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thomasalbertedward
17-06-19, 06:24
Hi all

Having no luck at the moment locating George Tibbs and his elusive offspring.

Cannot find a birth date or baptismal record for George that seems to fit.

In 1827, he married Elizabeth Dudman/Dobbin who was born in Wiltshire in 1790.

https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=2241&h=5089429&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=9852


They had 3 or 4 children:

Mary Ann in 1828: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=2162&h=155088414&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=2162

Thomas Samuel in 1831: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=2162&h=155088445&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=2241


and either a William in 1834: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2162&h=5088483&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk316&_phstart=successSource
or then died and a second William was baptised in 1837: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2162&h=5088527&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk317&_phstart=successSource
or the same child who for some reason was baptised twice

The trouble is that I cannot find any evidence of George and the children practically after their births. In the 1841 census Elizabeth Tibbs is in Dorset, with Betty Hamilton who also started her life as an Elizabeth Tibbs before she married Robert Hamilton and had a son Andrew who by 1841 was in America. George Tibbs must be related to Betty somehow, but despite trying to establish the connection, have had no luck thus far. Also with them are Isaac, Emily and George Townsend who were Elizabeth's nephews and niece. https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=4834872&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk325&_phstart=successSource

Elizabeth in 1851 is with another niece, Diana, who married George Gartrell: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=6562358&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk327&_phstart=successSource

And in 1861 is visiting: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8767&h=15963811&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk328&_phstart=successSource

She died in 1869: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1904&h=1878931&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8767

I think this could be daughter Mary Ann Tibbs in 1841: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=4767220&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk330&_phstart=successSource

But apart from that, I cannot find any trace of George and the children or work out where George was originally from - I suspect Dorset, but could be way off track. And no luck thus far finding them emigrating anywhere.

All and any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you :)

Lin Fisher
17-06-19, 11:16
Just has a quick look bur unfortunately I can't view any of the ancestry sources you have put on as don't have Australian Ancestry,

Have managed to find a will for Elizabeth, the index is on ancestry but the executor is a banker.

Also the banns and marriage are there and both are of the county and with parental permission.

Looked for a birth for George and death but nothing jumping out at me,

Will have another look later though

thomasalbertedward
17-06-19, 11:18
Thanks so much for looking and sorry that the links don't work - technology is not my greatest talent

Lin Fisher
17-06-19, 11:57
It's not your fault the links don't work. I only have ancestry.co.uk.

thomasalbertedward
17-06-19, 12:39
thanks :)

I've really hit a brick wall with George Tibbs and family - must not be seeing the forest for the trees as they say

Katarzyna
17-06-19, 16:26
The links do work if you have Ancestry World.
I have searched FMP as well and cannot find anything extra to what you have.
Dorset OPC site is not showing much up either. https://www.opcdorset.org/index.htm although this could be useful for you for other searches if you haven't already used it.

Sylvia C
17-06-19, 17:20
The marriage is also on FreeReg, and can be accessed on ancestry.co.uk ............

records on ancestry do NOT change much whether you join .co.uk, .com. .aus, etc


What does it say on the censuses fro Elizabeth's status?? Married, Widow or Single

Sylvia C
17-06-19, 20:58
I've been checking Elizabeth .........

in 1851, she is shown as born ca 1785, Widow, HEAD, and Farmer of 60 acres. I can't make out the name of the farm). George Gartrell is Manager of the Farm.

It took ages, but I finally found her in the 1841, as Farmer. Betty Hamilton and the others are shown as living independently but in the same residence as Elizabeth, with Betty shown of Independent Means

I find this interesting as George Tibbs seems to have been a labourer according to one birth certificate ............ but the indication is that Elizabeth is a) a widow, and b) has received money from somewhere


I also noticed that Betty Hamilton was shown as born in county, ie in Dorset.

If she was indeed related to George Tibbs, then it is possible (or at least a hint) that George might also have been in Dorset.


I'm wondering whether the marriage between George and Elizabeth broke down, or if there was some accident resulted in the loss of George and the children, and this is how Elizabeth got the money to become a Farmer, whether that was a tenant or owning the land.

Katarzyna
17-06-19, 21:51
She is a widow on the 1841 census too.

cbcarolyn
17-06-19, 23:44
I looked at same as Sylvia, and can't work out how George was a labourer on baptism records, yet Elizabeth is a farmer once widowed. The fact that she has family with her - made me wonder if she had been in a family with a farm.

She is the head in 1841 as well, farm not named in that one, but is in 1851.

I only have .co.uk Ancestry as well - so links don't work for me, have found the same records now.

Was the Mary Ann link at Cerna Abbas?

Sylvia C
18-06-19, 00:00
Carolyn ....... that was the only Mary Ann that I found, but it seemed inconclusive. She was living in a separate part of the house, with no occupation shown for her so hard to tell what relationship she had with the others.

I've tried searching for Tibbs, T*bb*, and *ibbs, as I noticed one correction for another Tibbs from the transcript's Jibbs/Fibbs.

Nothing seems to come up for George or the children.

Emigration or death???? Or change of surname???

cbcarolyn
18-06-19, 00:57
Hi all

Also with them are Isaac, Emily and George Townsend who were Elizabeth's nephews and niece. https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=4834872&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk325&_phstart=successSource

Elizabeth in 1851 is with another niece, Diana, who married George Gartrell: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=6562358&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk327&_phstart=successSource



:)

Diana (I think) is also a Townsend, and has many children a few with Tibbs in the name. So am think her mother must be Georges sister, but am now getting confused on her birthplace, seems to be wilts or berks, clearly something getting lost on census.

liscombe. berks or titcombe, wilts. So maybe George birthplace also.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/DORRG10_2018_2022-0074?pid=9019997&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D9019997%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222109304534%26hid%3D1049654 397698%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi9654%26_phsta rt%3Ddefault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=161314848&personid=222109304534&hintid=1049654397698&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9654&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.193903278.26544818.1560467813-1485122363.1543608453&_gac=1.255670522.1559341834.Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJ Jcf971vORcbAxegIsUnLm88wwgUIe4p0KeZ8z6Aczsq3t2gHQ4 FmANECYaAvSSEALw_wcB

cbcarolyn
18-06-19, 01:00
Carolyn ....... that was the only Mary Ann that I found, but it seemed inconclusive. She was living in a separate part of the house, with no occupation shown for her so hard to tell what relationship she had with the others.

I've tried searching for Tibbs, T*bb*, and *ibbs, as I noticed one correction for another Tibbs from the transcript's Jibbs/Fibbs.

Nothing seems to come up for George or the children.

Emigration or death???? Or change of surname???

yes me too, wonder why we can't find a death for George, parish records maybe patchy.

and odd no trace of any of the children again. I feel emigration!

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 03:32
Thank you :)

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 03:34
The links do work if you have Ancestry World.
I have searched FMP as well and cannot find anything extra to what you have.
Dorset OPC site is not showing much up either. https://www.opcdorset.org/index.htm although this could be useful for you for other searches if you haven't already used it.

Thank you :)

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 04:04
I've been checking Elizabeth .........

in 1851, she is shown as born ca 1785, Widow, HEAD, and Farmer of 60 acres. I can't make out the name of the farm). George Gartrell is Manager of the Farm.

It took ages, but I finally found her in the 1841, as Farmer. Betty Hamilton and the others are shown as living independently but in the same residence as Elizabeth, with Betty shown of Independent Means

I find this interesting as George Tibbs seems to have been a labourer according to one birth certificate ............ but the indication is that Elizabeth is a) a widow, and b) has received money from somewhere


I also noticed that Betty Hamilton was shown as born in county, ie in Dorset.

If she was indeed related to George Tibbs, then it is possible (or at least a hint) that George might also have been in Dorset.


I'm wondering whether the marriage between George and Elizabeth broke down, or if there was some accident resulted in the loss of George and the children, and this is how Elizabeth got the money to become a Farmer, whether that was a tenant or owning the land.

Thanks so much for looking.

We presume that the money/land that Elizabeth eventually came into was from Betty Hamilton since the Dudman family that Elizabeth came from were all pretty poor farm labourers from Wiltshire/Berkshire.

Betty Hamilton was born Elizabeth Tibbs in 1767 to Ann Tibbs and Henry Notley, who weren't married at the time. Henry Notley had an ale house and some land in Longburton, Dorest. They also had twins, James and William Tibbs in 1762. William died as a baby. Ann Tibbs married Henry Notley in 1785. James married Mary Notley, a cousin, in 1793 and had a son Thomas in 1795. Betty Tibbs married Robert Hamilton in 1791 and had a son Andrew in 1804. Thomas Tibbs died in 1819, aged 24. Andrew Hamilton went to America in 1827, aged 23 - and was still there in 1840 when James Tibbs died, as mentioned in James Tibbs' will. - https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61333&h=76939&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG13552&_phstart=successSource. His goods and chattels seem to have been inherited by Betty.

Robert Hamilton had died in 1832. Betty Hamilton died in 1842 and I think that was when Elizabeth Tibbs acquired land etc.

But how that all ties into George Tibbs and where he went with the children I don't know.

There were other Tibbs cousins through the brothers of Betty's mother Ann and none of them are with Betty Hamilton, so you might assume George was also related somehow and working as a labourer on Betty's farm when his children were born.

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 04:21
I've been checking Elizabeth .........

in 1851, she is shown as born ca 1785, Widow, HEAD, and Farmer of 60 acres. I can't make out the name of the farm). George Gartrell is Manager of the Farm.

It took ages, but I finally found her in the 1841, as Farmer. Betty Hamilton and the others are shown as living independently but in the same residence as Elizabeth, with Betty shown of Independent Means

I find this interesting as George Tibbs seems to have been a labourer according to one birth certificate ............ but the indication is that Elizabeth is a) a widow, and b) has received money from somewhere


I also noticed that Betty Hamilton was shown as born in county, ie in Dorset.

If she was indeed related to George Tibbs, then it is possible (or at least a hint) that George might also have been in Dorset.


I'm wondering whether the marriage between George and Elizabeth broke down, or if there was some accident resulted in the loss of George and the children, and this is how Elizabeth got the money to become a Farmer, whether that was a tenant or owning the land.

Betty Hamilton was born Elizabeth Tibbs on 8 June 1767 in Longburton Dorset.

Would there be some mention of the deaths of George and the children in the newspapers at the time, if that's what happened? :)

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 04:23
Carolyn ....... that was the only Mary Ann that I found, but it seemed inconclusive. She was living in a separate part of the house, with no occupation shown for her so hard to tell what relationship she had with the others.

I've tried searching for Tibbs, T*bb*, and *ibbs, as I noticed one correction for another Tibbs from the transcript's Jibbs/Fibbs.

Nothing seems to come up for George or the children.

Emigration or death???? Or change of surname???

Thanks for the ideas :)

I've looked for emigration records - no luck thus far.

A change of name is an interesting idea.

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 04:25
Diana (I think) is also a Townsend, and has many children a few with Tibbs in the name. So am think her mother must be Georges sister, but am now getting confused on her birthplace, seems to be wilts or berks, clearly something getting lost on census.

liscombe. berks or titcombe, wilts. So maybe George birthplace also.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/DORRG10_2018_2022-0074?pid=9019997&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26h%3D9019997%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222109304534%26hid%3D1049654 397698%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi9654%26_phsta rt%3Ddefault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=161314848&personid=222109304534&hintid=1049654397698&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9654&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.193903278.26544818.1560467813-1485122363.1543608453&_gac=1.255670522.1559341834.Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJ Jcf971vORcbAxegIsUnLm88wwgUIe4p0KeZ8z6Aczsq3t2gHQ4 FmANECYaAvSSEALw_wcB

Diana was the daughter of Elizabeth Tibbs' sister Hannah. She was born in Tidcombe Wiltshire in 1821. :)

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 05:05
There was intermarriage between the Notleys and the Dunmans and the Tibbs families in both Berkshire/Wiltshire and Dorset.

Is it possible that George wasn't originally from Dorset? :)

ozgirl
18-06-19, 08:46
I also have UK Ancestry, but have found that if you copy the link from au Ancestry, paste it in the address bar and change the com.au to co.uk then enter it, you will get the record.

cbcarolyn
18-06-19, 08:49
I also have UK Ancestry, but have found that if you copy the link from au Ancestry, paste it in the address bar and change the com.au to co.uk then enter it, you will get the record.

i tried that and was having no luck will try again :)

cbcarolyn
18-06-19, 09:52
Thanks so much for looking.

We presume that the money/land that Elizabeth eventually came into was from Betty Hamilton since the Dudman family that Elizabeth came from were all pretty poor farm labourers from Wiltshire/Berkshire.

Betty Hamilton was born Elizabeth Tibbs in 1767 to Ann Tibbs and Henry Notley, who weren't married at the time. Henry Notley had an ale house and some land in Longburton, Dorest. They also had twins, James and William Tibbs in 1762. William died as a baby. Ann Tibbs married Henry Notley in 1785. James married Mary Notley, a cousin, in 1793 and had a son Thomas in 1795. Betty Tibbs married Robert Hamilton in 1791 and had a son Andrew in 1804. Thomas Tibbs died in 1819, aged 24. Andrew Hamilton went to America in 1827, aged 23 - and was still there in 1840 when James Tibbs died, as mentioned in James Tibbs' will. - https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61333&h=76939&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG13552&_phstart=successSource. His goods and chattels seem to have been inherited by Betty.

Robert Hamilton had died in 1832. Betty Hamilton died in 1842 and I think that was when Elizabeth Tibbs acquired land etc.

But how that all ties into George Tibbs and where he went with the children I don't know.

There were other Tibbs cousins through the brothers of Betty's mother Ann and none of them are with Betty Hamilton, so you might assume George was also related somehow and working as a labourer on Betty's farm when his children were born.

Is the will the key, and is when they acquired the farm? although doesn't sort out the link between Betty and Elizabeth, uk link here.

NB it says his wife is Elizabeth and not Mary
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61333&h=76939&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG13552&_phstart=successSource

and also mentions William Notley, Alweston Farm, Folke

cbcarolyn
18-06-19, 10:22
Have you looked through Henry Notleys will?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61333/47286_p5_18reg_161_1_tcl?pid=77396&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D61333%26h%3D77396%26tid %3D161314848%26pid%3D222109352521%26usePUB%3Dtrue% 26_phsrc%3DfVi9720%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222109352521&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9720&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.231732636.26544818.1560467813-1485122363.1543608453&_gac=1.20818634.1559341834.Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJJ cf971vORcbAxegIsUnLm88wwgUIe4p0KeZ8z6Aczsq3t2gHQ4F mANECYaAvSSEALw_wcB#?imageId=47286_p5_18reg_161_2_ tcl

Looks like Betty is Anns daughter not his, but not sure much else in there, but looks like it is the start of the money trail. Can't see any link to George still

ozgirl
18-06-19, 10:36
Mary Tibbs, wife of James died in Bishops Caundle in June 1820. It looks like James remarried to Elizabeth Dedman in Somerset, Milburne Port in 1824. It is quite likely that the Elizabeth referred to in the will is this one. This would explain why she was living with Elizabeth Hamilton, her sister in law. If this is so, then they (at the moment) have no links with George.

There is also the death in Bishops Caundle in 1839 of Elizabeth Tibbs, aged 40, who is the right age to be George's wife. Maybe George moved on after his wife's death - I can find no deaths for a George at the moment.

(sorry, am dashing out, have no time to do links)

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 11:04
Is the will the key, and is when they acquired the farm? although doesn't sort out the link between Betty and Elizabeth, uk link here.

NB it says his wife is Elizabeth and not Mary
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61333&h=76939&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=PyG13552&_phstart=successSource

and also mentions William Notley, Alweston Farm, Folke

Mary Notley was James Tibbs' first wife and William Notley was I think her nephew :)

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 11:14
Have you looked through Henry Notleys will?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61333/47286_p5_18reg_161_1_tcl?pid=77396&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D61333%26h%3D77396%26tid %3D161314848%26pid%3D222109352521%26usePUB%3Dtrue% 26_phsrc%3DfVi9720%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222109352521&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9720&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.231732636.26544818.1560467813-1485122363.1543608453&_gac=1.20818634.1559341834.Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJJ cf971vORcbAxegIsUnLm88wwgUIe4p0KeZ8z6Aczsq3t2gHQ4F mANECYaAvSSEALw_wcB#?imageId=47286_p5_18reg_161_2_ tcl

Looks like Betty is Anns daughter not his, but not sure much else in there, but looks like it is the start of the money trail. Can't see any link to George still

Thank you :), yes definitely the start of the money trail -

Henry Notley is named as the father of James and William Tibbs on their baptism record - I wonder if he also fathered Betty?

thomasalbertedward
18-06-19, 12:09
Mary Tibbs, wife of James died in Bishops Caundle in June 1820. It looks like James remarried to Elizabeth Dedman in Somerset, Milburne Port in 1824. It is quite likely that the Elizabeth referred to in the will is this one. This would explain why she was living with Elizabeth Hamilton, her sister in law. If this is so, then they (at the moment) have no links with George.

There is also the death in Bishops Caundle in 1839 of Elizabeth Tibbs, aged 40, who is the right age to be George's wife. Maybe George moved on after his wife's death - I can find no deaths for a George at the moment.

(sorry, am dashing out, have no time to do links)

Thanks for looking :) So many Elizabeths and Annes to unravel

The Elizabeth Tibbs who was living with Betty Hamilton in 1841 is Elizabeth Dudman from Great Bedwyn Wiltshire -born in 1790 - as per the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census records and her burial record in 1869. She was also the aunt of Isaac, Emily and George Townsend who were with her in 1841 and Diana Townsend who married George Gartrell and went on to manage the farm.

The Elizabeth Tibbs who died in 1837 in Bishops Caundle aged 40 was I think Elizabeth Smith who married Henry Tibbs in 1816. :)

ozgirl
18-06-19, 13:09
Would there be some mention of the deaths of George and the children in the newspapers at the time, if that's what happened? :)

I've checked the BNA and there are no mentions of any George or Elizabeth Tibbs around that time.

cbcarolyn
18-06-19, 17:56
Thank you :), yes definitely the start of the money trail -

Henry Notley is named as the father of James and William Tibbs on their baptism record - I wonder if he also fathered Betty?

in the will he says 'my wife's daughter' so I am assuming not. Not that any of this helps with George!

I just thought there maybe a few more wills about that tie up some people.

Did Betty have one?

thomasalbertedward
19-06-19, 12:07
in the will he says 'my wife's daughter' so I am assuming not. Not that any of this helps with George!

I just thought there maybe a few more wills about that tie up some people.

Did Betty have one?

I can't find a will for Betty which seems a little odd.

It would help a bit if we knew whether George was 30 years older than Elizabeth or 10 years younger :)

thomasalbertedward
21-06-19, 08:23
Hi all - been a busy day here in OZ

Searching for inspiration on "The Genealogist" site I came across a George Tibbs on the 1841 census - in London, born in 1791 of independent means. However I don't have a subscription to the site and I can't seem to track him down on ancestry.

Any help would be very gratefully accepted

Thanks :)

Sussex Maid
21-06-19, 12:19
Could this be the one you mean - transcribed as Lobbs on Ancestry - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/MDXHO107_731_732-0505/8075004?

thomasalbertedward
21-06-19, 12:29
Could this be the one you mean - transcribed as Lobbs on Ancestry - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/MDXHO107_731_732-0505/8075004?

Yes! thank you so much :)

cbcarolyn
21-06-19, 23:04
That was a good find - but guess not your man :( Makes you wonder if he is there somewhere just badly written. The 1841 is harder as there is no county born in, unless it is the one they are living in.

thomasalbertedward
22-06-19, 03:24
That was a good find - but guess not your man :( Makes you wonder if he is there somewhere just badly written. The 1841 is harder as there is no county born in, unless it is the one they are living in.

No, I don't think he's my man - still looking at him though, and with names being mistranscribed makes me wonder where the children are in 1841?

The most logical thing would be if George was an illegitimate son of James or Betty Tibbs - but no indication of that either thus far :(

cbcarolyn
22-06-19, 09:21
there is a william on his own here, is that a dubbins as head? can't make out the 'family' at all!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/DORHO107_280_280-0101?pid=1508665&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26h%3D1508665%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222109247788%26usePUB%3Dtrue %26_phsrc%3DfVi9871%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222109247788&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9871&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.153141360.99405826.1560984980-1485122363.1543608453&_gac=1.16184644.1559341834.Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJJ cf971vORcbAxegIsUnLm88wwgUIe4p0KeZ8z6Aczsq3t2gHQ4F mANECYaAvSSEALw_wcB

cbcarolyn
22-06-19, 09:37
No, I don't think he's my man - still looking at him though, and with names being mistranscribed makes me wonder where the children are in 1841?

The most logical thing would be if George was an illegitimate son of James or Betty Tibbs - but no indication of that either thus far :(

the dates would make sense, although Dinah is described as a niece.

do you have anything on Elizabeths parents?

thomasalbertedward
22-06-19, 11:20
the dates would make sense, although Dinah is described as a niece.

do you have anything on Elizabeths parents?

Sorry, I should have been more specific - if George Tibbs who married Elizabeth Dudman in 1827, was an illegitimate child of Betty Tibbs, born before she married Robert Hamilton, it would make sense because then Elizabeth Tibbs and Betty Hamilton would be daughter- and mother-in-law - but I don't think that's the case.


Dinah is the daughter of James Townsend and Hannah Dudman, Elizabeth Dudman's sister and her parents were William and Elizabeth Dudman - this is her baptism https://www.ancestry.com.au/interactive/61187/45582_263021009496_1755-00008?pid=954308&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D61187%26h%3D954308%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Dzqk532%26 _phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk532&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.218842649.1061319431.1561172327-175602600.1560436895&_gac=1.207757606.1560436895.EAIaIQobChMIvN7ur9jm4g IVwZWPCh26GwclEAAYASAAEgKIT_D_BwE

thomasalbertedward
22-06-19, 11:26
there is a william on his own here, is that a dubbins as head? can't make out the 'family' at all!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/DORHO107_280_280-0101?pid=1508665&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8978%26h%3D1508665%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222109247788%26usePUB%3Dtrue %26_phsrc%3DfVi9871%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222109247788&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9871&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.153141360.99405826.1560984980-1485122363.1543608453&_gac=1.16184644.1559341834.Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJJ cf971vORcbAxegIsUnLm88wwgUIe4p0KeZ8z6Aczsq3t2gHQ4F mANECYaAvSSEALw_wcB

I think that William is this one: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2162&h=3483532&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk540&_phstart=successSource

That does look like a Dubbins as head though - it's been transcribed as Matilda Atkins :)

Yes, it is Matilda Atkins - she lived until after the 1861 census and seems to have boarded orphaned/illegitimate children.

Interesting find :)

ozgirl
22-06-19, 18:50
I thought that George married Elizabeth Dubbins in 1827. James married Elizabeth Dedman (Dudman) in 1824. They must be 2 different Elizabeth's.

cbcarolyn
22-06-19, 20:20
Sorry, I should have been more specific - if George Tibbs who married Elizabeth Dudman in 1827, was an illegitimate child of Betty Tibbs, born before she married Robert Hamilton, it would make sense because then Elizabeth Tibbs and Betty Hamilton would be daughter- and mother-in-law - but I don't think that's the case.


Dinah is the daughter of James Townsend and Hannah Dudman, Elizabeth Dudman's sister and her parents were William and Elizabeth Dudman - this is her baptism https://www.ancestry.com.au/interactive/61187/45582_263021009496_1755-00008?pid=954308&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D61187%26h%3D954308%26ti d%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Dzqk532%26 _phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk532&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.218842649.1061319431.1561172327-175602600.1560436895&_gac=1.207757606.1560436895.EAIaIQobChMIvN7ur9jm4g IVwZWPCh26GwclEAAYASAAEgKIT_D_BwE
I had assumed Dinah/Diana was a Tibbs as she has Tibbs in her childrens names, so am now confused.

I hadn't looked at any of her records.

thomasalbertedward
23-06-19, 02:07
I had assumed Dinah/Diana was a Tibbs as she has Tibbs in her childrens names, so am now confused.

I hadn't looked at any of her records.

I don't blame you for being confused - they are an utterly baffling mob and very difficult to sort out. Your help has been really great, so thank you again :)

Dinah/Diana was born Diana Townsend in Tidcombe Wiltshire in 1821. Her parents were James Townsend and Hannah Dudman and Hannah was the younger sister of Elizabeth Dudman who became Elizabeth Tibbs when she married George Tibbs in 1827. Diana married George Gartrell in Sherborne Dorset in 1842: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2241&h=8226481&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk749&_phstart=successSource. They had at least 12 children and called 2 of them Joseph Tibbs Gartrell and Elizabeth Tibbs Gartrell. :)

thomasalbertedward
23-06-19, 02:35
I thought that George married Elizabeth Dubbins in 1827. James married Elizabeth Dedman (Dudman) in 1824. They must be 2 different Elizabeth's.

Thank you for looking :)

Yes, 2 different Elizabeths. James Tibbs - who was the brother of Betty Tibbs who married Robert Hamilton - marred Elizabeth Dudman as his second wife in Somerset in 1824. They were still married when he died in Dorset in 1840 aged 77 and she is mentioned in his will.

The second Elizabeth Dudman married George Tibbs in Dorset in 1827 and she is the one living with Betty Hamilton in Sherborne Dorset in 1841 - when George and the children have mysteriously vanished


However the 2 Elizabeth Dudmans must be related - their names variously appear as Dedman, Dudman and Dobbins, but they are all the one family - and the marriage of James Tibbs and the first Elizabeth Dudman must have been how the second Elizabeth Dudman met George.


Thanks again for your help.

thomasalbertedward
23-06-19, 05:43
MYSTERY SOLVED and I have been so dense!

Thank you and huge applause to everyone who has helped me with the Tibbs family - without your help I wouldn't have seen it from a different perspective.

Elizabeth Tibbs - a widow in 1841, living with Betty Hamilton in Dorset, born in Great Bedwyn Wiltshire in 1790, sister of Hannah Dudman and aunt of all the Townsends - DIDN'T marry George Tibbs. She married James Tibbs, the brother of Betty Hamilton, as his second wife in 1824. When they got married, she for some reason was living in Somerset and she is the wife Elizabeth named in his will - and of course, the land went to her after Betty Hamilton died in 1842, because she was the widow of her brother. Elizabeth and James Tibbs had no children and his only son Thomas - from his first marriage to Mary Notley - had died unmarried aged 24 in 1819.

The marriage of George Tibbs and the other Elizabeth Dudman in 1827 - I think she is the Elizabeth Tibbs who dies aged 40 in 1837 in Bishops Caundle. She was born in 1797 and is a niece of the first Elizabeth - she was probably visiting her aunt Elizabeth and met George Tibbs - that all makes sense now.

Also gives me some ideas of extended family and where to look for the children of the marriage after 1840.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP :) :) :)

cbcarolyn
23-06-19, 10:18
That makes sense, the Dudman family looks rather huge, I started looking yesterday before bed, maybe they are hiding with them!

so this should now read when she married James? and the Tibbs was a nod to the family as they had no living children with the name maybe?


Dinah/Diana was born Diana Townsend in Tidcombe Wiltshire in 1821. Her parents were James Townsend and Hannah Dudman and Hannah was the younger sister of Elizabeth Dudman who became Elizabeth Tibbs when she married George Tibbs in 1827. Diana married George Gartrell in Sherborne Dorset in 1842: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-b...=successSource (https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2241&h=8226481&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zqk749&_phstart=successSource). They had at least 12 children and called 2 of them Joseph Tibbs Gartrell and Elizabeth Tibbs Gartrell.

thomasalbertedward
23-06-19, 10:24
That makes sense, the Dudman family looks rather huge, I started looking yesterday before bed, maybe they are hiding with them!

so this should now read when she married James? and the Tibbs was a nod to the family as they had no living children with the name maybe?

Yes, definitely when she married James - thank you :) And the Tibbs would certainly have been a nod to the name being passed on

The Dudman family is huge - and somehow related to the Dobbins/Dubbens who lived in Dorset - so it's a big clan to look through :)