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Holly
15-07-19, 10:34
Hello,

I have Richard Kean, age 28yrs, Born Manchester, (1860/'63) on the 1891 Census for Kent:


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/17094937?h=8cf52c&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

There is an Entry on Ancestry on the WW1 Medal Rolls for a Richard Kean, - but this man would have been in his mid 50's by then, - and so probably not him?

There is another Army Record for a Richard Kean on Ancestry, which shows him enlisting for The Manchester Regiment. I've downloaded the Attestation papers, and it is for the right man, as it names his Father, also Richard Kean, of 6 Harper Street, Hulme, Manchester.

Could anyone on here please tell me if it's possible to access the Service Record for the Richard Kean shown on the 1891 Census?

I can then ascertain if I'm following the same man.

Cheers, Holly.

Gwyn in Kent
15-07-19, 12:04
Richard in Shorncliffe Camp in 1891 appears to be a
widower.
Does that fit with 'your' Richard ?

Holly
15-07-19, 12:13
Thanks for your reply Gwyn.

I hadn't noticed the Widower part, - is that on the 1891 Census?

I have found him on the 1881 Census, working as a 'House Painter' in Manchester, and Married to Margaret, - but I couldn't find a Marriage for them.

Holly.

PhotoFamily
15-07-19, 15:32
My RE ancestor was serving about the time that yours was born.

Attestation papers/Chelsea Pensioners papers are on (and indexed on) FindMyPast. But, if like my ancestor, yours did not serve until pension (21 years, I believe), then his attestation papers were probably not preserved.

I was successful hiring a researcher to find his payroll entries at Kew. As I recall, REs are especially difficult because they didn't stay with one regiment.

PhotoFamily
15-07-19, 15:36
Married to Margaret, - but I couldn't find a Marriage for them.

May be an indication that they married while posted outside of Britain. I was fortunate in that mine was in Ireland at the time, and I have an Irish Civil Reg record for it. Can't find the parish record for it, nor the baptism of their first son about 10 months later.

Holly
15-07-19, 15:44
Many Thanks for that PhotoFamily, - much appreciated.

It is puzzling, - because I can't find a Death for Margaret Kean either, but if they were out of the country, - perhaps that would explain it.

I had found the Payroll and Muster Books on The National Archives Site, but they seem quite tricky to Search...

I will have to give it some more thought.

Katarzyna
15-07-19, 15:49
Marriages Sep 1880 (>99%)


Draffin
William Henry

Chorlton
8c
1064
Draffin and Fox found on 1881


Fox
Sarah Emma

Chorlton
8c
1064



KEAN
Richard

Chorlton
8c
1064
>>>>>> No Partner so probably to a Margaret. Haven't time to look at present.


Moore
Olivia

Chorlton
8c
1064
Moore and Redfern found on 1881


REDFERN
George

Chorlton
8c
1064

Holly
15-07-19, 16:00
thanks Kat.

I had found that one, but it didn't seem to have a Margaret on it.

Katarzyna
15-07-19, 16:04
Had a quick look but mistranscribed. Image clearly shows 1062 not 1064 and that Richard Kean married a Mary Lawler or a Mary Ann Young :(


Edit:"I had found that one, but it didn't seem to have a Margaret on it."
It wouldn't as there are only 5 persons on there not 6 as should be. That's why I looked for the missing partner.

Holly
15-07-19, 16:18
Ahhh, - thanks for pointing that out Kat.

I will look at it again.

cbcarolyn
15-07-19, 17:02
maybe it is one of those, and Margaret is wrong on census in 1881, is there another Richard Kean in the area?

Holly
15-07-19, 17:27
Richard Kean's Father was also Richard Kean, Carolyn.

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
15-07-19, 17:47
Richsrd Kean married Mary A Young, according to Lancsbmd.

OC

Holly
15-07-19, 18:11
Richsrd Kean married Mary A Young, according to Lancsbmd.
OC

Many Thanks OC.

It won't be the first time that there's an incorrect name on the Census!

cbcarolyn
15-07-19, 20:23
Richard Kean's Father was also Richard Kean, Carolyn.

Holly.I have him with a Frances Butler and a Martha Painter, so can't be him with Mary as well.

Holly
15-07-19, 20:37
I have him with a Frances Butler and a Martha Painter, so can't be him with Mary as well.

That is Richard Kean (Senior) Father of the Richard Kean, Born Manchester 1860 that I'm looking at Carolyn.

Frances Butler was his first Wife, Mother of Richard Kean the younger. Sadly, she died at 39yrs. Martha was his second Wife.

Holly.

vera2013
15-07-19, 20:44
Holly just wondering how you know that the father of your Richard is also a Richard? Apart from Army Record
I looked at Ancestry, FMP and a couple of military sites.
Couldnt find s Sapper Richard Kean b 1863 Manchester RE

Vera

cbcarolyn
15-07-19, 20:49
yes that is what I have, so the Richard Kean marriage in 1880, could be your Richard Kean the younger and Margaret is Mary? I can't immediately see any other Richards in the area, one born 1868 so a bit young for 1880 marriage. I also can't find a Richard and Mary on the 1881 census, but they could be anywhere in the country possibly.

cbcarolyn
15-07-19, 20:52
there is a death in 1891

Name: Mary Ann Kean
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Registration Year: 1891
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 29
Registration district: Chorlton

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8914/ONS_D18912AZ-0218/19344922?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115951575/facts/citation/742162161497/edit/record

Holly
15-07-19, 21:25
Well, - that would make him a Widower on the 1891 Census, wouldn't it? Thanks Carolyn!

I think the Richard Kean, Born Manchester 1860/'63 who joined the Manchester Regiment in 1886 and the Richard Kean who's a Sapper in The Royal Engineers on the1891 census, must be the same man.

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
15-07-19, 22:04
FWIW - I have lost count of the times that "Mary" has been read as "Marg" and corrected by some over enthusiastic clerk to "Margaret".

OC

cbcarolyn
15-07-19, 22:12
Well it is all looking very logical, not sure if you can ever prove it all, but a marriage cert and death cert may help?

can't find them in 1881 though.

Holly
16-07-19, 09:31
They're Lodging with Mary Gallagher at:

7 Gardner St, Manchester on the 1881 Census:
Ref:RG11 Piece 3931 Folio 19 Page 32.

Now all I need to do is to try and find him on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses!

Holly.

Chrissie Smiff
16-07-19, 09:56
Which was the last certificate you have that took you back to Richard Kean jnr Holly?

Holly
16-07-19, 10:11
The Marriage between Richard Kean (Senior) and Frances Butler, - Parents of the Richard Kean that I'm trying to follow.

Holly.

Chrissie Smiff
16-07-19, 10:30
Thank you:)

cbcarolyn
16-07-19, 10:52
They're Lodging with Mary Gallagher at:

7 Gardner St, Manchester on the 1881 Census:
Ref:RG11 Piece 3931 Folio 19 Page 32.

Now all I need to do is to try and find him on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses!

Holly.doh - yes I knew that...no idea what I was thinking

Katarzyna
16-07-19, 11:47
For those who haven't/can't see it:
From his service Record
Address 6 Harper St Manchester a painter.
No 2014 - 3rd Battalion Manchester Regiment. Militia.
Ashton under Lyne was the County Depot
He signed up for 6 years (actually 7y 4 m) from 17 Nov 1886. age 22y 10m

He was unmarried according to his father Richard of 6 Harper St who vouched and signed for the recruit!!!!!
Do you think he was lying?

Holly
16-07-19, 12:01
I suppose if you're Widowed, then technically speaking you're Unmarried?

Holly.

vera2013
16-07-19, 12:36
For those who haven't/can't see it:
From his service Record
Address 6 Harper St Manchester a painter.
No 2014 - 3rd Battalion Manchester Regiment. Militia.
Ashton under Lyne was the County Depot
He signed up for 6 years (actually 7y 4 m) from 17 Nov 1886. age 22y 10m

He was unmarried according to his father Richard of 6 Harper St who vouched and signed for the recruit!!!!!
Do you think he was lying?

I think the 7 years 4months was how long Richard had resided at 6 Harper Street??

Cant see a death for Mary Ann or Mgt between 1880 and 1886.

Vera

cbcarolyn
16-07-19, 16:53
I think the 7 years 4months was how long Richard had resided at 6 Harper Street??

Cant see a death for Mary Ann or Mgt between 1880 and 1886.

Vera

If he had been there that long then he would be a different one to the lodger in 1881 - or that is a fib too!

Holly
16-07-19, 17:13
I've tried comparing the Signature of his Attestation Form, to my Grandfather's Signature on the 1911 Census.

They look very similar to me!

Holly.20164

Holly
16-07-19, 17:16
20165

Holly
16-07-19, 17:17
I've copied the part of the 1911 Census where he lists his son's names, - the 'Richard Wilson' looks very similar to the 'Richard Kean' Signature to me?

Holly.

Olde Crone Holden
16-07-19, 18:16
How weird! I posted a death earlier today, it has vanished!

Mary Ann Kean aged 29 in 1891, Hulme district.

OC

cbcarolyn
16-07-19, 18:38
I've copied the part of the 1911 Census where he lists his son's names, - the 'Richard Wilson' looks very similar to the 'Richard Kean' Signature to me?

Holly.
it certainly does, but would say a lot of handwriting is similar, wonder if there is a way you can get it analysed, maybe a piece of software that does that sort of thing?

cbcarolyn
16-07-19, 18:41
If he had been there that long then he would be a different one to the lodger in 1881 - or that is a fib too!

actually we know it to be a fib, as he is not with the family in 1881
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LANRG11_3883_3887-0827/10197676?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts/citation/742161530476/edit/record

Holly
16-07-19, 18:51
This might make it easier to see:20166

Holly.

Katarzyna
16-07-19, 19:21
Who is William James Wilson? Did he sign the 1911 census? If so then the William from that census would have written out all the family names himself. I cannot see why you are comparing Richard Wilson b 1904 with a Richard Kean.

Holly
16-07-19, 19:46
William James Wilson (1860 - 1937) was my late Grandfather. I've never been able to find him anywhere before his Marriage to my Grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea in 1893. I've been looking for him for the last 40 years.He says on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses that he was Born in Manchester.

Richard Kean was Born in Manchester in 1860. I have DNA matches to many of his descendants. After he signed up for The Manchester Regiment in 1886, he is nowhere to be seen until (possibly) the 1891 Census. There is a Sapper in The Royal Engineers who could be him. He then disappears. He doesn't appear on the 1901 or 1911 Censuses.

I think it possible that Richard Kean/William James Wilson were one and the same person. That's why I'm comparing their writing of the name 'Richard'. Richard Wilson on the 1911 Census was my late Uncle.

Holly.

Katarzyna
17-07-19, 01:57
I've tried comparing the Signature of his Attestation Form, to my Grandfather's Signature on the 1911 Census.

They look very similar to me!

Holly.20164

This is the signature of Richard's father who was vouching for his son so you cannot compare.

Chrissie Smiff
17-07-19, 08:52
So on the marriage to your grandmother Margaret Rees what does William James Wilson give for the name and occupation of his father?

Holly
17-07-19, 10:15
On his Marriage Cert, in June 1893, my Grandfather gives his Father as:

'William Wilson (Deceased) Occupation Mason'.

The problem is that I've never been able to find them together. I've never found a definate for William James Wilson's Father, - the names are too common and there is too little to go on.

There's no problem with finding my Grandfather after his Marriage, - he just doesn't seem to exist before then!

Holly.

Holly
17-07-19, 10:16
This is the signature of Richard's father who was vouching for his son so you cannot compare.

I find it difficult to believe that a man didn't have to sign for himself as well?

Holly.

Katarzyna
17-07-19, 11:17
The first page shows Richard junior never signed his attestation - I have never seen that before - really odd.

Katarzyna
17-07-19, 11:28
Name:
William James Wilson


Event Type:
Military Service


Event Year:
1914


Residence Place:
Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales


Age:
44


Military Company/Regiment:
South Wales Borderers


Military Regiment:
14215


Military Battalion:
3rd Battalion


Birth Year (Estimated):
1870


Birthplace:
Milton, Cumberland, England



source Family search

Katarzyna
17-07-19, 11:36
Humm! not him this is the one on Ancestry:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1114&h=868638&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=OQK124&_phstart=successSource

Married Mary Shill.
Thought I had him there - living and marriage in Swansea !!!

Katarzyna
17-07-19, 11:57
20165
Where was this 1911 census? Do you have the ref or URL for it? I cannot seem to find it :(

Holly
17-07-19, 12:07
This is Richard Kean's (the younger) Signature on the Attestation Papers.

You are correct Kat, - the Signature that I had Posted was his Father's.

Holly.20169

Holly
17-07-19, 12:10
Now, - to return to William James Wilson.

This is him on the 1911 Census:

20170

Holly
17-07-19, 12:19
To summarise...

William James Wilson says he was Born in Manchester in 1860.

Richard Kean was Born in Manchester in 1860/'63.

William James Wilson cannot be found anywhere before he Married Margaret Rees in Swansea in 1893.

Richard Kean is in Manchester, employed as a 'House Painter' on the 1881 Census.

Richard Kean is on the 1891 Census for Kent, as a Sapper in The Royal Engineers.

Richard Kean is nowhere to be found after that.

William James Wilson pops up as a House Painter in Swansea in 1893.

There is another William James Wilson, (Born 1865, Kent) on the 1891 Census for Swansea.

That William James Wilson Married Mary Shill and they have a child called 'William Havelock Wilson'. That child Dies in Infancy.

William James Wilson and Margaret Rees, (my Grandparents) Marry, and have a child called 'William Havelock Wilson (1894 - 1974).

My thought is that Richard Kean went AWOL, (or deserted) from the Royal Engineers. He knew the 'other' William James Wilson from Kent, and also went to Swansea...

Finally, - I have never been able to find my Grandfather before his Marriage, BUT, - I have DNA Matches to Richard Kean's wider family!!

Holly.

Katarzyna
17-07-19, 12:53
Now, - to return to William James Wilson.

This is him on the 1911 Census:

20170
Even enlarged it's still too small to read.

Holly
17-07-19, 13:06
What is the size limit on Attachments on here?

It wouldn't let me attach a full size copy.

William James Wilson is at 99 St Helens Road, Swansea on the 1911, I'll see if I can find the Refs.

Holly
17-07-19, 13:15
The Reference to the 1911 Census is:

RG14 Piece: 32759 Schedule No: 10

Holly

vera2013
17-07-19, 16:23
This is Richard Kean's (the younger) Signature on the Attestation Papers.

You are correct Kat, - the Signature that I had Posted was his Father's.

Holly.20169

Not sure that is Richard Kean's signature Holly. Think his name was entered by another. Strange no signature in relevant space and why did Dad Richard have to vouch for him.

Vera

Holly
17-07-19, 16:46
I don't know Vera:-(

I haven't seen many British Army Attestation Papers, - most of my ancestors were in The Royal Navy.

Holly.

cbcarolyn
17-07-19, 17:21
for those that have ancestry here are the links to the census that I have found - I think they are right, thought it might help
Richard Kean the elder
1841
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/LANHO107_582_583-0257/6254566?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts
1861
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/LANRG9_2896_2897-0380/14245755?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts
1871
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_3999_4000-0151/5104643?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts
1881
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LANRG11_3883_3887-0827/10197676?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts
1891
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LANRG12_3197_3199-0502/22027442?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts/citation/742162491279/edit/record

richard the younger
1881
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LANRG11_3931_3934-0039/10425068?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115397343/facts
1891
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/KENRG12_751_753-0171/25620520?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115397343/facts

1901
William wilson
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7815/GLARG13_5073_5074-0351/32513857?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222114851492/facts

1911
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2353/rg14_32759_0019_06/2300385?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222114851492/facts

There does seem to be a Richard Kean in Salford and did notice one of his children was born in Hulme - he does seem to be the wrong age too

cbcarolyn
17-07-19, 17:23
Not sure that is Richard Kean's signature Holly. Think his name was entered by another. Strange no signature in relevant space and why did Dad Richard have to vouch for him.

VeraI thought that it odd that his Dad had to vouch for him at that age, but as never seen this sort of thing before thought it was usual.

Holly
17-07-19, 17:55
Thanks for Posting all of those Links Carolyn, - much appreciated.

This is a PDF File of my Grandfather's Invention, 'The Wilson Air Purifier'; which made me wonder if he'd spent time in The Royal Engineers.

Holly.

cbcarolyn
18-07-19, 20:25
very interesting, doesn't appear to be something the average painter would do

Holly
18-07-19, 21:35
Yes, - that's what I thought.

I have wondered if some of it was down to time spent in The Royal Engineers?

It's very frustrating that it seems impossible to find a Service Record.

Holly:-(

vera2013
18-07-19, 22:09
I will look again at Army records. Have Fold3 and Forces War records. Doubt he changed Regts before 1893 marriage given his abilities. Maybe went AWOL or discharged. Or possibly plans to post him abroad (just thinking aloud) Annoyingly there are Service records for the others on 1891 census.

I note that on all census Richard Snr is Cordwainer/Shoe and Boot maker except 1881 when he is a Commercial Clerk. Also on 1881 there was a Visitor George Mackay a Soldier b in Bombay. Father Francis also a Soldier. On FMP in India. Cant see what the connection is to the Keen's May be friend of the Painter's.

Vera

Holly
18-07-19, 22:22
Many thanks Vera.

I've emailed The Royal Engineers Museum in Kent, to try to find out which Unit was at Shorncliffe Camp in 1891.

There are 6 pages for Shorncliffe Camp on the 1891, and the front page lists the Officer in charge, who was Lieutenant Colonel Allan J. C. McAllister, I think? He seems to have been a Mathematician.

Holly.

Holly
19-07-19, 09:33
Just checked my notes, - and in fact the Commanding Officer was Lieutenant Colonel Allan Cunningham, (not McAllister, as given above).

Holly.

Gwyn in Kent
20-07-19, 14:34
If your research leads back to Shorncliffe area, I can possibly help with look-ups in the Folkestone area.

I'm frequently in the Shorncliffe Camp area, much of which is at present being redeveloped for housing.

Holly
20-07-19, 14:51
Many Thanks Gwyn, - your kind offer is much appreciated.

I'm surprised that there seems to be so little online about the Shorncliffe Camp. Wikipedia seems to focus mainly on it's early development.

I'm trying to find out which Unit of The Royal Engineers was based at the Camp during the 1891 Census, but can't find anything that might help:-(

Holly.

vera2013
20-07-19, 16:48
Holly the Lt Col Cunningham in 1891 census was wth the Royal (Bengal) Engineers. He was retired by the time of the 1901 census

EDIT just read FIBIS. After the mutiny all were incorporated into British Army ie Corps of Royal Engineers.
Think RE's were not stand alone but joined a Rgt as and when/where needed.
There is a military forum which maybe able to help?

Wonder if that Death Cert for Mary Ann Kean 1891 Hulme would hold any clues. Thats if it is the right wife

Vera

PhotoFamily
20-07-19, 16:51
Just checked my notes, - and in fact the Commanding Officer was Lieutenant Colonel Allan Cunningham, (not McAllister, as given above).

For my RE ancestor, I was able to name one of his Commanding Officers (on my great-grandmother's birth cert) and then find his service record. I can confirm that he served in the same place at the same time as my g'g'grandfather.

However. REs did not stay with one regiment thru out their engagement! They were reassigned to units as their skills were needed. So finding his CO's record was not useful.

This is an excerpt of RE Recruit requirements that I found when I was researching:
ENGINEER RECRUIT TRAINING

The following is quoted from Grierson (1899):*

"With the exception of drivers, every recruit enlisted for the "Royal Engineers" must know some trade. The drivers are trained at the depot of the field-engineers at Aldershot, the sappers at the Chatham depot, where the latter are trained for a year in infantry drill and pioneer duties..."

Ann Swabey, ftf member, is a research at Kew, and may be able to shed light on records and RE personnel practices.
PM also sent

Ah, and Col. De Santis website also has terms of engagement, and seem to pertain to about the period of your man's engagement:
http://www.reubique.com/ENLIST.htm

vera2013
20-07-19, 16:59
Typing whilst you posted Photofamily. That is interesting

Vera

PhotoFamily
20-07-19, 17:03
That website's home page isn't working for me. Here's one of his write ups about a Sapper who served about the same time as my ancestor:
http://www.reubique.com/3620.htm

and his own bio:
https://www.reubique.com/091381.htm

PhotoFamily
20-07-19, 17:10
I think I also connected with knowledgeable people at this website:
http://www.victorianwars.com

(and it was someone here who suggested I go there!)

PhotoFamily
20-07-19, 17:21
For my RE ancestor, I was able to name one of his Commanding Officers (on my great-grandmother's birth cert) and then find his service record. I can confirm that he served in the same place at the same time as my g'g'grandfather.

That is - my g'g'grandfather was indeed serving in the same location as the CO on my g'grandmother's birth cert. But that was the only point in time that they served together.

Holly
20-07-19, 17:21
Gosh!

Thanks so much Vera and PhotoFamily!

What a wonderful amount of new information to read through and digest :-)

One further thought, - my relative started his own business in Swansea in 1895 with the sum of £36. Might this be the sort of gratuity that a Sapper might obtain on leaving the Service?

Holly.

vera2013
20-07-19, 17:30
Gosh!

Thanks so much Vera and PhotoFamily!

What a wonderful amount of new information to read through and digest :-)

One further thought, - my relative started his own business in Swansea in 1895 with the sum of £36. Might this be the sort of gratuity that a Sapper might obtain on leaving the Service?

Holly.

£35 in 1891 equivalent to £4400 approx 2019.

Vera

PhotoFamily
20-07-19, 17:42
with the sum of £36. Might this be the sort of gratuity that a Sapper might obtain on leaving the Service?
Holly.

Not sure. But that seems like a big sum for the time period, and I don't think he could have served that long. Ann Swabey or the Victorian War website might be able to give you a better answer.

The only reason I know where and when my ancestor served was thru payroll records. WO research at Kew.

Holly
20-07-19, 18:44
Many Thanks both.

PhotoFamily, I've been searching Discovery on The National Archives Site, and I think I've narrowed my Search down to WO 73/42 and 73/43.

Only searchable at Kew as you say, and so I shall have to visit if I want to search them.

Holly.

vera2013
20-07-19, 19:09
Looking from a different angle and possible reason for a name change.

1880 A Mary Ann Young m Richard Kean
1882 Mary Agnes Kean b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1884 Joseph b Chorlton reg mmn Young d 1884
1885 Catherine b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1891 Mary Ann Kean d aged 29 b 1862
1891 09/01/1891 admission to Manchester Workhouse, R/C Mary ?Ann and Catherine, R/C, Chorlton, Grandfather informant (no name given)
1891 census Mary A and Catherine (ages transposed) at Holly Mount Poor Law School, Tottington Lower End, Bury.

Will try to find a record to link them to Richard Kean

Vera

cbcarolyn
20-07-19, 19:26
Looking from a different angle and possible reason for a name change.

1880 A Mary Ann Young m Richard Kean
1882 Mary Agnes Kean b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1884 Joseph b Chorlton reg mmn Young d 1884
1885 Catherine b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1891 Mary Ann Kean d aged 29 b 1862
1891 09/01/1891 admission to Manchester Workhouse, R/C Mary ?Ann and Catherine, R/C, Chorlton, Grandfather informant (no name given)
1891 census Mary A and Catherine (ages transposed) at Holly Mount Poor Law School, Tottington Lower End, Bury.

Will try to find a record to link them to Richard Kean

Vera

looks like great detective work, wonder where they went, definitely looks promising

Holly
20-07-19, 20:00
I have fairly high DNA Matches to a Kean family in Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. I match to the Father, Nephew and Grandson.

The only link that I have managed to work out is that Thomas Kean, Born Manchester 1860 married Mary Ann Elizabeth KAY.

Also, Mary Ann Elizabeth Kay's sister, Sarah Hannah Kay, married John Kean, Born Manchester 1866.

Mary Ann and Sarah Hannah Kay's Parents were Samuel James KAY and Sarah KAY.

At some stage, Thomas and Mary Ann Kean must have emigrated to Canada. I haven't found out when...

Holly.

Holly
20-07-19, 20:01
Plus, I haven't worked out how Richard Kean is related to Thomas and John Kean as yet!

Holly.

cbcarolyn
20-07-19, 22:02
I have fairly high DNA Matches to a Kean family in Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. I match to the Father, Nephew and Grandson.

The only link that I have managed to work out is that Thomas Kean, Born Manchester 1860 married Mary Ann Elizabeth KAY.

Also, Mary Ann Elizabeth Kay's sister, Sarah Hannah Kay, married John Kean, Born Manchester 1866.

Mary Ann and Sarah Hannah Kay's Parents were Samuel James KAY and Sarah KAY.

At some stage, Thomas and Mary Ann Kean must have emigrated to Canada. I haven't found out when...

Holly.
Thomas Kean is Richards Brother, and also there is a John

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_3999_4000-0151/5104647?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115397343/facts/citation/742161507134/edit/record

Holly
20-07-19, 22:26
Mis transcribed as KEYE!

Thanks Carolyn :-)

Holly.

cbcarolyn
20-07-19, 22:59
can't see him going to Canada
here in 1911
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_23590_0235_03/23504177?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398090/facts

couple of Thomas deaths that could fit, in Hulme.

could it be one of his 12 children that went?

cbcarolyn
20-07-19, 23:40
This could be his death:
Name: Thomas Kean
Death Age: 86
Birth Date: abt 1858
Registration Date: Jul 1944
[Aug 1944]
[Sep 1944]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 300

PhotoFamily
21-07-19, 01:39
I have fairly high DNA Matches to... the Father, Nephew and Grandson....

Holly.

Have you migrated your results as much as you can? Gedmatch, familytreeDNA, MyHeritage and LivingDNA will all accept uploads from other test sites. Charges vary. Fish in as many ponds as you can!

And - you need at least the father, and preferably also the nephew, to also migrate their results, especially if they have only tested at Ancestry. Knowing where you match will allow you to created Triangulated Groups, indicating a common ancestor.

Holly
21-07-19, 07:53
Yes PhotoFamily,

I've up uploaded to GEDMatch, My Heritage, Family Tree DNA, etc. I've also tested with Living DNA.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to persuade my DNA match in Canada to upload anywhere else:-(

A lot of people have some funny ideas about DNA! I think that people also think that DNA test results are 'set in stone' and can't see the point of pursuing it further:-(

Holly.

kylejustin
21-07-19, 09:10
A lot of people have some funny ideas about DNA! I think that people also think that DNA test results are 'set in stone' and can't see the point of pursuing it further

Might be more the privacy concerns re what is done to your dna and who can access it. Especially after they are catching killers with the databases, the general public thinks the authorities are given rough shod access, when we all know they can only see what we do, the dna matches.

Holly
21-07-19, 09:20
GedMatch updated their Privacy policy a short while back, - you can now choose if you wish to allow your DNA to be available for searching or not.

I'm guessing this was after 2 high profile cases were solved by using their data bases; the 'Buckskin Girl' murder and the 'Golden state' killer?

Holly.

cbcarolyn
21-07-19, 09:55
I assume that they do not have any of this Kean family in their tree? Any Manchester Keans?

Holly
21-07-19, 11:00
Yes, they have several Thomas Keans, from Manchester, but some of it is guesswork. They haven't ordered any BMD Certs, or anything like that.

Holly.

Holly
30-08-19, 13:51
I've now had a reply from The Royal Engineers Museum in Kent concerning who was at Shorncliffe Camp during the 1891 Census:

'A former Royal Engineers Librarian completed a list of companies and their locations for the period. I am pleased to say that after searching each company I can confirm that 38 Company were in Shorncliffe from 1889-1892 and the commanding officer was Major C H Darling



1892 moved to Chatham

1894 to Aldershot

1897 Curragh

1899 South Africa for the Boer War (no more detailed info into where though)

1905 Stobs Camp, Roxburgshire

1906 Disbanded



Before Shorncliffe the company was in Curragh.

Which is all very interesting, - however, it doesn't really help me to ascertain whether any records remain concerning possible desertions beween 1891 - '93...

Holly.

cbcarolyn
30-08-19, 20:47
Have you managed to find any other data, not sure where you had got to.

Holly
30-08-19, 21:00
Haven't made much progress I'm afraid Carolyn.

Have been dealing with my Mother's death and funeral.

Just got this reply from the RE Museum today.

Holly.

cbcarolyn
30-08-19, 21:05
aww I am sorry to hear your news :(

Holly
30-08-19, 21:19
Thanks Carolyn,

She was 95, - but we only have one Mother, - and so it's a loss:-(

Holly

cbcarolyn
30-08-19, 23:13
how true, my parents are a similar age.

PhotoFamily
29-10-19, 19:13
If Richard Kean were a deserter - would there be a list of deserters anywhere, and can it be recovered?

But didn't you say that he seemed to have money that allowed him to set up his business, and that you thought (or knew?) that it was from the RE service? I don't think he would have had any reward for deserting ;)

Holly
29-10-19, 19:28
No lists of deserters were kept in peacetime.

I'm merely guessing that he's possibly my Grandfather. Some of my DNA Matches are from the Kean/Butler families from Manchester. Richard Kean, born 1860 Manchester, was the son of Richard Kean and Frances Butler.

In the report into Bankruptcy proceedings against my Grandfather in Swansea in 1899, he says that he started his Business with the sum of £36 in 1895. There is no way of knowing where this came from!

Holly.