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MJLCarr
12-09-19, 10:39
Hello all,

My name is Matthew and I am researching some of my supposedly scottish ancestors. I have now hit what appears to be a brick wall. I have a marriage between a David Fraser and a Marion MacLeod in 1780 at St. George's Hanover Square in London, nowhere near Scotland. I only have the Pallot's Marriage Index card for them which gives the husbands parish as St. James' Westminster. I am sure that Marion must have also comes from an important family as the MacLeod name has been passed down through my family.

If anyone has any ideas where I could go from here I would be most grateful. I have mainly been using Ancestry for my research.

Thank you all,
Matthew Carr

Anne in Carlisle
12-09-19, 12:03
They were married at St George Hanover Square on 15 Feb 1780. David Fraser was of St James Westminster and Marion was of 'this parish' (St George H Squ). Both signed their names.

Witnesses were Alex[ander] Macleod and Arch[ibald] Campbell.

So no help there except all the names are obviously Scottish.

Anne

Olde Crone Holden
12-09-19, 13:39
Are you able to bring them forward into the census years? Important families often had homes in London as well as their ancestral seats elsewhere.

OC

MJLCarr
12-09-19, 14:21
Sadly I don't think the lived long enough to come up in census. Their descendants related to me lived in St. Marylebone at the earliest census date. Another child lived in India as a Captain in the East India Company. David Fraser apparently was a harness maker and member of the Society of Arts. The Scottish names simply must mean a link, it's just there's no way to find out.

GallowayLass
12-09-19, 19:27
Try looking for the apprenticeship indenture for David Fraser. If he was apprenticed in London hopefully his papers may be recorded. I know some are online but sorry I’m not sure where exactly. Hopefully someone will point you in the right direction. The East India Company kept good records,try looking in the National Archives online catalogue and also on FIBIS for him (Families in British India Society) https://www.fibis.org/ You will need a sub to see FIBIS records.

Elaine
12-09-19, 22:29
I want to note this David as it's niggling me..

I found a newspaper clip of a David Fraser who is an army accoutrement maker in the newspaper and the one mainly in the Westminster rate books in St. James.

There is a will for a David Frazer in the same area with the same occupation

David Frazer
Probate Date: 10 Apr 1809
Residence: Golden Square, Middlesex, England

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=FhD25158&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=5111&gsfn=david&gsln=fraser&cp=0&msddy=1810&new=1&rank=1&uidh=adw&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=36&fh=1&h=457351&recoff=&ml_rpos=2

but as far as I can make out says 5 heirs and names ? Donald Mcleod as executor, it's just David's signature I am not sure of.

Olde Crone Holden
12-09-19, 22:37
This is probably not relevant, but half my tree is Scottish and I found that many Davids were actually Daniels and that Donald is the Gaelic form of Daniel!

OC

MJLCarr
13-09-19, 19:59
Looking up the MacLeods. The Donald MacLeod may be a brother of Marion as one of the records I found relating to Marion was a baptism on 20th Dec 1759 with a Donald Macleod as her father in Ardersier near Inverness and Culloden. If it's them then it's interesting as to why they have travelled so far south.

Elaine
13-09-19, 20:05
There's a will for a Donald too, wasn't too sure on that one.

wulliam
13-09-19, 20:38
This is probably not relevant, but half my tree is Scottish and I found that many Davids were actually Daniels and that Donald is the Gaelic form of Daniel!

OC

That's not quite right, OC...Donald is the English form of the Gaelic name Domhnull....which is pronounced roughly Dohull....which when heard and transcribed by a non-Gaelic speaker was often interpreted as Daniel!

Olde Crone Holden
13-09-19, 20:44
Wulliam

I stand corrected! I just noticed that all the Donalds turned into Daniels around 1750 and ASSUMED (lol) it was a matter of accents- my umpty times great grandfather and his wife were Donald and Grizel one year, the next they were Daniel and Grace!

The Daniel/David confusion is entirely to do with copperplate writing, the outline of the two names is identical.

OC

MJLCarr
13-09-19, 20:58
That's not quite right, OC...Donald is the English form of the Gaelic name Domhnull....which is pronounced roughly Dohull....which when heard and transcribed by a non-Gaelic speaker was often interpreted as Daniel!

Hi William,
I know this may not be in your field of expertise but have you ever heard of a Macleod family that was living in London in the 1780s? I may rightly or wrongly presume they were of some importance given the Macleod passed on through our family as a surname and is the tartan we wear.

wulliam
13-09-19, 22:05
Hi William,
I know this may not be in your field of expertise but have you ever heard of a Macleod family that was living in London in the 1780s? I may rightly or wrongly presume they were of some importance given the Macleod passed on through our family as a surname and is the tartan we wear.

Hi! I've spent the last hour or so perusing various books I have looking for a Marion Macleod who married a Fraser. Nothing so far, but I'll keep looking!

wulliam
16-09-19, 20:50
Hi again,
I've spent some more time looking through what I have, but haven't had any luck.
Do any descendants of David & Marion have any other distinctive Scottish names which may have been passed down from their families?
Also, are there any male line descendants of David alive? If so, a Y-DNA test (probably with FTDNA who have an extensive Macleod project) may point you towards one part of Scotland.
All the best with your future hunt!

MJLCarr
20-09-19, 13:32
Hi again,
I've spent some more time looking through what I have, but haven't had any luck.
Do any descendants of David & Marion have any other distinctive Scottish names which may have been passed down from their families?
Also, are there any male line descendants of David alive? If so, a Y-DNA test (probably with FTDNA who have an extensive Macleod project) may point you towards one part of Scotland.
All the best with your future hunt!

Sadly not. They had two daughters called Amelia and Jane and a son called John Small Henry. That's about it

vera2013
20-09-19, 14:56
I can see x 6 children for a David and Marion Fraser bap St James, Westminster. Only one with a Scottish middle name ie Archibald Campbell Fraser b 1783. One other was a General in the E India Madras Infantry (14th)

FMP have Westminster St James bap registers to browse. Have looked from 1850 but not seeing a David Fraser but likely to have been bap Scotland.

David Fraser not in Ancestry indenture registers

Vera

vera2013
20-09-19, 22:56
FMP have Westminster St James bap registers to browse. Have looked from 1850 but not seeing a David Fraser but likely to have been bap Scot

EDIT looked from 1750

Vera

MJLCarr
21-09-19, 17:44
I can see x 6 children for a David and Marion Fraser bap St James, Westminster. Only one with a Scottish middle name ie Archibald Campbell Fraser b 1783. One other was a General in the E India Madras Infantry (14th)

FMP have Westminster St James bap registers to browse. Have looked from 1850 but not seeing a David Fraser but likely to have been bap Scotland.

David Fraser not in Ancestry indenture registers

Vera

Hi Vera,
I only have four children I've discovered. What children have you found?

vera2013
21-09-19, 18:31
1 Jane Fraser b 11/08/1781 bp 22/08/1781
F David m Marion Westminster

2 Archibald Campbell Fraser b 1783 bp 1783 St James, Westminster, f David m Marion
??? 30/04/1804/Allegation for m between Archibald Fraser 21 St Martin in the Field and Alice Davison 21 Kensington

3 William Charles b 18/06/1784/bp 08/07/1784
As above parents and church
Army General
Died 1859 Paddington buried All Souls Kensal Green

4 John Small Henry Fraser b 14/02/1786 bp 16/03/
1786
As above church and parents
Died 1868. Burial 18/01/1868 All Souls Kensal Green. Recorded to be in same grave as Wm Chas d 1859.

5 David Alexander Fraser b 25/06/1787 bp 05/08/1787
As above church, parents

6 Amelia Fraser b 10/12/1789 bp 14/02/1790
As above for Church and Parents
M Christopher R Read 16/05/1811 St James Westminster

Vera

Elaine
21-09-19, 21:41
There's quite a few references for the boys and Amelia's death is in the paper, but noticed this list

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f9hoAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=john+s+h+fraser+ship&source=bl&ots=u7Yc4BMdHj&sig=ACfU3U3JIKgRvW8xJfezj3OLZygJR0C8mA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz3Juj0uLkAhXxoVwKHUiSDOYQ6AEwDXoECAkQA Q#v=onepage&q=john%20s%20h%20fraser%20ship&f=false



he is with Donald 1813 also

Elaine
21-09-19, 21:52
This link names his heirs,

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3QkPAAAAYAAJ&q=Captain+John+Small+Henry+Fraser&dq=Captain+John+Small+Henry+Fraser&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAxvHY2eLkAhVGasAKHbkrDYgQ6AEIUzAH

Was hoping the announcements would have more details.

Elaine
21-09-19, 22:09
This is Donald's will

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=5111&h=82329&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD25645&_phstart=successSource

I looked at it before but now realise it's J. H. Fraser witness, there are brothers Charles & John, brother in law Alexander Macleod

Elaine
21-09-19, 23:04
Not quite what you are looking for but mentions lots of family an that Amelia's father was David Fraser

http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/singfreepressb19090605-1.2.30

MJLCarr
21-09-19, 23:23
This is Donald's will

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=5111&h=82329&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD25645&_phstart=successSource

I looked at it before but now realise it's J. H. Fraser witness, there are brothers Charles & John, brother in law Alexander Macleod

Thanks for this Elaine. Do we know how Donald is related to J.S.H. Fraser? I'm thinking either a cousin or an Uncle as J.S.H.'s mother was a MacLeod. It's also a shame I am no good at reading old wills; seems like there could be some really interesting stuff there!

Elaine
21-09-19, 23:41
There's no clue in the will as it just says witness, East India Company Records For John might lead somewhere as GallowayLass suggested post #5

Elaine
22-09-19, 22:00
Found these

http://indiafamily.bl.uk/ui/FullDisplay.aspx?RecordId=014-000314293

David Fraser
Event type:Biography
Start date:19 Jan
Start year:1818
Biographical notes:
Mrs. Sarah Fraser and children, David Fraser and Margaret Fraser, Bond, Passengers, Bombay, Amount of security: £900, Sureties: Christopher R. Read, Brabent Court, Philpot Lane, Merchant. John Nesbitt, Tokenhouse Yard, Merchant., Authority of Court: 7 Jan 1818

Transcribed by:
FIBIS
India Office Records Reference:Z/O/1/8 No. 1385
Presidency:Bombay

Check the source on the left handside for the dates

Has John S H baptism also

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=FhD25683&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=61468&gsfn=christopher&gsln=read&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&uidh=adw&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=37&fh=0&h=537670&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

Name: C R Read
Record Type: Register
Residence Date: 1793
Residence Place: India
Merchant Occ as 1841

Elaine
22-09-19, 23:43
This might be worth saving

http://www.heicshipslogs.co.uk/

Elaine
23-09-19, 21:50
Little bit of progress, David had died by 1811, Amelia's marriage announcement

Oxford Journal 25 May 1811

MJLCarr
24-09-19, 18:14
Found these

http://indiafamily.bl.uk/ui/FullDisplay.aspx?RecordId=014-000314293

David Fraser
Event type:Biography
Start date:19 Jan
Start year:1818
Biographical notes:
Mrs. Sarah Fraser and children, David Fraser and Margaret Fraser, Bond, Passengers, Bombay, Amount of security: £900, Sureties: Christopher R. Read, Brabent Court, Philpot Lane, Merchant. John Nesbitt, Tokenhouse Yard, Merchant., Authority of Court: 7 Jan 1818

Transcribed by:
FIBIS
India Office Records Reference:Z/O/1/8 No. 1385
Presidency:Bombay

Check the source on the left handside for the dates

Has John S H baptism also

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=FhD25683&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=61468&gsfn=christopher&gsln=read&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&uidh=adw&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=37&fh=0&h=537670&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

Name: C R Read
Record Type: Register
Residence Date: 1793
Residence Place: India
Merchant Occ as 1841

Thank you so much for these. I've ordered copies and also a few wills to see if I can unravel the relations. I am still convinced these MacLeods and Marion MacLeod are related i'm just not sure how.

Elaine
24-09-19, 22:38
Hopefully not too long to wait:)

Elaine
24-09-19, 23:59
Is this David Alexander?

Morning Post 03 February 1823

Death 1834 in Java

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vTo9AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA276&dq=david+alexander+fraser+batavia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGwOWVw-rkAhWkURUIHQa6AqAQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=david%20alexander%20fraser%20batavia&f=false

Anna died 1823 in Batavia

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vTo9AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA276&dq=david+alexander+fraser+batavia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUtP79v-rkAhXQBGMBHckSD4IQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=david%20alexander%20fraser%20batavia&f=false

This heading in google books search

Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society
1964 - ?Snippet view - ?More editions
Sacred To the memory of Anna Wife of David Alexander Fraser Esq. Merchant of Batavia Who died on the 18th Feb. 1823 Aged 27 years Simpson and Llewelyn Sct" Calcutta. 28. [Tombstone in black marble in the Chancel floor of 137 Part 1, ...

Elaine
25-09-19, 00:18
Anna burial info

http://bacsa.frontis.co/bin/aps_detail.php?id=613689

Photo of grave

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/37176271/anna-fraser

MJLCarr
12-10-19, 23:03
The Plot thickens!

I have just received some images from the British Library with David Fraser in them along with his son-in-law Christopher Rideout Read. In this Christopher of Brabant Court, Philpot lane along with a James Nesbitt put up £900 in security for a Mrs Sarah Fraser with Child, Mr David Fraser and Margaret Fraser. There are three columns I am struggling to make sense of but I seem to be unable to attach it to this post! By my guess it says they are passengers with residency in Bombay and under 'description of instrument' it says bond. Any ideas?

Elaine
12-10-19, 23:55
You can always send it to me and I will have a go at posting, will pm you.

Elaine
13-10-19, 00:00
Can't send you a message because of your settings, are you able to send one to me?

Elaine
13-10-19, 14:53
Posting the row dated 19th Jan 1818