town Hounslow
Birth county Middlesex
Birth country England
Service number 5067
Regiment Royal Artillery
Year 1880
Attestation date 24 Sep 1880
Attestation age years 19
Attestation age months 6
Attestation service number 5067
Attestation corps Royal Artillery

Signed by his mark, if I remember right he signed the marriage register...ancestry keeps timing out at the mo.
I see ancestry has a banner up saying problems again.

Have not clicked through, so Father at Ordnance Rd? in 1880 - so might be able to find road on 1881 census. :)

need to sleep now, but can see someone living in the road in 1881 with following ref:
Parish Isleworth
County Middlesex
Country England
Registration district Brentford
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 1337
Folio 131
Page 28
Record set 1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

thomasalbertedward
11-10-19, 04:45
Back in! He did sign the register but occupation brick maker matches

Thanks Elaine, great find :)

thomasalbertedward
11-10-19, 04:46
I see ancestry has a banner up saying problems again.

Have not clicked through, so Father at Ordnance Rd? in 1880 - so might be able to find road on 1881 census. :)

need to sleep now, but can see someone living in the road in 1881 with following ref:
Parish Isleworth
County Middlesex
Country England
Registration district Brentford
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 1337
Folio 131
Page 28
Record set 1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Thank you Carolyn, off to take a look now, both ancestry and the GRO indexes were having problems here last night. :)

thomasalbertedward
11-10-19, 05:14
I see ancestry has a banner up saying problems again.

Have not clicked through, so Father at Ordnance Rd? in 1880 - so might be able to find road on 1881 census. :)

need to sleep now, but can see someone living in the road in 1881 with following ref:
Parish Isleworth
County Middlesex
Country England
Registration district Brentford
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 1337
Folio 131
Page 28
Record set 1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Haven't found them in 1881 yet - But Caroline's brother Frederick Chambers and family are living there in Ordnance Road and not far away are the Cobbs - William who joined the army married Alice Cobb - the families are always living close by each other on the other census records so I must not be looking well enough yet :)

cbcarolyn
11-10-19, 09:29
Looks like they were missed off then, the document covers census years, but they could have moved during it. I assume it was taken in Sept 1880, so may have changed.

It says 4 Ordnance Road, only house with a number on census is 18!

There seems to be a lot of cottages around there, so maybe a bit higgledy piggedly.

thomasalbertedward
11-10-19, 14:06
Looks like they were missed off then, the document covers census years, but they could have moved during it. I assume it was taken in Sept 1880, so may have changed.

It says 4 Ordnance Road, only house with a number on census is 18!

There seems to be a lot of cottages around there, so maybe a bit higgledy piggedly.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right. :)

I have a trip to the big city tomorrow, but then will be back to chase up Emily Haines again. Thanks for all the help thus far.

Elaine
11-10-19, 21:03
Frederick 1881

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7572&h=15661957&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD26492&_phstart=successSource

Name: Frederick Adams
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Mary Adams
Gender: Male
Where born: Hounslow, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Heston
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: Cottage Next Door
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Brick Labourer
Registration district: Brentford

Attachment shows which area covered on this enumerated batch

cbcarolyn
11-10-19, 22:14
Frederick has many children including an Emily! love the name of the Cottage, next door to what :)

here are the other census:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/MDXRG12_1043_1045-0317/4441993?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133535953/facts/citation/542189314940/edit/record

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/MDXRG13_1224_1226-0853/7108806?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133535953/facts/citation/542189314823/edit/record

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_07063_0723_03/39917827?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133535953/facts/citation/542189315851/edit/record

teasie
12-10-19, 01:28
love the name of the Cottage, next door to what :)

Well it seems to be the cottage next door to the White Horse pub ;D

https://pubwiki.co.uk/Middlesex/Hounslow/WhiteHorse.shtml

cbcarolyn
12-10-19, 08:55
that answers it :)

thomasalbertedward
15-10-19, 11:39
Frederick has many children including an Emily! love the name of the Cottage, next door to what :)

here are the other census:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/MDXRG12_1043_1045-0317/4441993?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133535953/facts/citation/542189314940/edit/record

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/MDXRG13_1224_1226-0853/7108806?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133535953/facts/citation/542189314823/edit/record

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_07063_0723_03/39917827?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133535953/facts/citation/542189315851/edit/record

Thanks all for all the help.

Has been a few busy days here, but back to searching now. :)

thomasalbertedward
15-10-19, 12:12
Something just occurred to my very slow brain - could "Emily" possibly be Amelia Martin, the daughter of William and Caroline's eldest daughter Leah and her husband James Martin?

Amelia's birth was registered in the March quarter of 1869 in Brentford, so her age fits for "Emily". Leah is working as a servant in 1871 - https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/7619/MDXRG10_1312_1314-0401?pid=1144805&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D1144805%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DPyG15788% 26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG15788&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.191843754.1026818427.1571136781-1282651370.1512348566 - as Elaine already very helpfully posted - and from memory, James Martin is off with the army. The timing does fit.

Although still doesn't explain the mysterious "William" who was also born and registered in 1869 :)

Elaine
15-10-19, 12:35
That's what I thought when I mentioned here previously, couldn't find them 1871 if I remember right and after that, she is not with her children.

thomasalbertedward
15-10-19, 12:56
That's what I thought when I mentioned here previously, couldn't find them 1871 if I remember right and after that, she is not with her children.

Yes, Elaine I think you are right :)

James Martin has always been a bit of an enigma, especially because he doesn't list any parents on their marriage certificate - I wonder if he could have been Irish or Scottish?


Leah in 1891 - working as a cook and says she is a widow - https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/6598/MDXRG12_1033_1034-0524?pid=21635990&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D6598%26h%3D21635990%26indiv%3Dtry%2 6o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D1623&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.57148842.1026818427.1571136781-1282651370.1512348566

Off to see if I can find Emily/Amelia after 1871.

Thanks again :)

thomasalbertedward
15-10-19, 13:09
There are a few infant deaths that could match William, born in 1869 - if it's logical that he died before the 1871 census.

No sign of Amelia/Emily yet

Katarzyna
15-10-19, 13:14
That looks about right. Possible the enumerator - misheard and William -confused and put daughter instead of grand dau and Emily instead Amelia and the enumerator assumed all were Adams! LOL!

thomasalbertedward
15-10-19, 13:31
That looks about right. Possible the enumerator - misheard and William -confused and put daughter instead of grand dau and Emily instead Amelia and the enumerator assumed all were Adams! LOL!

Yes, Kat, that sounds spot on. Sarah who is listed as a daughter in 1871 was a niece - though she did live with them for about 10 years and took on William as a surrogate father after her own father died. :)

cbcarolyn
15-10-19, 14:11
I see that there is a tree that has James Martin b Sydenham, Kent 1838 and has these records attached to him:
Name: James MartinPension Admission or Examination Age: 37
Birth Year: abt 1839
Birth Place: Sydenham, Surrey (Sydenham, orwood, Kent)
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 11 Jul 1876
Regiment: Rifle Bde 3 Batt
Rank: Corporal
Regimental Number: 1608
Records are not on Ancestry but Fold3. you can see them in FMP, but has Sydenham, Norwood in Hampshire

The only thing that is a 'connection that I can see is that he left in 1876 with his intended destination as Hounslow

That would make sense why Leah is living on her own in the place of work as a servant

thomasalbertedward
16-10-19, 12:07
I see that there is a tree that has James Martin b Sydenham, Kent 1838 and has these records attached to him:
Name: James MartinPension Admission or Examination Age: 37
Birth Year: abt 1839
Birth Place: Sydenham, Surrey (Sydenham, orwood, Kent)
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 11 Jul 1876
Regiment: Rifle Bde 3 Batt
Rank: Corporal
Regimental Number: 1608
Records are not on Ancestry but Fold3. you can see them in FMP, but has Sydenham, Norwood in Hampshire

The only thing that is a 'connection that I can see is that he left in 1876 with his intended destination as Hounslow

That would make sense why Leah is living on her own in the place of work as a servant

This is brilliant, thanks Carolyn :)

Just got the documents from Fold3 - all about grey-eyed, sandy-haired 5 feet 6 James Martin.

Now all the more curious to see where they were in 1881 and what happened to Emily/Amelia

cbcarolyn
16-10-19, 13:56
I did find this for A James Martin:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/SRYRG11_757_762-0891/21288918?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133590495/facts/citation/542191441373/edit/record

thomasalbertedward
16-10-19, 16:03
I did find this for A James Martin:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/SRYRG11_757_762-0891/21288918?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133590495/facts/citation/542191441373/edit/record

Thank you!

I remember seeing this record when I started looking at this branch of the family way back in 2010 and the occupation of "attendant on an insane patient" really stood out - but not knowing a definite birthplace for James made it hard to put all the pieces together. Now with the military records you found it's a much clearer picture. And I so appreciate your help.

I wonder where Leah and Amelia were and whether their marriage survived after all his years in India? :)

cbcarolyn
16-10-19, 18:02
Have you seen these:
1871 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/MDXRG10_1312_1314-0401/1144805?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133536467/facts/citation/542189304105/edit/record

1891
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/MDXRG12_1033_1034-0524/21635990?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/164130072/person/122133536467/facts/citation/542189317010/edit/record

It sounds all very likely that Amelia was Emily, good sleuthing by Elaine and you :).

so maybe Leah never left home as husband in the army, and she was in service and often stayed on the properties and Amelia stayed with Grandparents.

She is probably with them in 1881, and that one seems to be missing :(

Would be nice if you could find army records that mention his family.

Elaine
16-10-19, 20:26
Just popping the baptism in again to pull it together as abode is Lampton

Amelia

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1558&h=6800268&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD26835&_phstart=successSource

cbcarolyn
16-10-19, 20:53
I wonder where she went :(

Elaine
16-10-19, 21:49
Amelia Marin 1891

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=6598&h=37591863&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD26873&_phstart=successSource

Amelia born Lampton domestic servant

Elaine
16-10-19, 21:57
Just looking at Amelia 1901 from Lampton

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=5096944&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD26878&_phstart=successSource

William G Exall 29
Amelia Exall 31
Wilfred C Exall 2
Amelia M Exall 1

army records as Amelia Martin spinster, married in Wales

Elaine
16-10-19, 22:00
Bingo, marriage is here 28th Sep 1895

To William James Exall

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FM%2F913035379%2F1

Father James Martin soldier deceased

Elaine
16-10-19, 22:09
1911

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=41878313

William J. Exall death Q2 1922 Croyden 2A/381
Amelia Exall death Q2 1923 Croyden 2A/334

cbcarolyn
16-10-19, 22:27
good find Elaine :)

Elaine
16-10-19, 22:42
Mystery solved for one!

cbcarolyn
16-10-19, 22:53
that pesky 1881 census that they seemed to have been missed from.

GallowayLass
17-10-19, 10:21
Well done everybody. Great finds.

thomasalbertedward
17-10-19, 10:52
Well done everybody. Great finds.

I second that GallowayLass.

Elaine and Carolyn, you are both utter champions.

Thank you so much :)

Am going to see if I can narrow down when James Martin died - between the 1881 and 1891 census records.

Thanks again :)

cbcarolyn
17-10-19, 11:07
on a seperate note, I have taken out a FMP sub recently and looked at the latest records released this Friday, and see that they have some monumental inscriptions for Heston and Isleworth, they do have some Adams, but couldn't see any that we have mentioned. Not sure if you have any others in your tree.

i don't think your areas were newly added.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/middlesex-monumental-inscriptions

thomasalbertedward
17-10-19, 12:03
on a seperate note, I have taken out a FMP sub recently and looked at the latest records released this Friday, and see that they have some monumental inscriptions for Heston and Isleworth, they do have some Adams, but couldn't see any that we have mentioned. Not sure if you have any others in your tree.

i don't think your areas were newly added.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/middlesex-monumental-inscriptions

Thanks Carolyn :)

I have so many Adams individuals in my family background - my paternal grandfather's grandmother was an Adams/Piggott by way of Buckinghamshire/Hounslow and my paternal grandmother also had Adams as a maiden name - though I'm pretty sure a different branch of the surname. That second branch is my next research project and a bit of a challenge since my grandmother didn't speak to her father after 1937 when her mother died and he remarried - a long story.

I'm thinking that I might get a FMP sub as well next year :)