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EmpireUmpire
27-06-19, 13:36
Hi all,

My 3x Great Grandfather was called James Desbrow, here is what I know about him -

- Born c1808
- Appears on the 1841 Census as James Deshone, living in Finchley.
- Appears on the 1851 Census as James Desbrow, living in Finchley.
- Died 1856 in Barnet, Middlesex.

The problem I face is this, I cannot find a birth record for him - the 1851 Census gives his place of birth but I cannot make it out, perhaps Berks or Beds.

If anyone could help find his birth record I may be able to find his parents and move back from there.

I have been stuck on this for years and any assistance would be wonderful.

Kind regards, J

Jill on the A272
27-06-19, 14:50
This is the link (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/BRKHO107_1701_1701-0858?pid=3848317&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=iPy363&_phstart=successSource)to the 1851 (on Ancestry) if anyone wants a look. I'm afraid I haven't any helpful ideas at the moment.

Carol Bird
27-06-19, 15:42
I read that as Fenlock, Bedfordshire.

Hope that helps.

Carol

ozgirl
27-06-19, 16:26
Oops looked at wrong entry

cbcarolyn
27-06-19, 16:53
does look like beds, maybe berks. I can't think of anywhere that it looks like. I live near Flitwick in beds, and that is pronounced flitick, but think that is a stretch, but am guessing it is something like that, spelt wrongly.

Sylvia C
27-06-19, 17:23
I assume that this is him on FMP ........

James is shown as James Desbrow, b.ca 1811. Occupation Tailor. Address Hog Market. Wife Ann. Children; Joseph 3, Eliza 1, and Ann 3 months (??3 days). All shown as born in County (Middlesex)

https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=GBC/1841/0006983120


However, in the 1851 he is shown as Bricklayer, with wife Ann, children Joseph, Eliza, Ann, Daniel, Peter, Charles and John, plus mother-in-law Mary King.

The transcript on FMP says "Bedfordshire, England" .......

.... I think the image does say Beds

But I can make no guess as to the place name other than it does seem to begin with F when I look at other entries on the page.

Sylvia C
27-06-19, 17:32
James Desbrow married Ann Grace King in 1836, Hornsey, Middlesex ......... no image as it is a Boyd's Index

https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=GBPRS/M/754550287/1

Ancestry has the Parish Register entry for their marriage

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1623&h=1771908&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wde177&_phstart=successSource

No father's name on Register, and I can't make out the witnesses names, although doesn't seem to be Desbrow!

Sylvia C
27-06-19, 17:37
??????????????????/

I'm throwing this out as a possibility for a baptism in Bedfordshire, even though the year is out ..........

https://www.findmypast.com.au/transcript?id=R_951776428

James Desborough, baptised 12 October 1812, Potton, Bedfordshire. Father Jas, Mother Hannah

vera2013
27-06-19, 18:44
Wiki has a Fancott, Beds.

Wonder why he changed his occupation from Tailor to Bricklayer to labourer??

Vera

ozgirl
27-06-19, 19:09
It could be Fenlake which is now a suburb of Bedford.

Carol Bird
27-06-19, 20:17
Fenlake was previously, I believe, called Fenlock - see post #3 above

Carol

Anne in Carlisle
27-06-19, 21:06
Ooh yes. I read it as Beds but now you say there was actually somewhere called Fenlock it makes good sense.
As I know to my cost, Bedfordshire records are very badly represented online. Just because its small ..... sigh!! Bedford was a hotbed of Methodism too so a baptism may not have been a parish church one. The County Archive in Bedford is very good but you need to go there in person if possible.
Anne

ozgirl
27-06-19, 22:06
Fenlake was previously, I believe, called Fenlock - see post #3 above

Carol

As mentioned in this book - towards the bottom of the 2nd column of the left page. Stated to be in the parish of Cardington

https://archive.org/details/bedfordshirepari19bedf/page/n47


This book is the parish registers of Cardington from 1572 - 1812. However I couldn't find any Desbrow/Desboroughs in it.

https://archive.org/details/bedfordshirepari08bedf/page/n5

cbcarolyn
27-06-19, 22:10
it is a tiny place in 1841 - 5 pages, but looking very faded, hoping that there was still a Desbrow there :( :
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/BDFHO107_9_10-0216?pid=3836757&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DfVi10391%26_phstart%3DsuccessSour ce%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26c p%3D0%26_F000391C%3Dbedford%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%2 6uidh%3Dd54%26redir%3Dfalse%26msT%3D1%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D3836757%26recoff%3D%2 6ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi10391&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=BDFHO107_7_9-0556

cbcarolyn
29-06-19, 22:43
did have a search around, but didn't find anything.

nearest to the area mentioned is this:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9841&h=141178966&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi10539&_phstart=successSource

Also I see that there are a number of baptisms in 1700s that are in Haynes, this is quite near to Cardington.

Fancott is a few miles north of Luton.

daldrow
07-09-19, 00:04
Hi all,

My 3x Great Grandfather was called James Desbrow, here is what I know about him -

- Born c1808
- Appears on the 1841 Census as James Deshone, living in Finchley.
- Appears on the 1851 Census as James Desbrow, living in Finchley.
- Died 1856 in Barnet, Middlesex.

The problem I face is this, I cannot find a birth record for him - the 1851 Census gives his place of birth but I cannot make it out, perhaps Berks or Beds.


1) James Desbrow is my 2 x great-grandfather and progenitor of the “Finchley Desbrows”.

2) According to Census records he was born in Fenlock, Beds in 1808.
3) In 1965 the Beds County Archivist informed me that:
a) Fenlock was the local pronunciation of Fenlake.
b) In early 1800’s Fenlake was a hamlet near Bedford; but now part of that city.
c) A search of Beds birth/baptismal records for that period yielded no Desbrows.
d) At the time there were many dissenters (from C of E) in Beds and birth/baptismal records for such are patchy.

4) James married Ann Grace King in 1836; aged 28.
5) James and Ann had 11 children including my great-grandfather Joseph, the eldest.
6) James died in Finchley in 1855, aged 48.

That is more or less where matters accurately stand as far as I am aware. In the following I shall refer specifically to my 2 x great-grandfather as “my” James.

There is an online record (which I have not verified) stating that (my editing)
James Desbrow was born in 1808 to John Desbrow and Sarah [nee Desborow or Desborough].
John was born in 1779, in Woodnewton Northamptonshire.
Sarah was born in 1781, in Polebrook Northamptonshire.
James had 3 siblings including John Desbrow [Jr].


There is an online record (which I have not verified) stating that (my editing)
John Desbrow was born in 1779 to John Desbrow [Sr] and Mary (nee Clithero).
John [Sr] was born circa 1748.
Mary was born in 1757, in Benefield Northamptonshire.
John had 4 siblings.
John married Sarah [nee Desborow or Desborough] circa 1801, aged 22.
Sarah was born in 1781, in Polebrook.
They had 4 children including James Desbrow.
John passed away in 1851, aged 72.


I have copy of an 1851 Census transcription for Polebrook Northants recording Desbrow household members as (my editing)

John Head born 1779 in Woodnewton, Northants tailor


Sarah Wife born 1781 in Polebrook
John [Jr] unmarried Son born 1802 in Polebrook tailor
William unmarried Son born 1808 in Polebrook tailor

According to the two records above there are thus two children of John Desbrow’s family not part of his 1851 household; of whom James is identified as one by the latter record.

What is consistent with this James Desbrow being “my” James?
7) “my” James did indeed marry Ann Grace King in 1836 aged 28 (as 4)) so that he would have been born in 1807 or 1808.
8) “my” James was in Finchley, London and so definitely not in John Desbrow’s household in Polebrook in 1851.
9) On a birth certificate dated 1844 for his daughter Maria (which I have) “my” James’ occupation was given as tailor.
10) One of ”my” James’ children was baptised John—perhaps in honour of James’ father?

What is inconsistent?
11) If “my” James were John’s and Sarah’s son (and remember that the census return only records residing household members in 1851 by which time “my” James is recorded as living in Finchley) then, barring unlikely events, James’ and brother William’s stated common birth year 1808 is problematical.
12) According to copy of the Death Certificate for “my” James (which I have) he died on 27th December 1855 aged 48 years so that he would have been born in 1806 or 1807; most probably, given the precise date of death, the latter. If so, this could resolve the unlikelihood/impossibility of his being born in the same year as “brother” William and is in agreement with 7).

There are two further difficulties about this possible identification.
13) Why is there no record of birth/baptism for “my” James in Beds? Is there such record at All Saints Polebrook or St Mary’s Woodnewton or other non-conformist church in either parish? Was he not baptised? Was this a secret illegitimate and possibly unrecorded birth? Did James fictionalise his origins for the census?
14) The former above quoted on-line record for James Desbrow provides an address for him in 1861 despite its recording his death already in 1854. This incompatibility casts serious doubt upon the integrity of the entire record and suggests two James’s are being confused and conflated; possibly “my” James and his son James [Jr] (1853-1909?).

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 09:13
Could the dates for William be correct and they are twins? Do you have any records on him? if so then it is really unlikely as they would have been baptised together, and it is also possible for them to be not twins but still born within same year.

Clearly the birthplace is very inconsistent - and would make no sense for twins, but guess that the place could be wrong as it is only mentioned on one record. The move from Northampton to Bedford also seems suspicious if it was tiny. Did archivist give any you any history of the place?

I think they were all tailors which is a positive, I am not sure how common this occupation was.

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 09:26
there were some desbrows in Haynes and also that one in Kempston (link I posted), have you pursued any of those to see if you can find a logical link?

daldrow
07-09-19, 13:23
Just noticed that a couple of lines from the online record for James D. dropped off in the posting (How does that happen?) They are relevant to the rest of the post and are:
James married Anne [sic] Grace King of London in 1836, aged 28.
James passed away in 1854, aged 46.

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 15:04
the Northamptonshire baptisms on Ancestry that I can see are:
Parents John and Sarah (corrected from Mary in register) in Polebrook
John 16 Aug 1801
Mary 20 Jan 1805
William 16 Aug 1807
Elizabeth 24 Jun 1810

They were tailors, but there is a death for a John at this age in Polebrook, so maybe didn’t go to Bedfordshire. I can’t find 1841 census at the moment, only 1851

John (above) had brothers Robert and William, sister Mary all born in Wood Newton Northants, lots of tailors also. Wondered if James had come from one of these. I have not found a family for William yet, but there is a death in same village matching his birth, so doesn't look like he moved far. Robert also seemed to have stayed local and can't see a James with him either.

Using the Northamptonshire records there is a James in Irchester parents Thomas and Mary children are:


William Desborough 25 Dec 1798
Elizth Desborough 20 May 1804
Mary Desborough 6 Apr 1806
Thomas Desborough 11 Dec 1808
James Desborough 17 May 1812

none of these names appear to be part of the family names, and have not looked at these in census at all.

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 18:01
this is the James from Irchester - so not him
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=8779219&usePUB=true&_phsrc=SZd19883&_phstart=successSource

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 18:38
I have copy of an 1851 Census transcription for Polebrook Northants recording Desbrow household members as (my editing)

John Head born 1779 in Woodnewton, Northants tailor


Sarah Wife born 1781 in Polebrook
John [Jr] unmarried Son born 1802 in Polebrook tailor
William unmarried Son born 1808 in Polebrook tailor

According to the two records above there are thus two children of John Desbrow’s family not part of his 1851 household; of whom James is identified as one by the latter record.


Here is the 1841 census John, Sarah and William only not sure if you have ancestry
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=8815351&ssrc=pt&tid=82183502&pid=382130696360&usePUB=true

daldrow
07-09-19, 19:37
Thank you so much Carolyn for the effort you have put in. I have been sceptical all along that “my” James was a son of John & Sarah Desbrow (Woodnewton/Polebrook) despite the online attribution. Your findings seem to confirm that most likely he was not, since you have identified their four Polebrook-baptised offspring as John, Mary, William and Elizabeth — no James. It did occur to me at one time that William might have been William James or that a babe in arms had left Fenlake as James and arrived at All Saints in Polebrook as William. But No! In 1851 William was unmarried in Polebrook and James married in Finchley. Where to now?

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 19:57
the only snippet you have is Fenlake,

On family search there are a number of baptisms in Elstow, parents James and Mary (Disbury and Desborough), have you tried to find them?
Mary, John, William, Elizabeth, Edward, James could be their first born

there is the Ann Desbrow Elstow 1829 - she might be related

Haynes and Maulden (next village to where I live) Also have a number of old births, these are a few miles of Fenlake

daldrow
07-09-19, 20:24
It's not just that I only have Fenlake; I only have Finchley and London (in UK) thereafter.
Over the years (since early 1960’s) on and off I have been on the track of James D., following various Desbrow families till my head now spins at the recollection of them all.
I'll try your suggestions even if not now sure if I already have.
I do not now subscribe to any ancestry sites but use free ones. That may be a bit restricting.
Once more thanks for your continued interest and suggestions.

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 21:14
well I think I have found them in 1841 as Desborough, still in Elstow

but the father is not a tailor, an agricultural labourer, so not fitting particularly well:

Name Age
James Desborough 42
Mary Desborough 45
William Desborough 25
Edward Desborough 20
Betley Desborough 20
Ann Desborough 12
Mary Desborough 5

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/BDFHO107_5_6-0538?pid=3320881&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26h%3D3320881%26ss rc%3Dpt%26tid%3D418163%26pid%3D410167371285%26useP UB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=418163&personid=410167371285&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.252963529.1361936068.1567631255-1485122363.1543608453

you can always try the library for free access to ancestry and/or FindmyPast. you should be able to follow the links from here.

cbcarolyn
07-09-19, 21:20
re Finchley, and more recent records - EmpireUmpire that started the thread has made other posts on here, and there are is a lot of info on this thread:

https://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/120631-Help-with-the-Desbrow-brothers-family-mystery

cbcarolyn
08-09-19, 10:26
well I think I have found them in 1841 as Desborough, still in Elstow

but the father is not a tailor, an agricultural labourer, so not fitting particularly well:

Name Age
James Desborough 42
Mary Desborough 45
William Desborough 25
Edward Desborough 20
Betley Desborough 20
Ann Desborough 12
Mary Desborough 5

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/BDFHO107_5_6-0538?pid=3320881&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26h%3D3320881%26ss rc%3Dpt%26tid%3D418163%26pid%3D410167371285%26useP UB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=418163&personid=410167371285&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.252963529.1361936068.1567631255-1485122363.1543608453

you can always try the library for free access to ancestry and/or FindmyPast. you should be able to follow the links from here.

I have found 2 further census where they are written as Derby, looks to be them.

He is down as born in Inksworth, Herts - I assume this to be Hinxworth, Herts and also down as Biggleswade, Beds, which is nearest big town.

There is a James with his dob and pob matching, parents John and Eleanor, and a large amount of siblings, Hinxworth/Edworth.

Name: James Disberry
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 1 Mar 1794
Baptism Place: Hinxworth,Hertford,England
Father: John Disberry
Mother: Eleanor
FHL Film Number: 991332

BUT I cannot find this James with a James as a son. He just must have had a James, he had a Mary (1836), his wifes' name, and my guess there must also be another Mary that died. Elstow is so close to Fenlake, the next parish.

There is a rent record of him spelt Desborough, living in a Whitbread property and his son William (also spelt Desborough) in a Duke of Bedford property in Elstow, so name must be right, and census enumerator couldn't spell it.

Not sure if anyone else can find your James and maybe a Mary, in Elstow/Fenlake/Cardington. Not found the marriage either, maybe they moved to Elstow

Linda posted this, but nothing there:


As mentioned in this book - towards the bottom of the 2nd column of the left page. Stated to be in the parish of Cardington

https://archive.org/details/bedfordshirepari19bedf/page/n47

This book is the parish registers of Cardington from 1572 - 1812. However I couldn't find any Desbrow/Desboroughs in it.

https://archive.org/details/bedfordshirepari08bedf/page/n5

see here for some Elstow links:
https://parishmouse.co.uk/134081/elstow-bedfordshire-family-history-guide/

daldrow
09-09-19, 14:42
Carolyn,

Your James Desborough in Elstow is definitely not “my” James Desbrow since dobs and wives’ names were respectively c.1799 and Mary and c.1807 and Ann Grace King.

I know my descent from “my” James via his wife Ann Grace King and eldest son Joseph in complete and verified detail. What I lack is James’ verified origins. There is no verification via baptismal records of James’ census claim that he was born Desbrow in Fenlake in 1808 and thus no consequent detail of his descent.

It occurs to me by way of explanation that if he were born illegitimate (presumably, but not definitely, as son of John D. in Fenlake) his baptism would normally be recorded by custom of the times in the name of his mother. I am trying to follow up that possibility.

cbcarolyn
09-09-19, 16:57
I have only suspicions of James being son of James desborough b 1794. I can't find him. Dates are tight, but your James maybe 1811 not 1808

cbcarolyn
09-09-19, 20:55
My post at #26 would your James parents and his siblings, he would be first born as father is James. He was in London by 1841. As I say dates are a bit tight, I don't think you have anything firm on your James date of birth?

It just seems too much of a coincidence for a Desborough family to be within a mile of your James birthplace

cbcarolyn
10-09-19, 22:53
I cant find one baptism for the family, and there are Bedfordshire records out there, so maybe they were in different church, or not baptised.

So not sure how it can ever be proved, check ever record and maybe someone will pop up unexpectedly!

Been searching Fenlake in Ancestry too, and can see quite a few live in Elstow. Wondering with Samuel Whitbread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Whitbread_(1720%E2%80%931796) and Duke of Bedford big renters that many moved to their properties and got work with them too.

daldrow
11-09-19, 14:36
I don't think you have anything firm on your James date of birth?

I don't have anything firm but I do have an approximate likely birth date.

See 12) of my post #16:
12) According to copy of the Death Certificate for “my” James (which I have) he died on 27th December 1855 aged 48 years so that he would have been born in 1806 or 1807 ...
depending respectively on whether he was born on or after 27th December or not. The likelihood is that he was born before 27th December (and so in 1807).

From 30th March 1851 Census data he was registered as age 43 so that he would have been born in 1807 or 1808. Thus in view of the above he was (definitely) born in 1807 with the likelihood that he was born on or after 30th March.

Overall then on the supposition of accurate data, he was born in 1807 with the likelihood that it was on or after 30th March and before 27th December. (The probability of this latter is about 75% in fact.)

I hope that helps to clarify matters.

daldrow
12-09-19, 13:09
I have spotted a lapse in the reasoning of my previous post (#33)—for what it is worth and for which I apologise

James Desbrow was born in 1807, definitely (not likely) on or after 30th March and likely (not definitely) before 27th December; so almost certainly. This conclusion is subject to the correctness of the official data on which it is based.


Subject to the same propviso I can do slightly better than that based upon his marriage on 10th April 1836 aged 28. From this data by the same reasoning he was born on or after 10th April 1807 and likely before 27th December 1807 with the same probability.

cbcarolyn
12-09-19, 18:31
I guess you are at a brickwall, maybe one day DNA will give you your answer :)

The family in Elstow maybe a connection, cousins and uncle?

Or there is a possibility that his dob is wrong, it has been known for people to declare the wrong age, although it is less likely as it has been consistent with marriage, and whoever registered his death.

cbcarolyn
15-09-19, 16:19
Have you searched the british newspaper archive for Bedfordshire, I see that there are quite a few issues on there. I know the other chap that was posting on here had scoured the papers, but not so sure he did it for Beds as was looking for the children.

You might get lucky with something, I did have a quick look but do not have a sub, couldn't see anything obvious, like a marriage/birth. And I think there were some linked to the people I had found. I visit the library if I need to see articles, having bookmarked them at home!