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rankpin
03-06-19, 11:27
I'm looking for some help with the above person from someone who would know a bit more about Scottish research than me. My 3x great grandfather (Leslie Rankin) married the Daughter of James Jack in 1848 in Garvagh, County Londonderry, Ireland, she was called Margaret. A newspaper posting recording the marriage states that Margaret was the daughter of James Jack Esquire of Glasgow. On the marriage certificate it states James Jack was a 'steward' and that the daughters address was 'Ballintemple' a townland near Garvagh in Ireland. Important to note that Margaret died in 1867 aged 44, making her birth date somewhere between 1822 and 1823.

I'm just struggling to locate James Jack, as there are so many people with that name in Scottish census returns. I don't think James moved to Ireland at all because there are no death records for him here.

Anybody that can add a little clarity to my research would be most welcome.

Thank you.

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 12:08
I think this your Margaret’s baptism on Scotland’s People.

20107

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 12:16
These are all the baptisms to James JACK and Ann BOWMAN. Hopefully one of them will have had a post 1855 marriage which would give you more details about the parents.

Surname
JACK
Forename
JAMES
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR4372 (FR4372)
Gender
M
Date
20/12/1830
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
330 64
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
THOMAS
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR3881 (FR3881)
Gender
M
Date
23/08/1824
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
310 435
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
ANN
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR4033 (FR4033)
Gender
F
Date
02/07/1826
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
320 159
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
ELIZABETH
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR4177 (FR4177)
Gender
F
Date
20/08/1828
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
320 445
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
JANET
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR5100 (FR5100)
Gender
F
Date
21/12/1837
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
350 137
Parish

Surname
JACK
Forename
JEAN
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR4622 (FR4622)
Gender
F
Date
16/08/1833
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
330 562
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
MARGARET
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR3626 (FR3626)
Gender
F
Date
14/09/1821
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
300 240
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
MARION
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR2575 (FR2575)
Gender
F
Date
21/10/1819
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
220 255
Parish
Glasgow

Surname
JACK
Forename
CECILIA
Parents/ Other Details
JAMES JACK/ANN BOWMAN FR4858 (FR4858)
Gender
F
Date
15/10/1835
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
340 245
Parish
Glasgow

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 12:20
This is James and Ann’s marriage entry. Barony is a parish in Glasgow.

Surname JACK
Forename JAMES
Spouse Name ANN BOWMAN /FR1972 (FR1972)
Date 29/01/1819
Parish Number 622/ Ref 70 474
Parish Barony

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 12:25
From 1841 census transcription on ancestry. Note Cecilia is given as Cecily. I used her name to search as it’s not that common. Not sure why the address shown on James snr’s entry is Cellar. Cecily’s says Robertson Lane. You would need to purchase the original from SP site to be sure what that says.

20108

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 12:31
There are no entries for that family in 1851 Scotland census. As Margaret married in 1848 in Ireland, I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole family moved over there sometime 1841-1848.

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 12:51
I might be wrong about that. Here’s a death for an Ann JACK or BOWMAN in another parish in Glasgow City. You can add a woman's maiden surname in SP death searches. Also bear in mind that ages in 1841 can be 5-10 years out.

Surname
JACK
Forename
ANN
Age at death
76
Mother's Maiden Name
CAMPBELL
Year
1863
Ref
644/9 934
RD Name
Tradeston

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 13:07
Assuming that death is your Ann this is her baptism.

Surname
BOWMAN
Forename
ANN
Parents/ Other Details
WILLIAM BOWMAN/MARY CAMPBELL FR1728 (FR1728)
Gender
F
Date
19/11/1795
Parish Number
644/1
Ref
190 251
Parish
Glasgow

rankpin
03-06-19, 13:25
You see I don't think that's the correct James Jack because on his marriage cert, it says he was a carter. The profession of carter is I believe someone who transports goods by horse drawn cart ? Unless its possible someone with that occupation can have the title of 'esquire' ?

Katarzyna
03-06-19, 13:31
what about this 1851 census
Record Transcription:
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
44, Maxwell Street, St Enochs,Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

James Jack Head Married Male 65 1786 Carter Lanarkshire, Scotland
Ann Jack Wife Married Female 51 1800 Housekeeper Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 13:45
Well done Kat, I didn’t find that one. Should have tried FMP instead LOL

I see he’s ten years older than expected in 1851. 1841 has him as 1796.
A birth place of Lesmahagow helps a lot.

Katarzyna
03-06-19, 13:58
Ancestry is playing me up at the moment - I put the exact details from your transcript in ancestry and it couldn't find that one on the 1841 :confused: It's happening a lot.

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 14:00
These are the only two Lesmahagow baptisms that it could be. Given that the couple only baptised one son and he was called Thomas, I would be inclined to go with the first one and assume the age on the 1851 census transcription is wrong. This one is a very good match for the person b.c.1796 in the 1841 census.

Surname
JACK
Forename
JAMES
Parents/ Other Details
THOMAS JACK/MARGARET FORREST FR377 (FR377)
Gender
M
Date
08/06/1794
Parish Number
649/
Ref
20 97
Parish
Lesmahagow

Surname
JACK
Forename
JAMES
Parents/ Other Details
THOMAS JACK/ISOBELL LANG FR358 (FR358)
Gender
M
Date
02/06/1788
Parish Number
649/
Ref
20 59
Parish
Lesmahagow

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 14:07
OOOOHHH! You could be on to a winner here. I think you should spend the credits on this death as it’s 1855, the golden year when civil registration started in Scotland. You get much more information than at any time since and it should even give you where he is buried. Although it is registered in Carstsirs, he may we’ll have died on the road while at work with his cart. Perhaps on his way through to Edinburgh. Even if you only manage to eliminate him it will be worth the 6 credits.

Surname
JACK
Forename
JAMES
Age at death
52
Mother's Maiden Name
FORREST
Year
1855
Ref
633/ 7
RD Name
Carstairs

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 14:08
Ancestry is playing me up at the moment - I put the exact details from your transcript in ancestry and it couldn't find that one on the 1841 :confused: It's happening a lot.


It’s being a right pain lately that’s true.

rankpin
03-06-19, 14:20
Thanks for all of this guys, really appreciated. Can a carter have the title of esquire though ? Extra information, Margaret Rankin (Jack) died in Garvagh on 03/06/1867. Are you confident that this is the correct James Jack ?

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 14:47
Had some spare credits. The 1855 death sadly is not him but the 1863 one for Ann JACK is his wife. It tells you Cecelia was the informant and her father was already deceased. Cecelia’s surname is now KERR and she married 1856 so you could check that certificate and see if her father was alive or not. That should narrow it down a bit more.
The Mitchell Library in Glasgow would be able to tell you more about Ann as she died in the Govan Poor House. There should be admission records and if you are lucky it might say where she was buried. They should also be able to find out which grave yard she is in from the lair books as they can check the nearest ones for you. There will be charges for the research of course but you can ask for an estimate. Hopefully despite her dying in the Poor House, she was in there for medical care and not totally destitute. Then there would be a chance of a family grave and if they find her, they should also find her husband.

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 14:50
Courtesy of ScotlandsPeople

20109

rankpin
03-06-19, 14:54
The forum wont let me view any of your attachments. Any idea why ?

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 15:15
Sorry, I don’t know why as I attached them in the usual way. Maybe an admin can help.

Caroline
03-06-19, 15:45
The forum wont let me view any of your attachments. Any idea why ?

There are currently limits as to what a new member can and cannot do, but actually I can't see the second attachment either ... I will have a look..

If i click on the link I can see it, but I am not sure that Scotland's people allow the copying of their images?

Caroline
03-06-19, 15:49
There are currently limits as to what a new member can and cannot do, but actually I can't see the second attachment either ... I will have a look..

If i click on the link I can see it, but I am not sure that Scotland's people allow the copying of their images?

UPDATE: I have had a look and the Copyright policy there is:

All content available on this website

Visitors to this website are granted permission to access this material, to download and copy such material onto electronic, magnetic, optical or similar storage media and to make printed copies of any such downloaded material, provided that such activities and copies are for non-commercial private study and research only.
The only exception to this are record agents working on behalf of clients who may pass content on to their client who in turn is bound by these terms and conditions.

Putting them here is a grey area methinks? It goes on to allow max 20 images per website.

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/copyright

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 15:57
There was a recent statement from SP further clarifying private research use of posting their certs and the upshot is it’s perfectly ok for the likes of forum use like on here etc. They would prefer you to cut off the other certs in the image that are not the one you are wanting to show - as I have done above, the bottom two on the page as missing and also to credit where the image comes from. Their copyright is in the tracings at the top of the image under the name and very number.
No idea why the image will not come up in my post as I downloaded it to my Photos album on the phone and then edited out the bottom two and resaved. Hold till I check what format the file is.

Katarzyna
03-06-19, 16:00
Esquire - a polite title appended to a man's name when no other title is used, typically in the address of a letter or other documents.

What were the occupations of Margaret's husband Leslie and that of his father on the marriage certificate?

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 16:00
This one’s definitely a jpeg. Does that show for everyone now?

20110

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 16:03
Esquire - a polite title appended to a man's name when no other title is used, typically in the address of a letter or other documents.

What were the occupations of Margaret's husband Leslie and that of his father on the marriage certificate?

Ann’s death cert says James was [_?] store keeper and carter. I can’t make out the first word. Perhaps he was highly regarded in the community or thought he was more than plain Mr being a businessman?

Maybe there’s something in the Glasgow Trade Directories?

Katarzyna
03-06-19, 16:14
Record Transcription:
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Barony, Glasgow Central, Lanarkshire, Scotland


First name(s) Ann
Last name Jack
Relationship Inmate
Marital status Widow
Sex Female
Age 74
Birth year 1787
Occupation Dom Serv
Birth town Glasgow
Birth town as transcribed GLASGOW
Birth county Lanarkshire

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 16:16
She must have gone out to work or taken a live in position to support herself after she was bereaved.

Janet in Yorkshire
03-06-19, 17:08
in the opening post there is reference to James Jack, "steward". Steward could have been referring to a land steward, bailiff - have a look to see what estates/large farms there were in the relevant area and then see if you can find any appropriate estate records.

Jay

Caroline
03-06-19, 19:02
There was a recent statement from SP further clarifying private research use of posting their certs and the upshot is it’s perfectly ok for the likes of forum use like on here etc. They would prefer you to cut off the other certs in the image that are not the one you are wanting to show - as I have done above, the bottom two on the page as missing and also to credit where the image comes from. Their copyright is in the tracings at the top of the image under the name and very number.
No idea why the image will not come up in my post as I downloaded it to my Photos album on the phone and then edited out the bottom two and resaved. Hold till I check what format the file is.

That's good to know. :)

GallowayLass
03-06-19, 20:06
Have worked out what the first word is for Ann’s husband’s occupation. It says “bonded”. He was a Bonded Storekeeper and Carter so he handled the likes of alcohol and tobacco etc. that had customs duties on them. Not just an ordinary shop keeper then. Surely he must have had money to have purchased his own family lair for burials?

rankpin
03-06-19, 23:09
Leslie Rankin was a House Carpenter and his Father James Rankin was an architect.

For reference, here's the newspaper announcement from Leslie Rankin's local newspaper in County Londonderry-
Coleraine Chronicle, 22 Sept.1849: Married- At Garvagh, county Derry, on the 8th inst., by the Rev, Mitchell Smyth, Mr. Leslie Rankin, builder, to Margaret, second daughter of James Jack, Esq., Glasgow.

GallowayLass
04-06-19, 00:52
That fits with the baptisms in post #3. Marion was the eldest girl, then Margaret.

kylejustin
04-06-19, 01:06
Suppose margaret could have said he was an esquire? Maybe she didn't know his actual occupation or was bigging him up to impress?

rankpin
04-06-19, 01:30
It’s a little confusing, he seems like the correct person. However, on the marriage cert for Leslie and Margaret it says James jack was a steward, that usually means land steward or maybe ship steward.

A land steward would match up with the title of esquire. I’m also curious as to how Margaret ended up in Ireland, I can’t tell if she came with family or on her own accord ?

GallowayLass
04-06-19, 01:49
Does the parish register still exist? Quite often the bride’s father was one of the witnesses.

rankpin
04-06-19, 02:42
Yes, it does still exist, both bride and groom signed their own names. The witnesses were a Robert Robertson and a John someone, cant decipher the second name, but definitely not Jack.

Katarzyna
04-06-19, 09:06
Can you put up a screenshot of the parish record?

Janet in Yorkshire
04-06-19, 10:12
It’s a little confusing, he seems like the correct person. However, on the marriage cert for Leslie and Margaret it says James jack was a steward, that usually means land steward or maybe ship steward.

A land steward would match up with the title of esquire. I’m also curious as to how Margaret ended up in Ireland, I can’t tell if she came with family or on her own accord ?

See my post #29
IF James Jack was a land steward, in the employ of a wealthy Scottish landowner, then it is quite possible that the same land owner also had property in Ireland, to which his steward travelled from time to time. This COULD have been how his daughter met and married someone from Ireland.
At that time Ireland was part of the UK; many land/property links between Scotland and Ulster, of which Co Londonderry was a part.

Jay

Olde Crone Holden
04-06-19, 10:22
Esq is merely a written honorific, used where the writer does not know the social/professional standing of the person and does not wish to give offence. Exactly what a newspaper might do. It doesn't have any other significance in that situation.

OC

rankpin
04-06-19, 12:45
The posting permissions section of my profile says i'm not allowed to post attachments. I can email the screenshot to you guys if you send me your email address via private message ? Thanks, again.

rankpin
05-06-19, 05:08
https://paste.pics/d1d7d75461e9b9542e46b9d799549e4f

Here is the link to the marriage certificate. Hopefully you guys can access it.

GallowayLass
05-06-19, 16:20
https://paste.pics/d1d7d75461e9b9542e46b9d799549e4f

Here is the link to the marriage certificate. Hopefully you guys can access it.

Yes, I can see it.

rankpin
07-06-19, 02:24
Yes, I can see it.

That's great, you have all been really helpful. On the marriage certificate, Margaret has a home address of Ballintemple which is near Garvagh, Co. Londonderry, maybe she was staying with a relative or maybe her Father was over temporarily to check up on things. Do you think the James Jack who married Ann Bowman is the correct man ?

Thanks again.

Katarzyna
07-06-19, 09:46
There is this marriage for another Jack in Strabane, Derry.
Do you think it might be worth looking at this one?
Name MARIANNE JACK
Date of Event 1847
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Strabane
Returns Year 1847
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 10
Returns Page No 271

PRONI has these:
M/1847/Z1/2281/1/14 Mary Jack to McShea 17th June 1847 Strabane
also:
M/1848/J1/939/1/52 Mary Jack to McFerran 8th November 1848 Carrickfergus



I don't think you can assume you have the right James Jack yet - as Jay says . Steward or Carter???

These marriages are not near Margaret's in Londonderry. I think you need to search Scotlands People to see if you can find any of her siblings marriages there first to rule them out.

GallowayLass
07-06-19, 10:12
Seems to be. When I searched for baptisms for a Margaret Jack in Lanarkshire 1820-1825 with a father called James, there was only one match. I chose Lanarkshire rather than just Glasgow City in case she had been born outwith the then city boundary. There were no entries at all for other Presbyterian churches nor for Roman Catholic ones. Not that she would likely have been RC given the marriage rites being United Church of England and Ireland but I thought I’d better double check.
Granted not all other Presbyterian church records have survived/been deposited as the should have been but assuming that the family were the Established Church ie. Church of Scotland, you can be as certain as it’s possible to be that your Margaret’s parents were James Jack and Ann Bowman.
Did you look at Cecilia’s 1856 marriage to see if her father was alive or dead? That cert will also give an occupation for her father and name her mother. The bride’s address will hopefully be the family home. Check out the witnesses as well in case they prove to be significant later.

GallowayLass
07-06-19, 10:20
Check out the Marianne marriage that Kat found in post #45. It could be the eldest daughter Marion baptised 1819 from the list in post #3.
Let us know if that makes things clearer or not.

GallowayLass
07-06-19, 10:37
I have checked ancestry census transcription for 1841 for whole of Scotland and I haven’t found a James Jack of any age whose occupation is steward, land*, bail* (bailiff/baillie etc.) or factor.

rankpin
07-06-19, 10:55
I have checked ancestry census transcription for 1841 for whole of Scotland and I haven’t found a James Jack of any age whose occupation is steward, land*, bail* (bailiff/baillie etc.) or factor.

That’s interesting, it’s just so frustrating that he is such a mystery. I already checked the marriages for other jacks born in Ireland and their father is not James jack. I will go onto SP and see what I can find out.

GallowayLass
07-06-19, 11:29
I checked for 1855 marriages of Jack both m/f in Glasgow City and the only two that had forenames that match with the baptism list in post #3 are these two. It might be something or nothing but worth checking to see father’s details.
There are no deaths in 1855 to fit the James Jack that I think he is.
I have a sinking feeling that if we have the correct James, he died between 1851 and 1854 so no certificate available.

Surname
JACK
Forename
JANET
Spouse Surname
DOWNIE
Spouse Forename
WILLIAM
Year
1855
Ref
644/2 418
RD Name
High Church

Surname
JACK
Forename
JANET
Spouse Surname
TAYLOR
Spouse Forename
ARCHIBALD
Year
1855
Ref
644/1 381
RD Name
Glasgow Central District

GallowayLass
07-06-19, 11:39
Try this death too. Only match for a Thomas born 1824 +/-2 in Lanarkshire.

Beyond that, I have to admit, I’m stumped for more ideas.

Surname JACK
Forename THOMAS
Age at death 78
Mother's Maiden Name
Year 1901
Ref 560/ 36
RD Name Cathcart (Lanark)

rankpin
06-09-19, 03:26
https://paste.pics/a1f0b1cf9bb5cc99de030b0d2b3ac730

Hi again everybody.

I have found the time to do a bit of research into the Jack Family and i have posted a link containing the marriage certificate of Cecilia Jack, it says the Registration district is Calton which is in Glasgow. Her Father, James Jack is deceased at the time of marriage (19th May 1856). So he has died somewhere between 1848 and 1856. I hope this information helps someone help me.

Thanks again.