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Holly
29-07-19, 10:24
Hello,

I've been trying to follow Richard Kean, Born Hulme, Manchester 1860.

I've had lots of wonderful help on here with finding him on the Censuses.

I've now found a Baptism for him at The Roman Catholic Church of St Wilfred's, Hulme, Manchester.

Many words are in Latin, - his name is given as 'Ricardus Kean'. The Parents are right, - Richard Kean and Frances Butler.

The Baptism was on the 22nd April, and the Notes say that his DOB was the 23rd February 1860.

I want to order a Birth Cert, - the problem is that I can't find a GRO ref for this Birth:-(

Any help welcomed!

Holly.

maesglasssclub
29-07-19, 11:07
Hi Holly, I cant find anything either, is this the marriage of his parents: Marriage Record for Richard Kean
in the District of Chorlton
Name Richard Kean
District Chorlton, Lancashire
Spouse Frances Butler
Page 0591
Volume 8C
Registered October - December 1855
Robert

Katarzyna
29-07-19, 11:57
Hi Holly,
It's likely that the birth wasn't registered. I remember looking for this before. Registration didn't become compulsory until 1875.

Janet
29-07-19, 12:03
May Catholics at this time were much more interested in having a child baptised rather than paying to have the birth registered by the state so yes there is a great possibilty the child was never registered. Are these people from Ireland?

Janet

Holly
29-07-19, 12:50
Many Thanks for the replies.

I just wanted to check that I wasn't missing something.

The Baptism and the notes give me both the DOB and the Baptismal dates, and I have the Parent's names and address. I just wanted to order a Birth Certificate for the sake of completeness!

Yes Janet, both the Butler's and the Keans came to Manchester from Ireland.

This explains why I have so much Irish DNA!

Holly.

Janet
29-07-19, 13:25
Many Thanks for the replies.

I just wanted to check that I wasn't missing something.

The Baptism and the notes give me both the DOB and the Baptismal dates, and I have the Parent's names and address. I just wanted to order a Birth Certificate for the sake of completeness!

Yes Janet, both the Butler's and the Keans came to Manchester from Ireland.

This explains why I have so much Irish DNA!

Holly.

I asked about possible Irish connection because there was so much backward and forward movement to Ireland that it might be possible that the birth occurred in Ireland as 23 February Birth to 22 April Baptism is quite a long time for a Catholic baptism as most Irish Catholics were baptised witghin a few days of birth so two months is a very long time. Unfortunately because it is 1860 if it will be an Irish Parish birth which means you are going to be looking at Irish Parish Records. These are online through Dublin NL though not digitised but can be available at FMP which are digitised so worth a look though not all Irish baps have been sent to repository and many still with churches across Ireland so it would help to know at least which county they are from. Kilkenny/Tipperary is Butler country with Butler being protestant. Is there a chance of one RC and one Cof Ireland hence the tardy baptism.

Although pre `1864 are Bap records they still record the birth as well and also parents names and sponsors.>

Janet

Holly
29-07-19, 13:51
These are the Baptismal Records:

Records from St. Wilfrid's Roman Catholic church Hulme (Name spellings of Kean/Keane/Kain & Cain).
All names are in Latin.

St Wilfrid's, Bedford Street, Hulme (closed in 1990).

Child: Maria Anna Cain
Baptised: 1st Jun 1856
Father: Ricardi Cain
Mother: Franciscae Butler
Godfather: Patricius Hanley
Godmother: Sarah Finherty
Notes: Born 15th May 1856

Child: Thomas Cain.
Baptised: 27th May 1858
Father: Richardi Cain.
Mother: Franciscae Buckley of: 11 Lime street.
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Anna Conroy
Notes: Born 13th May 1858.

Child: Ricardus Kean
Baptised: 22nd Apr 1860
Father: Ricardi Kean.
Mother: Francescae Butler of: 76 Queen street, Hulme.
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Sarah Finnerty.
Notes: Born 23rd Feb. 1860.

I suspect that they thought that the Baptisms were 'enough', - and didn't also Register the Births.

And so were I to try and order a Birth Cert from the GRO, - I suspect that none would be found.

Holly.

Janet
29-07-19, 14:03
That is probably correct Holly though what I was trying to say previously was that the birth may have taken place in Ireland and possibly baptised in a Churh of Ireland Church and then baptised again in Manchester in a catholic Chuech. This could happen if one party was C of I or E and the other one RC. The Dublin NA is the place to look for Protestant births.

Janet

Holly
29-07-19, 14:59
Yes Janet, - I think that the Butlers were Protestants. (From Antrim if I'm remembering correctly).

Thanks, Holly.

Janet H.
29-07-19, 18:59
for reference for searchers.

Sarah Kean mmn Butler born 1862 Hulme reference HUL/103/21
Frances Kean mmn Butler born 1863 Hulme " HUL/114/73
John Kean mmn Butler born 1865 Hulme HUL/126/60

on Lancashire BMD

Janet H.
29-07-19, 19:29
18 Oct 1855 St Wilfrids.


Ricardum KEAN of 23 Chester Rd son of Thoma KEAN of 2 Chester Rd
Franciseum BUTLER of 8 Lime St dau of Patricii BUTLER of 8 Lime St
Witnesses Jacobo BARRETT of Bradshaw St and Elizabetha BARRETT of Bradshaw St

Holly
29-07-19, 19:43
Many Thanks Janet H, - much appreciated.

Holly.

kylejustin
29-07-19, 23:33
I was going to say check the local lancashire bmd indexes, as it is known that a lot of lancashire events never made it to the gro indexes.

GallowayLass
30-07-19, 01:43
This is weird. Found some ancestry private tree matches. Look at the top one...

20186

Holly
30-07-19, 07:32
Nothing weird about it GallowayLass, - the top one is mine, the other one is my sister's.

I've been testing out a theory that Richard Kean, Born Manchester 1860, and William James Wilson, Born Manchester 1860, both House Painters, - were one and the same person.

I put him on my Tree to see what would happen to my ThruLines... And suddenly, many of my DNA Matches all pop up, and fit in:-)

It seems to work better than struggling with the WATO Tool does.

Holly.

GallowayLass
30-07-19, 10:25
Nothing weird about it GallowayLass, - the top one is mine, the other one is my sister's.

I've been testing out a theory that Richard Kean, Born Manchester 1860, and William James Wilson, Born Manchester 1860, both House Painters, - were one and the same person.

I put him on my Tree to see what would happen to my ThruLines... And suddenly, many of my DNA Matches all pop up, and fit in:-)

It seems to work better than struggling with the WATO Tool does.

Holly.

Aha! LOL

Katarzyna
30-07-19, 11:04
This was Holly's previous thread on the same subject:

https://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/121147-Where-can-I-find-a-Service-Record-for-The-Royal-Engineers-1891?highlight=richard+kean

See post #40

Holly
30-07-19, 11:24
Many thanks for adding them together Kat.

Holly.

Katarzyna
30-07-19, 15:09
In your other thread you say you have Kean DNA matches to a father, nephew and grandson in Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. Do you have a tree for them on Ancestry or elsewhere?

Holly
30-07-19, 15:13
Yes Kat,

It's a Public Tree, managed by Verne Kean. (I think that some of it is incorrect though).

Holly.

Holly
01-08-19, 10:44
I've now had a reply from the Manchester Registration Service to say that they are unable to find a Birth Registration for Richard Kean, Born Hulme, 1860.

They're refunding me and advise me to keep checking the Lancs BMD Site, as the Manchester Family History Society are adding Mother's Maiden Names to the pre 1911 Birth Entries.

Holly.

Holly
01-08-19, 11:07
It does seem very curious that the Birth Records for the 3 eldest children don't seem to be on the Lancs Site, - whereas all of the younger children, (after Frances) are?

I wonder if they were Registered in a different Sub District?


Records from St. Wilfrid's Roman Catholic church Hulme (Name spellings of Kean/Keane/Kain & Cain).
All names are in Latin.

St Wilfrid,Bedford Street, Hulme (closed in 1990 ).? Link

Child: Maria Anna Cain
Baptised: 1st Jun 1856
Father: Ricardi Cain
Mother: Franciscae Butler
Godfather: Patricius Hanley
Godmother: Sarah Finherty
Notes: Born 15th May 1856

Child: Thomas Cain.
Baptised: 27th May 1858
Father: Richardi Cain.
Mother: Franciscae Buckley of: 11 Lime street.
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Anna Conroy
Notes: Born 13th May 1858.

Child: Ricardus Kean
Baptised: 22nd Apr 1860
Father: Ricardi Kean.
Mother: Francescae Butler of: 76 Queen street, Hulme.
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Sarah Finnerty.
Notes: Born 23rd Feb. 1860

Child: Sarah Joanna Cain
Baptised: 8th June 1862
Father: Richardi Cain
Mother: Franciscae Butler of: 163 Chester Road
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Joanna Butler
Notes: Born 14th Jan 1862

Child: Francis Elizabeth Kain.
Baptised: 21st Aug 1864
Father: Ricardi Kain
Mother: Fransescae Butler of: 132 Chester Rd
Godfather: Jacobus Barrett
Godmother: Elizabeth Barrett
Notes: Born 9th Dec 1863
Child: Johannes Cain.
Baptised: 4th Feb 1866
Father: Richardi Cain
Child: Gulielmus Keane
Baptised: 1st March 1868.
Father: Ricardi Keane.
Mother: Francescae Butler of: 337 City Rd.
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Maria Anna Perringer?
Notes: Born 19th Dec. 1867

Child: Edwinus Kean.
Baptised: 10th Apr 1870
Father: Richardi Kean.
Mother: Francescae Butler of: 72 Dawson St?
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Maria Anna Kean.
Notes: Born Jan 15th 1870

Child: Joanna Keane
Baptised: 3rd Sep 1871
Father: Richardi Keane.
Mother: Francescae Butler of: 35 Hardman street.
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Maria Anna Keane
Notes: Born 24 Aug 1871

Child: Jacobus Cain
Baptised: 18th May 1873
Father: Richardi Cain
Mother: Francescae Butler
Godfather: Not named
Godmother: Sarah Corcoran
Notes: Born 18th May 1873.



Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1863
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
KEAN Frances BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/114/73

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1865
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
KEAN John BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/126/60

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1870
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
KEAN Edwin BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/151/69

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1873
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
KEAN James BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/173/54

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
01-08-19, 13:55
Many of my Manchester relatives were not registered at birth but they were baptised. Before 1865 (?) it was the responsibility of the registrar, not the parents, to seek out births and register them. There was some resistance from the church, who saw civil registration as an encroachment on their traditions (and their income, haha) and I get the feeling they suggested that as long as the child was baptised, civil registration didn't matter. The law was tightened up and changed to put responsibility for registration onto the parents.

The other possibility is that many Manchester registrations simply never made it to the GRO for whatever reason. I have proof of this in my own family research. When I queried this with the GRO some years ago, they said it was impossible.

OC

Holly
01-08-19, 14:18
Thanks for your imput OC.

It's just very frustrating, when I've tried so hard to find him!

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
01-08-19, 16:44
Yes, it is infuriating! I have a mystery man born in 1854 in Hulme, or so he says on all census, but he definitely wasn't registered there, nor baptised.

OC

Holly
01-08-19, 17:01
I was just reading again what the Manchester Registration Service had to say about why a Birth might not have been Registered:

'It is possible that the birth has not been registered. From 1837 - 1875 the registrar had the responsibility to collect registrations, after 1875 you had to go to the register office as you do today, so there are missing births. It is possible that there could also be a mistake in the transcription or that he was registered with a different first name and they used his Baptism name. The Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society are in the process of checking and adding mothers maiden name to the lancashirebmd website, so keep checking it'.

And so basically, - they are saying that there are many missing Births!

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
01-08-19, 19:02
Have you discounted Mary Ann Cane, Deansgate 1856? I know that's not who you are looking for!

OC

Holly
01-08-19, 20:05
Thanks for looking OC.

If I'm looking at the same Mary Ann Cane, her father was Dominic Cane. (On her Marriage Cert).

I know that Mary Ann Kean married William Henry Gregory.

Holly.

Janet H.
01-08-19, 20:39
I had one where the father was born in Ireland and the children on census are born Manchester. I ended up finding they were born in Liverpool !

cbcarolyn
01-08-19, 20:48
the gap between birth and baptism is very close on the first 2 and then it gets longer, no idea what that means, they move every time as well!

Holly
01-08-19, 21:45
If the dates on the last Baptism are correct, Jacob was Born and baptized on the same day!

Surely that's not possible?

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
01-08-19, 22:35
Quite possible if he was not expected to live. I don't know what happens in the RC faith but would think it similsr to the C of E in that anyone who has themself been baptised can baptise someone else usually a baby in extremis. In the C of E they often record this as private baptism, but it is followed by a service of receiving into the church, if they survive.

OC

Karamazov
01-08-19, 23:48
If the dates on the last Baptism are correct, Jacob was Born and baptized on the same day!

Surely that's not possible?

Holly.

Certainly is - happened often with my 19th century RC Irish ancestors. If not on the actual day of birth, usually the next day. And not the "informal" baptisms mentioned by OC - all done by the parish priest. They're all recorded in the parish register so it seems the newborn was taken to church for the ceremony rather than it being a home baptism.

Christine

cbcarolyn
02-08-19, 09:46
i see that the mother died in 1873 also, so maybe in childbirth.

have you managed to track the tree to the Canadian connection?

Janet in Yorkshire
02-08-19, 09:51
RC priests would go to the house if needed - don't forget that if the mother was thought possibly not to survive the birth experience, he may have attended to administer last rites, if needed . Similarly a sickly child may have been baptised and then given the last rites at the same time.

Jay

Holly
02-08-19, 10:18
No, I'm still working on it Carolyn!

Holly

Holly
02-08-19, 10:20
Many thanks all, - for the Baptism replies.

Poor woman:-( She Died at 39yrs.

Holly.