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MJLCarr
24-09-19, 16:08
Hello all,


I've been doing genealogy as a hobby for 10 year now but it's only recently that I've started exploring my mother's London routes. However with one of the branches there is an illegitimate child and no father. Now the story starts with my great-great grandfather Henry Arthur Chapman (b. 6 Sept 1886 - d.7 Jan 1949). I have his birth record and so know his mother's name is Alice Chapman but from his birth in Peckham all the way to his marriage of Emily Minnie Church in 1909 he is nowhere to be found in any of the records that I can definitively say is him. I also know nothing about his mother Alice.

On his marriage certificate he's put his father down as Henry Chapman - Deceased - Occupation: Clerk. I can find no evidence of any Henry Chapman.

If anyone could help out with this conundrum I would be very thankful. Most attempts to find anything about them by other family members has always ended in failure.

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 18:15
no sign of either Alice or Henry Arthur in 1901 census? but you have him in 1911?

MJLCarr
24-09-19, 18:17
no sign of either Alice or Henry Arthur in 1901 census? but you have him in 1911?

Yes he's married and living in Bermondsey working as a shipwright with his wife and young son.

Lin Fisher
24-09-19, 18:36
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0005910376

Could this be him in 1901. Born Peckham with Grandmother Elizabeth Chapman. She had a daughter Alice but surname frost. Widowed.

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 20:46
there is a school record on AncestryName: Hy Arth ChapmanGender: Male
Age: 8
Birth Date: 6 Sep 1886
Admission Date: 18 Mar 1895
School: Colls Road School
Notes: Colls Road School (0671) opened in 1951. Renamed Collingwood Secondary School in 1951. Amalgamated with Samuel Pepys School in 1982 to form Hatcham Wood School

no fathers name 28 Stafford Street.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1938/31949_213310-00100?pid=881067&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1938%26h%3D881067%26tid %3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi14954%2 6_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi14954&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.79021716.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 01:58
there is a school record on AncestryName: Hy Arth ChapmanGender: Male
Age: 8
Birth Date: 6 Sep 1886
Admission Date: 18 Mar 1895
School: Colls Road School
Notes: Colls Road School (0671) opened in 1951. Renamed Collingwood Secondary School in 1951. Amalgamated with Samuel Pepys School in 1982 to form Hatcham Wood School

no fathers name 28 Stafford Street.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1938/31949_213310-00100?pid=881067&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1938%26h%3D881067%26tid %3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi14954%2 6_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi14954&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.79021716.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453

Thanks for this. It must be him as its the same date of birth in the same area. It's interesting Alice is not registered in name of parent at all. It's also strange about Staffordshire street as the only streets I know Alice lived or worked on were Sandison Street or Choumert Road which are both in Peckham but not that close to the school.

cbcarolyn
25-09-19, 07:51
is the census correct that Lin found? It looked reasonable, she has children with her new name, and they were born in Tottenham. There might be school records for them, I didnt look very hard as wasn't sure if it was correct.

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 12:38
is the census correct that Lin found? It looked reasonable, she has children with her new name, and they were born in Tottenham. There might be school records for them, I didnt look very hard as wasn't sure if it was correct.

I was thinking that that was Alice and Henry the only problem is the location. Both Stoke Newington and Tottenham are far away from the Peckham area. With Daisy being 13 years old as well it seems strange to abandon your son in Peckham for school in South London to travel to North London and start a new family.

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 15:35
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0005910376

Could this be him in 1901. Born Peckham with Grandmother Elizabeth Chapman. She had a daughter Alice but surname frost. Widowed.

I've done a little more digging and that can't be him as a Henry Chapman appears in the 1911 census as a miller's salesman when my Henry Chapman has moved to Bermondsey as a shipwright.

teasie
25-09-19, 15:44
What about this from 1891?
19 Pilkington Road, Camberwell
Alice Chapman 26 Visitor b Marylebone
Harry Chapman 4 b Peckham
Percy Chapman 1 b Peckham


There were a couple of possible Percy Chapman births, including this:
CHAPMAN, FRANK PERCIVAL (no mmn) GRO Ref: 1890 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 937

Checking the school records brings up this for Colls Road School:

Frank P Chapman born 07 Jan 1890, admitted 24 Apr 1895, Father: John Chapman, Address: 28 Stafford Street

I have to leave for now, but perhaps someone can find a link.

cbcarolyn
25-09-19, 16:34
What about this from 1891?
19 Pilkington Road, Camberwell
Alice Chapman 26 Visitor b Marylebone
Harry Chapman 4 b Peckham
Percy Chapman 1 b Peckham


There were a couple of possible Percy Chapman births, including this:
CHAPMAN, FRANK PERCIVAL (no mmn) GRO Ref: 1890 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 937

Checking the school records brings up this for Colls Road School:

Frank P Chapman born 07 Jan 1890, admitted 24 Apr 1895, Father: John Chapman, Address: 28 Stafford Street

I have to leave for now, but perhaps someone can find a link.

here is the link:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1938/31949_213310-00500?pid=923534&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1938%26h%3D923534%26tid %3D161314848%26pid%3D222132118565%26usePUB%3Dtrue% 26_phsrc%3DfVi15085%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222132118565&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15085&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.49728038.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453#?imageId=31949_213310-00500

he came from Albert street school same as Henry,

NB on the next page you can see that Henry left on either (or maybe both!) 6 Dec 1895 or 28 Jul 1896

I guess "john" is maybe just a name to put in the records?

cbcarolyn
25-09-19, 17:05
this is the census:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_474_477-0641?pid=8561045&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D6598%26h%3D8561045%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222131960829%26usePUB%3Dtrue %26_phsrc%3DfVi15118%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222131960829&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15118&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.8381106.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453

teasie
25-09-19, 17:36
Back. Still can't link them as yet, but the OP mentions that Henry Arthur married Emily Minnie Church, and in 1911 they were in Bermondsey. This may well be one of their sons, making it highly likely that Frank Percival Chapman b1890 is either a brother or a close relative:

CHAPMAN, FRANK PERCIVAL mmn CHURCH
GRO Reference: 1913 M Quarter in ST. OLAVE (BERMONDSEY) Volume 01D Page 485

cbcarolyn
25-09-19, 17:51
Here is one tying them together I think

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_190657-00658?pid=16163313&treeid=161314848&personid=222132118565&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15134&_phstart=successSource

reg of electors - Henry and Frank and Emily Minnie

Just off out - so not fully checked!

cbcarolyn
25-09-19, 17:56
just realised posts have crossed, so probably son and not brother

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 17:59
just realised posts have crossed, so probably son and not brother

Yes Harry James and Frank Percival are both my Great Great Uncles

teasie
25-09-19, 18:16
What do you make of the Frank Percival Chapman b 1890, who was at the same school, at the same time, using the same address, per my earlier posts?

It may be worth ordering his birth certificate if all else fails.

The 1891 census I mentioned has Alice Chapman & her two children visiting Agnes Coles & her children, and this is one of their births:
COLES, ALICE MARY mmn CHAPMAN GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 417

A tree on Ancestry has Agnes Chapman b Cheltenham 1858 as the daughter of George Chapman & Elizabeth Edwards.

This is them in 1881 in Camberwell, including daughter Alice Chapman
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LNDRG11_674_677-0488/21117200?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120147139/person/230198442550/facts/citation/760420131395/edit/record

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 18:21
What do you make of the Frank Percival Chapman b 1890, who was at the same school, at the same time, using the same address, per my earlier posts?

It may be worth ordering his birth certificate if all else fails.

The 1891 census I mentioned has Alice Chapman & her two children visiting Agnes Coles & her children, and this is one of their births:
COLES, ALICE MARY mmn CHAPMAN GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 417

A tree on Ancestry has Agnes Chapman b Cheltenham 1858 as the daughter of George Chapman & Elizabeth Edwards.

This is them in 1881 in Camberwell, including daughter Alice Chapman
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LNDRG11_674_677-0488/21117200?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120147139/person/230198442550/facts/citation/760420131395/edit/record

I am almost sure it's them. Choumert Road is the same road that my Alice Chapman lived on according to Henry's birth certificate. It's interesting to note Henry wasn't born on the road but rather a few streets down at Sandison street.

Thank you for your help so far!

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 18:22
What do you make of the Frank Percival Chapman b 1890, who was at the same school, at the same time, using the same address, per my earlier posts?

It may be worth ordering his birth certificate if all else fails.

The 1891 census I mentioned has Alice Chapman & her two children visiting Agnes Coles & her children, and this is one of their births:
COLES, ALICE MARY mmn CHAPMAN GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 417

A tree on Ancestry has Agnes Chapman b Cheltenham 1858 as the daughter of George Chapman & Elizabeth Edwards.

This is them in 1881 in Camberwell, including daughter Alice Chapman
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LNDRG11_674_677-0488/21117200?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120147139/person/230198442550/facts/citation/760420131395/edit/record

I've also ordered Franks Birth certificate to see if he too was born with no father named on the certificate.

Olde Crone Holden
25-09-19, 18:49
There is no father named on Frank's birth certificate.

OC

MJLCarr
25-09-19, 18:58
There is no father named on Frank's birth certificate.

OC

Hello OC,
Do you have access to the certificate?

teasie
25-09-19, 19:18
Hello OC,
Do you have access to the certificate?

There is no mother's maiden name listed on the GRO indexes, which indicates an illegitimate birth.

Olde Crone Holden
25-09-19, 19:20
As teasie says, there is no mother's maiden name listed on the GRO index and that indicates an illegitimate birth.

OC

cbcarolyn
25-09-19, 20:35
is this the 1901 census: Agnes is right age and birthplace, so possibly remarried, and Henry now apprentice shipbuilder, I don't think this has been found. No sign of Frank or Alice


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LNDRG13_505_506-0460?pid=3811763&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7814%26h%3D3811763%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222131960784%26usePUB%3Dtrue %26_phsrc%3DfVi15182%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222131960784&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15182&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.21422651.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453
Name: Henry Chapman
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Peckham, London, England
Civil Parish: Camberwell
Search Photos: Search for 'Camberwell' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Piece: 506
Folio: 53
Page Number: 42
Household schedule number: 278

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Rifflart 60
Agnes Rifflart 42
Charles Alfred Rifflart 2
Henry Chapman 14

teasie
25-09-19, 22:54
Oooh, great find!!!

Charles Rifflart married in 1899 and there are 5 names on the page rather than the usual four, including Agnes CHAPMAN and Agnes COLES.

Son Charles Alfred Rifflart's birth has the mmn of CHAPMAN.

teasie
25-09-19, 23:29
Ive been patiently waiting for Ancestry to start working again, and it was worth it!

In 1911 The Rifflart's are at 23 King Arthur Street, Peckham, and I knew I'd seen that address before - it's the one Henry Arthur Chapman gave when he married Emily Minnie Church in 1909.

Brilliant find cbcarolyn, and ties it all together.

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 07:48
Good to tie them all together.

Still no sign of Alice, or Frank. I did notice that Agnes' girls are on some ancestry trees going to Canada. I don't have WW ancestry, did wonder if Alice, maybe even Frank went with them. As I can't see any deaths for them.

I am in Lille for a few days, been waiting for rain to stop, and interesting ancestry working well, maybe on a different server!

MJLCarr
26-09-19, 10:22
Good to tie them all together.

Still no sign of Alice, or Frank. I did notice that Agnes' girls are on some ancestry trees going to Canada. I don't have WW ancestry, did wonder if Alice, maybe even Frank went with them. As I can't see any deaths for them.

I am in Lille for a few days, been waiting for rain to stop, and interesting ancestry working well, maybe on a different server!

without wishing to seem too morbid would it be possible to that something bad happened to them? I mean Henry named his second child Frank Percival? It would also explain why he's gone to live with his aunt and uncle whilst they have dropped off the radar. What I don't understand is how Alice managed to look after the two boys without a husband or a job.

Olde Crone Holden
26-09-19, 12:11
How do you know she didn't have a job? Or a man, lol. People's needs were a lot less back then and as long as you could pay the rent and buy a few potatoes and a bit of firewood, that was all you needed really.

On the other hand, you cannot tell from census records alone what they suffered or how they managed to survive day to day.

OC

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 13:47
that is probably why she was with her sister at times, as they shared childcare? Also why I wondered if she went to Canada as they were close.

Odd that there are no obvious deaths either. She could have married too, but can't find one.

teasie
26-09-19, 14:08
It looks like Albert John Coles joined the army in 1897 aged 14 years & 9 months, and then deserted 25 May 1899. He is therefore likely to be hard to trace!

Nellie Agnes (born Agnes Nellie) married Charles Lewis Manley in Welland, Ontario in 1928. The certificate confirms her parents as John Coles & Agnes Chapman. Her residence at marriage was Buffalo, NY, and there are records of her travelling to and from the UK to US, quoting her address in the UK as c/o her mother at 23 King Arthur Street, Asylum Road, Peckham. A witness was John Murrell, and the grooms parents were George William Manley & Mary Ellen Murrell.

An Alice Mary Coles married Frederick Murrell 5 Aug 1903 in Lincoln, Ontario. No parents were given for the bride and it instead says “Was not able to tell. In Canada from a child”.

Nellie is in Buffalo on the 1920 & 1925 census as a maid, and in both she indicates she has been in the US since 1904. In 1915 it looks like she is a maid in Wellsville, Allegany, NY

Searching Canadian records, aboard the Sardinian departing Liverpool on 9 Mar 1893, travelling as a party with the Maria Rye Homes & arriving Halifax 19 Mar 1893 with a final destination of Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario were the following:
Alice Coles 7
Agnes Coles 9

I’ve looked for Frank Percival Chapman, but the nearest I can find is a departure 28 May 1910 aboard the Sicilian with a party from Barnardo Homes & arriving Quebec 10 Jun 1910 heading for Toronto, Ontario: Frank Chapman aged 11

The archives mention that the August 1918 edition of Barnardo’s ‘Ups & Downs” magazine (Vol 21, page 12) mentions Frank Chapman who arrived 1910 in the Roll of Honour (Canadian Overseas Force), and in the same issue, at page 32, they publish a letter from Frank Chapman. However, two Frank Chapman’s arrived 1910, so it may not be him.

I have to go out for a while, so hopefully others will pick up the search.....

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 15:46
I’ve looked for Frank Percival Chapman, but the nearest I can find is a departure 28 May 1910 aboard the Sicilian with a party from Barnardo Homes & arriving Quebec 10 Jun 1910 heading for Toronto, Ontario: Frank Chapman aged 11

I have to go out for a while, so hopefully others will pick up the search.....
I spotted another ship last night, from Liverpool July 18 1901, but I couldn't work out why so many children on board, assumed them to be orphans :( I decided he would have been taken in by Agnes if orphaned, and a long way from Liverpool! in 1910 Frank was 20

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2997/40610_B000351-00217?pid=37508937&treeid=161314848&personid=222132118565&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15465&_phstart=successSource#?imageId=40610_B000351-00217

MJLCarr
26-09-19, 16:13
How do you know she didn't have a job? Or a man, lol. People's needs were a lot less back then and as long as you could pay the rent and buy a few potatoes and a bit of firewood, that was all you needed really.

On the other hand, you cannot tell from census records alone what they suffered or how they managed to survive day to day.

OC

Very true I do see the name Henry popping up in this thread quite a bit and Henry Arthur Chapman does mention a Henry on his marriage Certificate. Perhaps he knew his father. I suppose too that it seems the Chapman's were living in a middle-class area of London so she might've been supported by them. What i'm also confused about is why Henry Arthur seems to have been born in the Nearby Sandison Street even though Alice still says she is living at the family home in Choumert road? Also why they seem to be moving so often in such a short space of time!

teasie
26-09-19, 16:47
in 1910 Frank was 20 Oops, I think I mentally transposed the last two digits and deducted 1890 from 1901.

I'd spotted that 1901 sailing too but then forgot to go back to it, so Im glad you posted it. Ship Numidian, departure 18 July 1901.
From the London Evening Standard 19 July 1901:

"The National Waif's Association (Dr Barnardo's Homes) yesterday despatched 331 boys from Paddington for Canada via Liverpool. The lads sailed in the Numidian, of the Allan line."

Olde Crone Holden
26-09-19, 17:15
Well, you are born where you are born, lol. Maybe she went into labour at a friend's s house, or maybe the friend's house was a better place to give birth. Do you have a house number?

Poor people moved a lot, either because they were evicted or because they couldn't pay the rent so.just did a moonlight flit. They also moved to better or worse accommodation as their income fluctuated or their needs changed.

OC

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 17:41
Very true I do see the name Henry popping up in this thread quite a bit and Henry Arthur Chapman does mention a Henry on his marriage Certificate. Perhaps he knew his father. I suppose too that it seems the Chapman's were living in a middle-class area of London so she might've been supported by them. What i'm also confused about is why Henry Arthur seems to have been born in the Nearby Sandison Street even though Alice still says she is living at the family home in Choumert road? Also why they seem to be moving so often in such a short space of time!
I would plot all the siblings and parents addresses, she may be staying with them also. You might find same addresses cropping up.

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 17:46
Oops, I think I mentally transposed the last two digits and deducted 1890 from 1901.

I'd spotted that 1901 sailing too but then forgot to go back to it, so Im glad you posted it. Ship Numidian, departure 18 July 1901.
From the London Evening Standard 19 July 1901:

"The National Waif's Association (Dr Barnardo's Homes) yesterday despatched 331 boys from Paddington for Canada via Liverpool. The lads sailed in the Numidian, of the Allan line."

so if this was 'our' Frank it is likely that Alice died? or was in workhouse, I feel we should be able to find her somewhere.

331 boys to Canada - I can't help feeling sad seeing this, but maybe they did have better lives? seeing some of the recent stories about Aus where they were used as cheap hard labour.

Did they pick up boys from all over London, as Paddington not on the doorstep, but not that far.

teasie
26-09-19, 17:46
It doesnt really help, but I think this may be Agnes/Nellie Coles in 1901 in Peel, Ontario. DoB as 30 Nov 1883, England, and in Canada since 1892
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8826/z000094060?pid=6514153&treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=suT26023&_phstart=successSource

If the Agnes & Alice Coles travelling with Maria Rye Homes in 1893 are Agnes's daughters then she was clearly struggling by then, so Alice may well have been in a similar position.

Re the Paddington reference for the 1901 sailing, I think this may just have been where the Barnardo's home was. Probably needs further research.

Olde Crone Holden
26-09-19, 18:08
Dr Barnado went all over London gathering up children that HE thought were being neglected and sent them off to the commonwealth countries. Some of those children did indeed have better lives but that was sheer luck, nothing to do with the scheme. A shameful chapter in British history.

OC

teasie
26-09-19, 18:10
The records for Camberwell look like they are mainly at the London Metropolitan Archives: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Camberwell/

MJLCarr
26-09-19, 18:29
Well, you are born where you are born, lol. Maybe she went into labour at a friend's s house, or maybe the friend's house was a better place to give birth. Do you have a house number?

Poor people moved a lot, either because they were evicted or because they couldn't pay the rent so.just did a moonlight flit. They also moved to better or worse accommodation as their income fluctuated or their needs changed.

OC

Aha so true! According to the certificate her address is No.97 Choumert Road and she gave birth at No.39 Sandison Street.

teasie
26-09-19, 19:07
The family certainly had a lot of connections to Canada. I’ve very briefly looked at Elizabeth Mary Chapman, who was on the 1881 with Agnes, Eliza & parents as Elizabeth M Gainey (Elizabeth Mary Chapman m David Gainey 1874, so I assume this is her. A David Gainey died in 1884).

In 1888 she married George Frederick Ridge, and in 1891 they are in Montpelier Road, Peckham with several children, including George A Gainey aged 16, from Elizabeth’s first marriage. The youngest child is Fergus aged 1 (Fergus Frederick Ridge), and following him quickly brings us to the entire Ridge family in Manitoba, Winnipeg by 1906, immigration year 1903.

I think this may need a few certificates – especially Agnes’s second marriage – and possibly a separate tree plotting out to see if Alice pops up anywhere, perhaps as a witness to a marriage.

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 20:59
No Alice or Frank/Percy in Canada? It would be nice to see her over there too :)

MJLCarr
26-09-19, 21:28
I might be being a bit thick here but I can find neither 28 Stafford Street nor 97 Choumert Road on electoral registers. Trying to find these addresses on any Census is also like looking for a needle in a haystack. Can anyone please find them or please tell me what I could try to do to see whether one of these addresses potentially housed Alice's man? I also found one workhouse record for an Alice Chapman but I think Ancestry has mislabelled it.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll? indiv=1&dbid=60391&h=6529624&tid=86670011&pid=432119121131&usePUB=true&_phsrc=OXz15819&_phstart=successSource (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60391&h=6529624&tid=86670011&pid=432119121131&usePUB=true&_phsrc=OXz15819&_phstart=successSource)

Once again thank you all for your help. I genuinely couldn't have gotten this far in solving the mystery without your help!

cbcarolyn
26-09-19, 21:56
Addresses on census are not always easy. 1911 and 1901 are more searchable on ancestry using the keyword box, and tick exact match, I often do a "google" and stumble upon links that way, to adresses

Not all reg of electors are on there, I think Surrey are a bit thin on the ground. And not everyone could vote, you had to be a property owner, so poorer areas won't be on there I would guess. Not sure of the dates of reform.

I am off now, but can have a look much later tomorrow.

Olde Crone Holden
26-09-19, 22:03
Women got the vote finally in 1928. Before that they had to be a property owner or a "forty shilling freeholder" so it is doubtful that any of the women in your searches would be on the electoral register.

Have you looked at newspapers to see if any of your names crop up?

OC

teasie
26-09-19, 23:44
Its much easier to search addresses on FMP or the Genealogist. I assume you’re interested in the years close to Henry’s birth.

1881
Choumert Road only goes up to No. 78
28 Stafford Street – John & Ann Donovan, Michael & Margaret McCarthy & children

1891
97 Choumert Road – James & Maria O’Mara & daughter Nora, plus Ada Toby 21 b Egypt
28 Stafford Street – Caroline Fordham 68 widow, and Mary Clark, widow, Arthur Clark son 24, Charles Brown, 36, Friend.

As mentioned on an earlier post, the workhouse & guardian records for Camberwell are at London Metropolitan Archives. They don't appear to have been digitised on Ancestry.

teasie
26-09-19, 23:56
I also checked 1901 just for completeness:

97 Choumert Road: Ada M Brown 55 plus 4 daughters & 1 son (aged 16)

28 Stafford Street is full to the brim!!!
William & Alice Howell & 7 children (aged 1-12)
Thomas & Matilda Spain & 3 children (aged 1-7)
William & Emily Jones & 3 children (aged 1-5)

MJLCarr
01-10-19, 11:13
I know it's a bit cheeky to ask but does anyone have Ancestry world? A few documents from the Canadian CEF personnel files have cropped up for Frank Percival and I dont have access to them. They are from:

Canada, WWI CEF Personnel Files, 1914-1918
Canada, WWI CEF Attestation Papers, 1914-1918

Katarzyna
01-10-19, 11:40
Both transcriptions give the same information. Is this your Frank? If so I can send the other info.



Name:
Frank Percival


Birth Date:
23 Jun 1890


Birth Location:
Cheshire, England


Relative:
Sarah Ann Percival


Regiment Number:
757158


He is not married : Sarah is NOK

Attestation date 16 Oct 1915

teasie
01-10-19, 11:55
You don't need Ancestry for Canadian WW1 files, they're free to search & download on the Canadian Archives site:
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/search.aspx

I already checked a few days ago and didn't see him, but no harm in re-checking in case I missed him

teasie
01-10-19, 12:05
Actually, looking again I was filtering with born in England, which doesn't seem to work properly, so I'll re-check too.

Katarzyna
01-10-19, 12:11
Yes, he is there too and a sad end.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=563925

Click on the Digitised service file for all 36 pages.

teasie
01-10-19, 12:21
Katarzyna, we're looking for Frank Percival CHAPMAN.

I think the man that may have come up in your Ancestry search is Frank Chapman 256637 born Peckham. His DoB is given as 22/06/1889 and later 22/01/1889, but the only relative mentioned is his friend (later wife) Hilda May Rooney.

teasie
01-10-19, 12:28
Katarzyna, we're looking for Frank Percival CHAPMAN.

I think the man that may have come up in your Ancestry search is Frank Chapman 256637 born Peckham. His DoB is given as 22/06/1889 and later 22/01/1889, but the only relative mentioned is his friend (later wife) Hilda May Rooney.

The 1921 census with Hilda in Saskatchewan shows that he arrived in Canada 1900, so that broadly fits with the Barnardo's record. Could this be the breakthrough?

teasie
01-10-19, 12:37
Aargh! Saskatchewan marriages aren't online yet, and deaths are only available up to 1917

http://genealogy.ehealthsask.ca/vsgs_srch.aspx

teasie
01-10-19, 13:42
I know the age is way out, but I'm wondering if this could be him? Hilda May Roney (not Rooney) was born c1893, which matches Hilda May Chapman in the same cemetery, and there seems to be an obituary on Newspapers.Com (which I don't have access to) saying she was the widow of Francis P, who died in 1970, which marches this headstone.

Hilda May Chapman: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/154653460/hilda-may-chapman
Francis Percival Chapman: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/154653418

teasie
01-10-19, 14:01
Hmm the only problem with those deaths (apart from the age) is no mention of Phylis, who was on the 1921 census. More work needed methinks!

cbcarolyn
01-10-19, 14:17
he could have still gone with mother as we can't find her either? I don't have WW ancestry so haven't searched any records, did notice some census records, but by 1921 Sarah could have even married.

Hadn't thought that there were free records out there. :)

cbcarolyn
01-10-19, 14:38
...that should say mother Alice

cbcarolyn
05-10-19, 23:31
There is an Alice Chapman on the Canada census, could be her? She could say she is widowed, especially if she is in contact with Frank:
First name(s) AliceLast name Chapman
Sex Female
Birth year 1865
Birth date Apr 1865
Birth place England
Birth place as transcribed England
Race or Tribe English
Marital status Widowed
Relationship to head of household Servant
Year 1911
Immigration year 1904
Family number 60
Subdistrict name Okanagan - Enderby
Subdistrict number 38
District name Yale and Cariboo
District number 14
Province British Columbia
Country Canada
Film T-20339
Page number 7