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the_colour_silver_82
15-07-19, 01:43
Hello ..
I'm a new member to this forum ..
Does anyone know where i can get more info about Portuguese Ancestry ???

Jill on the A272
15-07-19, 06:29
Welcome to the forum, our Portugal page is here with some links:

https://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/458-Portugal

the_colour_silver_82
16-07-19, 00:48
Thankyou for the link ..

kylejustin
18-07-19, 08:48
You will have to know where in portugal your family came from. Have you got this information from birth, death or marriage records?

Familysearch has some portugese records, but i'm not sure what is covered.

the_colour_silver_82
19-07-19, 00:46
well .. i have a full family history from my line .. back through to the 1800's being my grandfather from that era ..

the info i have about him is rather limited .. and even then .. its seemingly not accurate ..

he was a crew member of the harriet armitage which left lyttleton back in 1863 .. which came to australia ..

as for certificates about his birth (somewhere in azores) .. his marriage to his wife .. and his death .. i'm not sure ..

i do have some info about the date of his marriage .. but the handwriting is near illegible ..

hence why i'm on here .. and also doing general research via whatever google can find ..

kylejustin
19-07-19, 09:53
What state did he settle in? Did he marry in australia? Or bring the family over after?

The eastern states have more detail in bmd's, vic, qsld and nsw. Tas and sa had limited info, like english bmd's. Wa started off limited but got more detailed.

If he married here, in the eastern states his marriage will record his age, birthplace and parents names.

Did he have children here? Once again in the eastern states their records will state his name, age, occupation and birthplace. Same for mother and details of when and where for their marriage.

The death cert should record place of birth and parents names, if known by the informant.

Do you have these records? If not, i advise obtaining them. I would also suggest getting all the births of the children, if you can. As the info on birthplace varies from birth to birth. Some may say "portugal" but one or more might be more specific.

If you can get a screenshot of the marriage details you can't read, post it here and see if we can help.

the_colour_silver_82
22-07-19, 00:46
yes he did marry here ... and had children here ..

i do have info about his marriage date ..

and i know where he is buried .. which is another path i'm following ..

its his life in the portugal area that i have almost no info about ..

and then there is the ship he was a crew member of ..

kylejustin
22-07-19, 01:59
You need to know where in portugal he came from in order to learn about his life.

Get all the australian certificates you can, as this will tell you. Then you can go about finding records in portugal.

Macbev
22-07-19, 05:50
As Kyle suggests, Australian bdm certs are generally quite informative. My grandfather (dead long before my birth) came from Ireland but married, raised children and died in Western Australia. From his marriage and death certs I found his place of birth in Ireland, his parents' names, his age, his father's occupation, trace his emigration records and his length of stay in 3 Australian States. I was then able to locate his birth in Kerry, Ireland, his siblings and eventually , some living Irish kinfolk. I was pretty thrilled by all this, as my father never spoke much of his family and I knew next to nothing about them.

You may also strike lucky by using the Trove website- https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPtYzD3cfjAhWUfSsKHaKBBW0QFjAAegQIBxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrove.nla.gov.au%2F&usg=AOvVaw3mp--ywd_vIeZMXrk0pDcH

the_colour_silver_82
25-07-19, 00:50
he was born .. supposedly in the azores area .. and came to australia on the harriet armitage ..

as for the ship .. i only have a crew member list ..

the_colour_silver_82
08-08-19, 04:48
does anyone know anything about lyttleton port ??

the ship my great grandfather was a crew member on, sailed from that port ..

I'm having difficulty finding it ..

thanks ..

Janet in Yorkshire
08-08-19, 10:27
I thought the port of Lyttelton was in NZ?
Might he have joined the ship there? Have you been able to find out anything about that particular voyage, i.e where she sailed from, any ports of call on way?
Did he continue to go to sea once he settled in Australia, or may working his passage have been a means of getting there?

Jay

Macbev
08-08-19, 16:47
Lyttleton port was the port associated with Christchurch, NZ and the major outlet for the Canterbury Plains settlers. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyttelton,_New_Zealand

the_colour_silver_82
10-08-19, 00:42
thats what is puzzling me ..

why work on a ship ..that sails from a port in nz .. that supposedly took at least seven days to get to australia ..

and yet .. be born in azores somewhere ..

the crew record is about the most info i have .. of him ..

this is the url: http://marinersandships.com.au/1863/02/061har.htm

Anne in Carlisle
10-08-19, 07:43
It was (and is still) common for ships' crews to be of several or many nationalities. I definitely wouldn't rule a sailor out just because he was working on the other side of the world.
Anne

Janet in Yorkshire
10-08-19, 11:13
Sailors could be taken on as temporary crew members for one voyage only and some (especially single men) did a lot of travelling, around the world, not just Europe.
Have you got documentation that he was born in the Azores? "Portugal" could mean born in a Portuguese territory, rather than in the mother country. Over the centuries the Portuguese were great sailors and explorers and many territories, including parts of Africa, Goa, Macau and Timor were under Portuguese influence. As lots of the colonies relied on trading, this would have involved transportation of goods and links with shipping. So, I think it quite feasible that someone of Portuguese nationality could have worked his passage around the globe and ended up in Australia.

Jay

the_colour_silver_82
12-08-19, 02:22
well thats exactly what i am after .. info of his birth .. in azores .. and that of any info about his birth family ..

its "common knowledge" in the family that he was born in azores .. somewhere ..

apparently he didn't divulge much info to his own children or grand children about where he was born ..

and thats what i am after .. because that info is not included in a family reunion book from 1994 .. it really needs updating ..

kylejustin
12-08-19, 08:07
You still haven't stated whether you have the certificates for your relative and his children. They will record where he states he is from. Just because family lore states he is from the azores, does not make it so. My great great grandfather was supposedly born in paris, and the birth certificates of his children state this. His own marriage states he was born in mauritius, which is the truth. Unless you have copies of the records and they state the azores, then you won't get any further back.

Janet in Yorkshire
12-08-19, 10:06
well .. i have a full family history from my line .. back through to the 1800's being my grandfather from that era ..

the info i have about him is rather limited .. and even then .. its seemingly not accurate .. he was a crew member of the harriet armitage which left lyttleton back in 1863 .. which came to australia ..

as for certificates about his birth (somewhere in azores) .. his marriage to his wife .. and his death .. i'm not sure .. i do have some info about the date of his marriage .. but the handwriting is near illegible ..

hence why i'm on here .. and also doing general research via whatever google can find ..

Perhaps you'd like to tell us some of the information that you ARE sure about (names, places, dates) and what evidence you have to support this. if you haven't already got it, I would have thought that purchasing a copy of the death certificate for your grandfather would have been a good starting point. You say you have a copy of his marriage certificate, but can't read the handwriting - is this a copy of the original which you have bought or a copy of a copy handed down through the family? If the latter, it may be worthwhile buying your own original copy; if you have already purchased a copy of the original, then perhaps you could contact the relevant document keepers, explain which parts are illegible and ask them for their interpretation.
At the moment it seems that you are asking for "general" advice. I suspect we will be unable to help you find detailed information unless you supply forum members with some more specific information to work with.

Jay

Katarzyna
12-08-19, 12:45
Name:
Jose Silva


Estimated birth year:
abt 1840


Age:
26


Port of Departure:
Tome (no such place, Difficult to read).


Port of Arrival:
Sydney, New South Wales


Voyage Arrival Date:
16 Feb 1866


Vessel Name:
Mary and Edith


Origin (of crew member) Location:
Lisbon


https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1210&h=1946406&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zJk366&_phstart=successSource

So looks like he continued as crew for a while.

and this one?


Name:
Jose Silva


Estimated birth year:
abt 1842


Age:
22


Port of Departure:
Brisbane


Port of Arrival:
Sydney, New South Wales


Voyage Arrival Date:
20 May 1864


Vessel Name:
Lion


Origin (of crew member) Location:
Fyai (Again no such place - Difficult to read)


https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1210&h=1697835&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zJk368&_phstart=successSource



Name:
Jose Sylva


Estimated birth year:
abt 1840


Age:
23


Port of Departure:
A Whaling Vogage


Port of Arrival:
Sydney, New South Wales


Voyage Arrival Date:
1 Oct 1863


Vessel Name:
Alabama


Origin (of crew member) Location:
Amr (possible same place as third person on list -see image if you can translate it!)


https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1210&h=1657135&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zJk369&_phstart=successSource

Katarzyna
12-08-19, 12:59
Name:
Joseph Silver


Estimated birth year:
abt 1838


Age:
26


Port of Departure:
Wellington


Port of Arrival:
Sydney, New South Wales


Voyage Arrival Date:
9 Dec 1864


Vessel Name:
Spray


Origin Location:
Fayal


https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1210&h=1840251&ssrc=pt&tid=45391877&pid=24061792906&usePUB=true

It is possible that FYAI/Fayal is Faial da Terra, Azores, Portugal.

Katarzyna
12-08-19, 13:01
Ha! there is a tree for Joseph Silver on Ancestry: Is this yours?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/45391877/person/24061792906/facts

Katarzyna
12-08-19, 13:24
Sorry was reposting something already here.

Katarzyna
12-08-19, 13:44
http://www.worldgenweb.org/azrwgw/general-info/links.html

Faial da Terra is a civil parish in the municipality of Povoação on the island of São Miguel
Parish records recorded Baptisms, Marriages, and deaths. The parish for Faial da Terra is Nossa Senhora da Graca,

Janet in Yorkshire
12-08-19, 15:04
Nice finds, Kat :good:
Wonders if poster has checked for documentation of this information?

Jay

the_colour_silver_82
13-08-19, 01:25
firsty .. there is this:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13074396?searchTerm=harriet%20armitage&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-title=35

the ship name is highlighted ..

secondly i'm not registered wtih the ancestry website ..

he was naturalised on oct 11 1895 .. am after confirmation for that ..

died aug 18 1908 .. born 1841 ... according to https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49534308/joseph-silver

he married Laurence and Johanna Nowland’s daughter, Catherine (born c/ 1856 @ Lochinvar NSW) @ Tulcumbah near Gunnedah NSW Aug 8 1876
Catherine died Oct 21 1941 @ Barraba NSW.

as for the marriage cert .. i have something .. which i will submit ..

and i don't have his birth cert ..

Macbev
13-08-19, 09:55
I've had a quick look at the National Archives search page (https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx) which is free to search,although you will have to register as a 'guest' and can find only two Joseph Silvas mentioned as naturalised, one in 1893, the other in 1897. One gave his occupation as a hairdresser, the other a miner. I didn't look for alternative spellings of the name.

Macbev
13-08-19, 10:04
The tree mentioned in post #24 has quite a lot of detail, including documentation of naturalization in NSW. Would suggest you use your public library which will probably give you free access to Ancestry to allow you to check out the tree mentioned in that post. Looks as though the tree owner has researched fairly thoroughly. I have saved the image of the naturalization and can send it to you if you like to PM your email address to me

Katarzyna
13-08-19, 10:04
Most of what you need is available on line or through Australian Archives. Unfortunately like us you have to pay most of the time in order to retrieve the information.
You can apply for a free trial to Ancestry.

https://www.ancestry.com.au/cs/offers/freetrial/

Then come back and click on the above links. Also you would be able to send a message to the person with the tree on Ancestry linked above.

Katarzyna
13-08-19, 10:09
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1549/30516_081743-00429/3744?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/45391877/person/24061792906/facts/citation/112652240842/edit/record
Natuaralisation doc. 1895 a dealer living in Upper Manilla, NSW - from Azores. Arrived 1863

the_colour_silver_82
14-08-19, 00:43
a "dealer" ??

ha ha ha ..

surely not drugs .. a dealer of antiques or something ..

hmmm ..

the document i "thought" i had .. is actually this .. https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?7

i'm not registered with ancestry .. so those links are no good to me ..

a PM is coming your way macbev ..

the_colour_silver_82
16-08-19, 00:54
well .. the marriage cert .. i don't have .. only that reference ..

and the naturalization paper .. puzzles me ..

according to this http://i65.tinypic.com/5xr53t.jpg he came to aus on the ship abrolhos .. http://marinersandships.com.au/1865/05/017abr.htmv

the birth year on his grave marking .. puts him on the harriet armitage ..

two different ships .. an age gap of 6 years ..

which one is it ???????????????????????????????? ...

and i must add this .. http://i63.tinypic.com/2ujp1u8.jpg ..

Janet in Yorkshire
16-08-19, 13:38
Hi Silver, I can't call up any information at all on either of the links you posted:(
Looks to me as if you have come across two interesting family history accounts, but unfortunately neither of them contains any references to back up the details in the story.
If it were me, I would want to start the story afresh - beginning with myself and documenting each stage of the journey with the relevant certificates/alternative paperwork to show names, dates, places and prove relationships. Yes it will cost money to get any missing evidence (we are all aware that genealogy can be expensive!!) but without it we cannot establish the links between the generations and guarantee accuracy.
How far back from yourself, generation wise, do you have documentary evidence to prove your descent? I would suggest that you use these proven facts as your starting point for further research. I'm sure the family history accounts above will have many leads which you can follow up. I know very little about Australian genealogy sources, so can't give advice on WHERE to look to back up the information in the two accounts - but we have several forum members who will be able to help you.

Jay

the_colour_silver_82
17-08-19, 02:02
that link should work .. i copied it directly from the url ..

it starts from me, my father, my pop or as follows:

joseph da silva, born c/1836; married catherine nowland, on aug 8 1876, age 40
they had three sons.
1: peter silver born 1888; died 1909, no further info - he was 21.
2: francis silver born 1892; married on oct 21 1915 age 23.
died june 20 1966, chermside hospital, buried mt gravatt brisbane (july 22 '19, from page j24 of family history book).
3: paul james silver born 1894; married march 4 1919 age 25.

2) francis silver had two sons:
1: leonard silver born 1916; married 1940 age 24
no sons.
2: lawrence silver born 1918; married 1953 age 35* (married march 8 '53).
6 sons:
names removed
have some info about them.

3) paul james silver had two sons:
1: name removed silver born 1927; married 1948 age 21.
5 sons.
2:
name removed silver born 1930; married 1969 age 39*
1 son.


name removed sons, are
names removed.


name removed son
name removed, born 1971; no current record of marriage.


name removed born 1949; married 1977 age 28

name removed born 1952; married 1984 age 32

name removed born 1956; married 1977 age 21

name removed born 1958; married 1984 age 26

name removed born 1965; married 1986 21


name removed son is
name removed, born 1978

name removed son is me, born 1982.

name removed sons are are
name removed born 1984 and
name removed, born 1988.

name removed sons are
names removed.

that info is correct up to paul james .. being my pop's father .. well, thats what i know ..

before paul james is what i know, from the family tree booklet ..

Olde Crone Holden
17-08-19, 09:21
Were Joseph and Catherine really married for 12 years before they had their first child? How old was Catherine at marriage?

OC

Macbev
17-08-19, 09:52
If the Ancestry tree here https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/45391877/person/24061792906/facts is correct, there were several daughters also, one of whom was b.2 Dec 1876 (Anthony is not able to see this tree as he does not have a sub)

cbcarolyn
17-08-19, 09:55
I can see that there is a v on the end of the url re the ship
http://marinersandships.com.au/1865/05/017abr.htm

Olde Crone Holden
17-08-19, 10:27
Thanks Macbev. So the written history is selected information not a full tree.

My advice would be the same as anyone else's on here - start again from scratch and prove everything with primary documents, not hearsay evidence.

OC

Macbev
17-08-19, 10:47
Actually, the handwritten history (post #32) contains the same list of children as the tree on Ancestry. I suspect there is also room for error as there seem to be two seamen of similar age and name operating in and out of Sydney during the early 1860s. Hard to be certain who is who.

Would have to concur with the advice from others.

"My advice would be the same as anyone else's on here - start again from scratch and prove everything with primary documents, not hearsay evidence."

Katarzyna
17-08-19, 10:57
As I said in post #29 you need to get the FREE trial for Ancestry through that link. Then you will be able to see what we are all seeing. The two ships show he was an AB in 1863 on the Harriett Armitage from NZ and a 2nd mate on the Abrolhos which came from Rio in 1865. So it appears he was on both - not either/or.. he could have been back and forth several times in between. He must have got to NZ by another ship pre 1863 - assuming all these records are for him - I don't think you can ever be sure. You will need to look for ships arriving NZ pre 1863 to see if you can find him. He could even have been a stowaway.
However as others have said you need to follow a paper trail from yourself backwards to prove each step of the way.

the_colour_silver_82
19-08-19, 00:53
catherine was born in 1856 .. and was 20 when she married joseph ..

and my apologies for including names of people currently alive .. which has been edited ..

well i don't know about the 12 years .. but she may have already been with child at the wedding ..

and i have been starting from scratch .. with the info i have .. plus my mother is doing an online search ..

unfortunately i just don't have access to ancestry .. otherwise i'd go on there myself ..

i have tried the rms and the other local archive sites .. such as naa .. as with ancestry .. i don;t have the finances available to continue my search online ..

hence why i created this thread ..

cbcarolyn
19-08-19, 08:51
have you tried your local library for Ancestry also maybe find my past, many have it. Don't forget you can normally join any library, so if you are near enough you can cross the county boundary and try another. check out on line the resources they have available. I don't have worldwide membership and always visit library for these.

Janet in Yorkshire
19-08-19, 12:14
Carolyn, I think Silver lives outside the UK, so I'm not sure about free public library access to Ancestry. However, I would think that it would be available at a local LDS family history centre, which are global.

Jay

Macbev
19-08-19, 12:31
Silver is Australian. I can only vouch for my state (WA), which has free Ancestry access both in the State Library and the local council libraries...but I would be surprised to learn that similar conditions do not exist in the other States. Of course, he may live in a very small town with no library available.

the_colour_silver_82
21-08-19, 00:48
ha .. i live in newcastle .. (not the UK) ..

and regularly use the internet here at that library ..

not sure newcastle library has any ancestry links ..

would probably have to go to sydney .. for that ..

ozgirl
21-08-19, 08:32
According to their webpage, Newcastle libraries subscribe to both Ancestry and FindMyPast. I think it is available in all their branches.

http://www.newcastle.nsw.gov.au/Library/Heritage-History/Family-History/Databases

You might be spending a lot of time there!

kylejustin
21-08-19, 09:07
Most libraries in australia have ancestry. So you should be able to view family trees and any sources they have added on there. Plus other record collections.

As for proof your ancestor was from the azores, you will need to buy some bmd records. Nsw is expensive, but you can get cheaper copies by going for a transcription by a registered transcriber. They are listed on the registry website. I prefer to fork out for the actual image though, as some are hard to read and you might be able to recognise written words a transcriber couldn't.

You can't progress unless you spend some money, or if someone has a copy of the bmd's on their ancestry tree. Family history books are riddled with mistakes and you will have access to records now that the authors wouldn't, thanks to the internet.

Start with the marriage record, as the information is given by your ancestor. It will tell you if he was married previously, where he was born, his age and his parents names. If the information isn't detailed or specific, start getting the children's births as his birthplace is recorded on their records.

the_colour_silver_82
22-08-19, 00:47
i have no record of his birth cert ..

trying to find marriage cert .. they married at a cattle station .. being tulcumbah .. near lake keepit ..

and .. their children of birth order is:

this is from a letter to me, by my fathers auntie ... and that of the family tree book.

joseph and catherine married on aug 8 1876, at tulcumbah (a cattle station place near lake keepit, nsw)
their 11 children are as follows:
1: bridget agatha silver, born dec 2 1876 (tulcumbah), died june 25 1960 (ebbeville, in or near upper manilla)
2: clarinda silver born 1878, died 1975 (no other info).
3: mary hannah silver born 1880, married thomas riley (date and location not known), died 1976.
4: catherine mary silver born 1881, had 3 marriages, died 1978 (no further info).
5: isabella silver born 1884, (aug 31 1883 according to book), married william joseph brown, she died nov 5 1954, in newcastle nsw.
6: jane (annie) silver born 1887, (or feb 21 1883 according to book), married edward clarence rowe, died in sandgate in newcastle (no other info).
7: theresa silver, born 1887 and died 1890 (supposedly).
8: joseph peter silver born 1888, died 1909, somewhere.
9: dellavena silver born 1890, married william sidney rowe in taree in 1911, she died july 10 1962 in taree.
10:francis silver born april 25 1892 in manilla nsw, married oct 27 1915 to may hilda price at gunnedah, he died june 20 1966, chermside hospital.
11: paul james silver, born jan 17 1894 at upper manilla, married ruby levena thom march 4 1919, he died nov 3 1985 in tamworth nsw.

paul james is the father of pop, being joseph james silver.
joseph was born may 27 1927, in barraba, he married edna joan porter aug 21 1948, he died nov 19 2011.
joseph is the father of my father.

and i have found info of joseph da .. working a farm in upper manilla, which i previously didn't know ..

i wonder would newspapers have articles pre-1900 ???

kylejustin
22-08-19, 00:54
there is a marriage showing in the nsw bmd indexes (free) for "joseph silver" to "catherine nowlan" 1876 in gunnedah district.

https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?3

"trove" is a good start for newspapers, but hit and miss. it's the national library website.

the_colour_silver_82
22-08-19, 01:08
yeah i have that reference but not the actual copy .. which i am after ..

kylejustin
22-08-19, 02:00
yeah i have that reference but not the actual copy .. which i am after ..

which you will have to buy....as no one has a copy of it on ancestry. but they all have the date and no parents, which suggests they all have the same as you, the book. the actual record will be very informative, so buy it.

Katarzyna
22-08-19, 08:31
The State Library of NSW in Sydney has a copy of this book. see below.
Even if it doesn't contain your personal family I suspect it would be interesting reading re the area and the history of a place where Joseph brought up his family.
UMRRT reunion 1991.



Author:
Upper Manilla Recreation Reserve Trust. (https://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3AUpper+Manilla+Recreation+Reserve+Tru st.&qt=hot_author)


Publisher:
[Manilla, N.S.W.] : [Upper Manilla Recreation Reserve Trust], [1991]


Edition/Format:
https://static1.worldcat.org/wcpa/rel20190717/images/icon-bks.gif Print book : English






Subjects


Upper Manilla Public School -- History. (https://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AUpper+Manilla+Public+School+History.&qt=hot_subject)
Country life -- Australia -- Upper Manilla (N.S.W.) -- History. (https://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3ACountry+life+Australia+Upper+Manilla +%28N.S.W.%29+History.&qt=hot_subject)
Rural families -- Australia -- Upper Manilla (N.S.W.) -- History. (https://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3ARural+families+Australia+Upper+Manil la+%28N.S.W.%29+History.&qt=hot_subject)

the_colour_silver_82
28-08-19, 02:40
the state lib of nsw in sydney .. wow ok ..

and no on ancestry has a copy .. hmmm ..

the_colour_silver_82
29-08-19, 05:14
i have to correct something ..

my pop died in 2010, not 2011.

the_colour_silver_82
23-10-19, 00:07
well, I have done something I haven't wanted to do, and that's register with facebook.
surprisingly, It may work, finding distant relatives.