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2weis
27-08-19, 07:13
I have suggestions that my great grandfather may have married in Bedwelty, that is despite having married later in South Australia with no reference to the 1st marriage
I have a reference to volume 11a page 153 in a marriage registry from Bedwelty April/May/ June/ 1867 but am unable to find a source to download it.
Any suggestions as to where i can achieve this.
I have let my family tree subscription lapse until i had more time to research.
The male i'M looking at is Denis (Dennis) Callaghan (O'Callaghan) possibly marrying Mary Ann (Anne) Sullivan (Sullivan) .
Any help or directions will be greatly appreciated
Brian

Anne in Carlisle
27-08-19, 07:22
You cannot download the certificate but need to buy it from the General Register Office. The will post it to you. The cost is £11.25 wherever in the world you are. Use the official website as others charge more. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You will need to create a login but that is free.
Anne

brentor boy
27-08-19, 07:29
The Dennis Callaghan in 1867 married either Mary Callnan or Eliza McCarthy so I do not think he is your man.

2weis
27-08-19, 07:33
brentor boy
We are not sure if the first marriage was to Mary or not
Brian

2weis
27-08-19, 07:34
Thank you Anne i will try that
Brian

brentor boy
27-08-19, 08:06
Between 1860-70 there are 16 Denis Callaghan (and variations) marriages recorded, and one Denis O'Callaghan. None appear to be to a Mary/ Anne Sullivan. Before you think of buying certificates I think you need to try and discover more about this first marriage. Even an approximation of where and when, and a partial name of the bride, could help reduce the options.

Just a thought. Have you traced him on any census? That might provide a name for his wife.

2weis
27-08-19, 08:19
i have some census record up to 1871 putting him in monmouthshire last address is as a lodger but the family stories are clouded around him
i have ordered the certificate and will see if it is of any help
i am still open to any more hints i can get
Brian

brentor boy
27-08-19, 08:20
Between 1860-70 there are 16 Denis Callaghan (and variations) marriages recorded, and one Denis O'Callaghan. None appear to be to a Mary/ Anne Sullivan. Before you think of buying certificates I think you need to try and discover more about this first marriage. Even an approximation of where and when, and a partial name of the bride, could help reduce the options.

brentor boy
27-08-19, 08:25
Just a thought. Have you traced him on any census? That might give his wife a name. If you no longer subscribe to a pay to view site , you can obtain free access to a workable version of a census from Family Search XXXX ( XXXX - year of census)

Sorry, I seem to have made a bit of a mess with my posting and edits, with some duplication.

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 08:54
on Ancestry there is a public tree that has included the marriage you mention, but date as 1872 (odd) not 67, they have included birth of son John Callaghan before marriage to Dennis. I have checked to see if they have put any documentation on to substantiate, and there is not. maybe you are in contact with them (or maybe it is you!) Duncan Leggett.

Bedwelty is quite a few miles (on foot) from St Woolas Newport where Mary Ann was from - did they travel together to Australia? did you know can check mother maiden name on GRO and only one john callaghan with wrong maiden name for Newport. there is a John Sullivan though no maiden name, so no father recorded.

Not sure if any of this helps

brentor boy
27-08-19, 09:05
If I have the correct entry, Denis is recorded as aged 18 in 1871. Even if that is only an approximation of his age, a marriage in 1867 seems unlikely. How have you identified him as your man?

When did he land in Australia?

2weis
27-08-19, 09:17
i have him landed in Australia 1877
on birth cert of children his birth date varies between 1850 and 1856
If his birth date is 1851 then marriage under extenuating circumstances is possible ??

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 10:34
not sure if you saw my post number 10?

brentor boy
27-08-19, 10:45
not sure if you saw my post number 10?

I didn't see until after I had posted mine .

I'm struggling to find the 1872 marriage on Free BMD.

Olde Crone Holden
27-08-19, 12:15
I am seeing the Bedwelty marriage in 1867 with the reference you gave. The two brides are Eliza McCarthy or Mary Callnan. Could Mary Callnan be Mary Sullivan? The outline of the surnames is the same and if the writing was poor, maybebthe transcriber saw Callnan instead of Sullivan.

OC

Janet in Yorkshire
27-08-19, 12:21
"Married in Bedwellty" - this could refer either to the place Bedwellty, OR to the registration district of Bedwellty, which is a much larger area. If you do not have a marriage cert specifying the venue of the marriage, then you should consider that it could have anywhere within the Bedwellty reg dist.
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/bedwelty.html

Have you tried looking on Freereg, or familysearch, including the wider area?

Jay

2weis
27-08-19, 13:01
cbcarolyn
no im not Duncan but i am in touch with him
i will take note of all the hints and suggestions and sort out what i can
while i have been looking for a while i am still very much a novice and until i learn how to research more i will struggle a little
any more hints will be greatly appreciated
Brian

Olde Crone Holden
27-08-19, 13:18
The marriage is there, see my post #15 above.

OC

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 13:57
I didn't see until after I had posted mine .

I'm struggling to find the 1872 marriage on Free BMD.
Sorry I probably didn't make it clear - he had no back up to an 1872 marriage, so his tree has errors, as he goes on to surmise that Eliza McCarthy is the wife and died before 1881 - not evidenced. So Duncan must be stuck too :)

I do find sometimes that other trees point me in the right direction even if they have not got there themselves!

Olde Crone Holden
27-08-19, 14:00
Am I invisible??!!

OC

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 14:04
Am I invisible??!!

OC
do you mean me? No I have noted that the 1872 is wrong, but it is on the tree I looked at, maybe I still didn't make it clear sorry.

Olde Crone Holden
27-08-19, 14:09
Carolyn, no, don't mean you, I mean my two posts saying the 1867 marriage is correct, he married Mary "Callnan", where Callnan is a mistranscription of Sullivan.

OC

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 14:20
Carolyn, no, don't mean you, I mean my two posts saying the 1867 marriage is correct, he married Mary "Callnan", where Callnan is a mistranscription of Sullivan.

OC
I think he has already ordered the certificate :) so guess he will find out.

Mystery solved one of the same :)

Olde Crone Holden
27-08-19, 14:27
Carolyn

Phew!

(And so relieved to know I am not invisible, lol)

OC

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 14:34
where did you see it?

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 14:37
Although first born does not have fathers name on record as far as I can see on GRO, which seems odd

NameJohn Callaghan
Registration Year1873
Registration QuarterJan-Feb-Mar
Registration districtNewport
Parishes for this Registration DistrictNewport
Inferred CountyMonmouthshire
Volume11aPage195

Olde Crone Holden
27-08-19, 14:41
If they had split up by 1873 then there would be no father's name on the cert, meaning no mother's msiden name either. Her name was legally Callaghan.

OC

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 16:30
doh sorry this is me getting in a muddle, that one has a maiden name and not what we want! maybe the tree I am looking at has wrong first born too :) Will await further info

But there is a John Sullivan with no maiden name which was what I looked at.

cbcarolyn
27-08-19, 16:32
Maybe a complete red herring!

SULLIVAN, JOHN -
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 11A Page 205

brentor boy
27-08-19, 17:35
I wonder if 2weis has a copy of the Australian marriage certificate and if it shows name of groom's father? It could prove useful to verify, or otherwise, the relevance of the 1867 marriage.

2weis
27-08-19, 23:30
olde crone
sorry in not replying to you earlier, i had to go out .
i appreciate you input and as i have ordered the marriage cert i will be able to compare any other data on it
Brian

2weis
28-08-19, 00:02
brentor boy
i have a marriage cert transcript for australian wedding
groom denis (signed dennis) callaghan age 22 (=born 1855) bride mary anne sullivan age 18 (=born 1859)date 29/01/1877 st laurence n adelaide
groons father denis callaghan brides father william sullivan

denis birth cert says born 01/07/1851 (father surname surname O'Callaghan)
his child joseph octavus callaghan (born 07/08/1895) says father denis born monmouthshire age 41(=born 1854) mother mary sullivan 39 (=born 1856)
these sort of discrepencies are what makes it confusing (particularily to a novice)
Brian

2weis
28-08-19, 00:07
cb carolyn
john sullivan seems to be first born and died 15 months later the only child born in Bedwelty
next child is mary annn born in 1878 in south australia
i may still order that cert just for reference
thanking you
Brian

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 00:16
once you have the marriage cert you will have to let us know.

Did they travel on the ship together to Aus?

wonder why he would have a different age (especially younger) for his marriage

Olde Crone Holden
28-08-19, 10:50
Oh dear, the Bedwellty marriage can't be correct if the Australian one is correct because the couple would have been extremely young, Mary at 8 far too young. And why would they marry twice? It could be that he married twice, both times to women of the same name, again possible but extremely unlikely.

Let us know what the certificate says!

OC

2weis
28-08-19, 11:38
olde crone
you are correct they would be very young Denis (born 1851) would be 16
i am not sure if mary was the first wife as she was born 1856 = 11 in 1867 marriage
i have a copy of south aust marriage to mary in 1877
i have just received a copy of first born child john born 1874 in bedwelty
it gives father as timothy (denis middle name) and mother as ellen callaghan (formely nall or wall)
ellen makes her mark x in the signature section of the birth cert
my records (not backed by certificates shows this child died at 15 months)
1874 sept qtr vol11a page 123
Brian

Olde Crone Holden
28-08-19, 12:15
I suspect the Bedwellty.marriage will turn out to be the father, not the son who went to Australia. Either that, or another Dennis entirely!

OC

Olde Crone Holden
28-08-19, 12:22
Oh, very odd! There is a marriage between PATRICK Callaghan and Ellen Wall in Bedwelty.

OC

2weis
28-08-19, 12:31
olde crone holden
is there any more information regard that marriage
brian

Olde Crone Holden
28-08-19, 13:11
No, it's just what I picked up from the GRO indexes, so no detail I'm afraid.

OC

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 13:41
I couldn't understand why they would marry twice, which is why I wondered if they travelled together on the ship or met afterwards. Although if the tree I looked at was correct they married only months after arriving?

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 13:55
is this what you have as a time line? apart from marriage 1872 is wrong
20217

That was the birth that I saw yesterday and could see mothers maiden name was not what we were looking for. Then saw the John Sullivan no fathers name, so wondered if this was in fact your John.

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 14:10
Did they travel together?

2weis
28-08-19, 14:32
cbcarolyn
unsure if they travelled together but i seem to recall mention they did, will need to prove
denis arrived in 1877 and they were married jan 1877
the john in your post 42 has a birth date 1873 newport the one i have has 1874 in dist of tredegar
i think until i get access to records and the copy im waiting for im chasing my tale
but i will appreciate any leads or ideas in the meantime
Brian

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 14:49
cbcarolyn
unsure if they travelled together but i seem to recall mention they did, will need to prove
denis arrived in 1877 and they were married jan 1877
the john in your post 42 has a birth date 1873 newport the one i have has 1874 in dist of tredegar
i think until i get access to records and the copy im waiting for im chasing my tale
but i will appreciate any leads or ideas in the meantime
Brian
I agree a couple of certificates will hopefully sort out red herrings.

I have looked at the children born in Duncans tree (if they are correct), and I don't like the sound of a 'John' as can see that they are using family names and first born would more than likely be a Dennis.

I don't have access to Australia records there are many on Ancestry, but would look to see if they were travelling together and with children (maybe John was travelling)

Do you know why John is included at all?

Olde Crone Holden
28-08-19, 15:21
John Callaghan born 1873, mmn Murley, which looks to correspond with a James CALLAHAN to Margaret Murley in 1864 Newport.

OC

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 16:01
ship he sailed on:
http://passengersinhistory.sa.gov.au/node/672469London
Depart Date
Wednesday, June 7, 1876
Destination
Port Adelaide
Arrive Date
Thursday, August 31, 1876

there is an M sullivan age 18 (miss)
, but also a J sullivan age 21

cbcarolyn
28-08-19, 16:16
actual list is here:
https://archives.sa.gov.au/sites/default/files/documentstore/passengerlists/1876/GRG35_48_1_76-25_Hydaspes.pdf

First name I think is Mary, but could be May?

2weis
29-08-19, 00:07
the John i have reference too died (1875) before they departed
i will look into the new references
thanking all once again
Brian

2weis
19-09-19, 07:43
the marriage cert proved to be unrelated
will look at all other ideas given
yhanks for the assistance Brian

cbcarolyn
19-09-19, 23:33
So it wasn't for any other family member either, that was a shame.

2weis
19-09-19, 23:54
carolyn
not as far as i can tell at this stage, but as im learning anything is possible and who knows what will eventuate.
Brian