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Olde Crone Holden
24-09-19, 09:44
Mary Torr was born about 1838 in Manchester (probably).

In 1871 she marries Edward Carney. Before that happens though, she has several children registered as Torr, with no mmn, so I assume no father's name on birth cert.I

Please can anyone see her in 1871 (probably Carney, she married 1st Q) or even in 1861 when she might have had Edwwrd born 1859 and Elizabeth Ann 1861.

I am trying to work out if Edward was father to all her children and if so, why he didn't marry her sooner!

Thanks in advance.

OC

Chrissie Smiff
24-09-19, 10:42
I have had a quick look OC but have to go out now. I will have another look when I get chance if someone hasn't solved it by then.

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 11:30
Is this it? 1871:https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_4042_4044-0122?pid=29153409&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D29153409%26t id%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi14917 %26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi14917&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.45538724.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453I don't know the names of the other childrenName: Edward CarneyAge: 33Estimated birth year: 1838Relation: HeadGender: MaleWhere born: ManchesterCivil Parish: ManchesterEcclesiastical parish: St AndrewCounty/Island: LancashireCountry: EnglandRegistration district: ManchesterSub-registration district: London RoadED, institution, or vessel: 15Household schedule number: 194Piece: 4042Folio: 108Name AgeEdward Carney 33Mary Carney 34Edward Carney 11Elizabeth Carney 10Mary Emma Carney 2Thomas Carney 1

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 14:09
wow sorry that was a terrible post, internet went as was on Eurostar!

Is this it? 1871:https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...63.1543608453 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_4042_4044-0122?pid=29153409&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D29153409%26t id%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi14917 %26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi14917&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.45538724.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453I)

Name: Edward Carney
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: 1838
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: London Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Household schedule number: 194
Piece: 4042
Folio: 108
Page Number: 32
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Carney 33
Mary Carney 34
Edward Carney 11
Elizabeth Carney 10
Mary Emma Carney 2
Thomas Carney 1

Olde Crone Holden
24-09-19, 15:18
Thankyou Carolyn yes, that's her.

So annoying, I don't know who is the father of all those children!

OC

GallowayLass
24-09-19, 17:12
Did any of the children marry OC? There might be a different father one of those certs. A slightly different situation applied in a brick wall of mine. Elaine in Spain and Mary in Italy found me a marriage of a missing Mary Morrey/Murray who had been born illegitimately in a workhouse to Ann Stockton, one of three of Ann’s children in the same situation. No father is on any of the birth certs. The couple were together with Mary in the 1841 census and also on later ones along with another one of the workhouse born girls and the numerous other children who actually were 100% theirs. Mary was always known as Morrey/Murray but I couldn’t find her marriage. The girls spotted it. After all that time she had married as Mary Stockton and no father’s name on marriage cert.

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 17:38
I think this is a red herring but transcribed as Edward Farr and Mary Tarr no children

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/LANRG9_2942_2946-0020?pid=14448124&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8767%26h%3D14448124%26t id%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi14933 %26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi14933&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.45079972.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 17:44
and a Mary Torr here in Gorton, Manchester, at home with parents no children, so probably another red herring.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/LANRG9_2871_2875-1019?pid=9255761&treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi14934&_phstart=successSource

such an unusual surname, guess open to mistranscribes. guess you must have found this one

Olde Crone Holden
24-09-19, 17:48
GL, don't want to buy mcs, these are right at the edge of my tree, lol. I was given some information about this couple by a contact who doesn't appear to be aware of this query over paternity and I just wanted to get my ducks in a row before I query it with her.

Carolyn, I can't see the ancestry info as I don't have a sub, but I don't think they are mine, I have Edward in 1861 living with his mother, unmarried. Thankyou for looking though.

OC

Olde Crone Holden
24-09-19, 19:34
Ah, just managed to find the marriages of the earlier children, two don't name any father at all, one makes up a face saving name which isn't Carney and those three all marry as Torr, so I am reasonably certain EC wasn't their father.

OC

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 19:53
Not solveable, unless 1861 census has a clue. Maybe Edward "Farr" is her brother hence Edward being a family name. Not that helps!

cbcarolyn
24-09-19, 21:55
this is the 1871 census if it helps, I have found marriage for Mary and Edward and says her fathers name is Benjamin

Name: Mary Torr
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: 1836
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Benjamin Torr
Mother's name: Hannah Torr
Gender: Female
Where born: Gorton, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Gorton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter and St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:


Occupation:


Condition as to marriage:


View image
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 7
Piece: 2875
Folio: 25
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Benjamin Torr 69
Hannah Torr 59
James Torr 34
Robert Torr 27
Mary Torr 25
Hannah Torr 22
Elizabeth Torr 14

is this same family? or am I in a muddle?

Is Edward maybe not even her child? maybe a sisters child

Olde Crone Holden
24-09-19, 22:44
Carolyn

Yes, I think that is the right family in 1861. Edward (1859) and Elizabeth Ann (1861) are with Mary and Edward Carney in 1871 so goodness knows where they were hiding in 1861. They were both registered as Torr but I suppose they could be her sister's children, lol!

OC