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LorraineK
01-06-19, 19:52
Good afternoon all

This is a story of mystery and intrigue - another one!
Please help find Claude Henry Uhthoff born 1897 in the 1901 census or could have been sent abroad to live on the continent or to America

Horace Thrasher (later known as Horace Courtenay) was baptised with his cousin Violet Jezard in 1896 while living at 133 Finborough Road with their grandmother Priscilla Thrasher (maiden name Pope) but now known as Priscilla Jezard.

Both Horace and Violet have false parents on their birth certificates and baptisms and are baptised outside of their parish.

Priscilla bought 133 Finborough Road in 1895 at auction and is renting apartments as Mrs May Jezard.

I wanted to try and find further Thrasher/Jezard/Courtenay children living in Finborough Road where Violet had been born or Archel Road where Horace had been born.

Instead I found another baby Claude Henry Uhthoff who had been born at 150 Finborough Road and baptised at the same church as Horace and Violet when living at 133 Finborough Road.

Violet is born in 1890 but not found in the 1891 census, she is at a boarding school with Horace in the 1901 census and then disappears.

Horace's father according to family rumour was an 'illustrious member of the aristocracy, a person of considerable note' and he is found age 7 in the 1901 census with Violet at the girls boarding school - he hated it there!

Claude Henry Uhthoff is born in 1897
Father Enrique Anthony Uhthoff is born in 1875
Mother Annie Louisa Brooks is born abt 1880
Step-father Arthur Henry Parnell is born in 1876

Great-grandfather Henry Roman Uhthoff dies in 1884 leaving a fortune of £166,665 to his son Ludolfe Enrique Uhthoff
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1884-GB...?amount=116665 (http://www.in2013dollars.com/1884-GBP-in-2017?amount=116665)
That is £13 million pounds in today's money

1891 census Ludolfe Enrique is a wealthy foreign merchant from Mexico, a Spanish subject and his son Enrique Anthony Uhthoff is living with the family

1891 census Annie is living at home with her parents Edwin and Jane

1891 Arthur is at home with his parents, his father Henry is a corn merchant and miller

1897 Claude Henry Uhthoff is born to Enrique Anthony Uhthoff a merchants clerk and to Annie Louisa Uhthoff formerly Brooks
THERE IS NO MARRIAGE
BORN AT 150 FINBOROUGH ROAD

1897 baptism Claude Henry Uhthoff to unmarried parents Enrique Uhthoff and Annie Uhthoff, Henry is a family name
LIVING AT 133 FINBOROUGH ROAD, APARTMENTS OF MRS MAY JEZARD AND HER MANY OTHER NAMES BESIDES

1901 census Enrique is nowhere to be found but travels to and from the US frequently, could also be on the continent or America with Claude

1901 census Annie is living in residential chambers with other servants before her marriage to Arthur

1901 census Arthur is nowhere to be found but travels to and from the US frequently

1901 census Claude is not living with Annie's parents Edwin and Jane or living with the grandfather Ludolfe or father Enrique or other Uhthoff family in ENGLAND

1901 Annie Louisa Brooks marries Arthur Henry Parnell

1903 grandfather Ludolfe dies and leaves his estate of £14,841 to son Enrique, Ludolfe died in Switzerland
DID THE FAMILY TAKE CLAUDE ABROAD TO THE CONTINENT
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1903-GB...7?amount=14841 (http://www.in2013dollars.com/1903-GBP-in-2017?amount=14841)
That is £1.7 million pounds in today's money

1905 US census Claude is found in St Joseph's School, New Jersey

Annie Louisa Parnell and Claude Henry Parnell regularly travel between England and the US to meet Mr Parnell

1906 Enrique marries Kathleen Collinson

1910 US census Arthur, Annie and Claude are together and Arthur declares that he and Annie have been married for 14 years when they have actually been married for 9 years to protect his wife and step-son from any shame, they have a Japanese servant

Enrique regularly travels from England to the US as he is a foreign merchant but could also be seeing his son

1914 Annie sadly dies and Arthur does not remarry

1923 Claude marries Hilda Mary Chare and Claude states his father is Arthur, the kind man who married his mother and not Enrique, does he know who his birth father is

1939 census Enrique is a retired bank manager living in Surrey, his wife has a lady's companion

1939 census Claude is a press photographer and living in Surrey, did he know about his birth father Enrique, did they meet in Surrey

1948 Enrique dies leaving his estate of £3,275 to his widow Kathleen
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1903-GB...48?amount=3275 (http://www.in2013dollars.com/1903-GBP-in-1948?amount=3275)
That's almost £11,000 in today's money

So 133 Finborough Road is a hot bed of intrigue!

Violet born 1890 does not appear in the 1891 census
Horace born 1893 changes his name by 1901 census
Claude born 1897 does not appear in the 1901 census
All live at 133 Finborough Road
All were baptised at the same church
Violet's father we have absolutely no idea, an aristocrat, met through the theatre?
Horace's father is rumoured to be of the aristocracy, met through the theatre, we'll just never know
Claude's father Enrique came from a wealthy family

I seem to remember reading an article about children being baptised to parents who were pretending to be married and being paid to keep quiet in the Kensington area in late Victorian times but alas can't find again, read a long, long time ago, just as starting this research and didn't realise the significance then.

It's been a fascinating journey, thanks Violet, Horace and Claude.

Thanks Family Tree Forum too for all your help and interest!

LorraineK
01-06-19, 23:44
This is how Henry Roman Uhthoff made his £116,655 fortune / £13 million today that he left to his son Ludolfe Enrique Uhthoff


Morning Advertiser Saturday 27 April 1872
Director of The Brazilian Coffee Estates Company Limited, Henry Roman Uhthoff, 12 Leadenhall Street
This company is setup for the purpose of purchasing and working coffee and cotton estates in Brazil and for the introduction of 10,000 European emigrants into that Empire, in view of the abolition of slave labour throughout the Empire.


So would these 10,000 European emigrants be from the poor lower classses desperate for a new life and being used by their middle class/upper class masters to make their fortunes off the backs of poorly paid employees.


Morning Post Monday 22 December 1879
Director of The International Bank Of London Limited, Henry Roman Uhthoff, 147 Leadenhall Street
This company is established to carry on the business of the International Bank Of Hamburg & London (Limited) which was incorporated in March 1872 with the object of taking over the business of the London agency of the International Bank Of Hamburg.

Val wish Id never started
02-06-19, 00:22
can you condense this down to a much smaller search to start with, its so confusing, well to me it is

Val wish Id never started
02-06-19, 00:23
plus you seem to have a few searches on different forums ??
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1313542

Jill on the A272
02-06-19, 07:53
It would be worth buying the 1903 will, the son Enrique was just the executor, there could be a multitude of beneficiaries.

Jill on the A272
02-06-19, 07:59
Similarly, probate of Enrique in 1948 is granted to his widow, she is not necessarily the only beneficiary so it might be worthwhile buying it.

LorraineK
02-06-19, 11:58
Similarly, probate of Enrique in 1948 is granted to his widow, she is not necessarily the only beneficiary so it might be worthwhile buying it.

Thank you, yes, he may have remembered his son Claude in his will?

LorraineK
02-06-19, 12:00
The Thrasher/Jezard/Courtenay branch of our family are very confusing - lots of name changes - hence lots of explanation for cross-referencing.

This is the very first post I ever made, would discount this one now, although it does have useful information.

LorraineK
02-06-19, 12:02
plus you seem to have a few searches on different forums ??
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1313542

The Thrasher/Jezard/Courtenay branch of our family are very confusing - lots of name changes - hence lots of explanation for cross-referencing.

This is the very first post I ever made, would discount this one now, although it does have useful information

LorraineK
02-06-19, 15:24
Did step-father Arthur Henry Parnall die in 1911 in Manhattan, New York?

When Claude Henry Parnall/Uhthoff marries in 1923 he says his father Arthur Henry Parnall is deceased.

LorraineK
02-06-19, 22:00
Good evening, please help

Enrique Uhthoff is from an extremely wealthy family
Annie Louisa Brookes is a servant
Enrique and Annie have a child Claude Henry Uhthoff, stating on his birth certificate and baptism that they are married but they are not

Unable to find:

1911 England Census

Enrique Anthony Uhthoff born 1875
Kathleen May Uhthoff (maiden name Collinson)
Ida May Adelaide Uhthoff born 1906 (named after her mother and grandmother Adelaida who died suddenly in 1888 aged 42)

1911 England Census
Arthur Henry Parnall (but could have died 1911 in Manhattan, New York)
Annie Louisa Parnall born 1880 (maiden name Brookes)
Claude Henry Parnall/Uhthoff born 1897

Or there is every possibility that they are living abroad or travelling to and from the UK

It seems with Claude, the Uhthoff family are happy for him to be in the 1905 US Census and 1910 US Census but not the 1901 UK Census and 1911 UK Census - do people know in advance when the census is going to take place to go abroad or just be 'out' to not complete their information

Claude's father Enrique was in the 1896 newspapers, so his family are well known, his father Ludolfe left the family a £1.7MILLION fortune and grandfather Henry left the family a £13MILLION fortune appear in the newspapers regularly too - having an illegitimate child with a 17 year old servant in 1897 would have been scandalous for such a wealthy family.

Claude, his father Enrique and grandfather Ludolfe are also not found on the 1901 census, perhaps Claude has been taken abroad as Ludolfe dies in Switzerland in 1903.

Could a wealthy family have such control over hiding an illegitimate child in Victorian times.

Thank you for your help.

Caroline
02-06-19, 22:24
I have merged the two threads about Claude together - even so, it will be hard for people to keep track here as well as on other forums. :)

LorraineK
02-06-19, 22:37
Thank you, more condensed story now.

cbcarolyn
02-06-19, 23:49
so you just want to find the 1911 census?

you wrote on first post:

Claude Henry Uhthoff is born in 1897
Father Enrique Anthony Uhthoff is born in 1875
Mother Annie Louisa Brooks is born abt 1880
Step-father Arthur Henry Parnell is born in 1876

and then on second post:
Unable to find:

1911 England Census
Enrique Henry Uhthoff born 1875
Kathleen May Uhthoff (maiden name Collinson)
Ida May Adelaide Uhthoff born 1906 (named after her mother and grandmother Adelaida who died suddenly in 1888 aged 42)

are these the same person, sorry I found too much information to digest, and which is the correct middle name. I can see many many entries on Ancestry for Enrique A Uhthoff - is this address not enough to locate the building on the 1911 census and confirm that he is not resident in the house at the time?

LorraineK
03-06-19, 00:19
so you just want to find the 1911 census?

you wrote on first post:

Claude Henry Uhthoff is born in 1897
Father Enrique Anthony Uhthoff is born in 1875
Mother Annie Louisa Brooks is born abt 1880
Step-father Arthur Henry Parnell is born in 1876

and then on second post:
Unable to find:

1911 England Census
Enrique Henry Uhthoff born 1875
Kathleen May Uhthoff (maiden name Collinson)
Ida May Adelaide Uhthoff born 1906 (named after her mother and grandmother Adelaida who died suddenly in 1888 aged 42)

are these the same person, sorry I found too much information to digest, and which is the correct middle name. I can see many many entries on Ancestry for Enrique A Uhthoff - is this address not enough to locate the building on the 1911 census and confirm that he is not resident in the house at the time?



My apologies it should be Enrique Anthony Uhthoff and not Enrique Henry Uhthoff

LorraineK
03-06-19, 00:46
I thought you could only search for names on the censuses and not able to search for streets only?

In the 1911 London Electoral Register Enrique's place of abode is Saxonhurst, Effingham Road, Surbiton
description of qualifying property 8, 9 & 10 St Helen's - what does that mean please?

I don't know how to look up an address without a name on the censuses, thought that was a weakness for looking up and so the electoral registers useful for addresses?

Jill on the A272
03-06-19, 06:08
I have changed the name on post #11 for you Lorraine, you can only edit yourself in the first 10 minutes after posting.

LorraineK
03-06-19, 09:40
I have changed the name on post #11 for you Lorraine, you can only edit yourself in the first 10 minutes after posting.

Thanks Jill

I tried to reply to your private message but it says my options for mail are turned off?

cbcarolyn
03-06-19, 10:04
1911 census is often quite searchable if you put road name in the keywords and enter the lived in as the area, bit hit and miss - but often works.

Also if you locate other residents nearby you can use them to find the address.

I am assuming he may own some of the properties he has lived in so would check a few out, here is how I look in Ancestry as that is the only sub I have:

I have him at 17 Glazbury Road in 1905 in a directory and could easily find that road, an 1911 Clanton Thomas is living there in 1911, so had moved on from there.

1909 and 1910 I have him in Saxonhurst, Effingham Road Epsom
here is a resident in the road:

Registration district: Kingston
Registration District Number: 40
Sub-registration district: Esher
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 40
Piece: 3555

enter piece as exact, effingham in keywords and esher gives you the road, all properties are named and not numbered, so at a quick glance not found property, so need a bit of time on that one, Saxonhurst not showing on a search.

1914 and 1915 He is in Birds Oak, Oxshott, Epsom Surrey

this one is quite searchable, Birds Oak in keywords as exact and oxshott as lived in

and have found Ida Uhthoff with daughter Ida Mary, and her sister Maria Anonia. No Henry so must be away from household, so would he be abroad, or elsewhere in England?
Ancestry has them transcribed as Upthoff

hopefully this helps

Katarzyna
03-06-19, 11:19
The name has been transcribed on Find my Past as Upthoff as well.
This is the link for Ancestry:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=41477793

The electoral registers were about year out of date by the time they were published so the 1911 one for Saxonhurst was probably his previous address.

cbcarolyn
03-06-19, 14:20
1911 census is often quite searchable if you put road name in the keywords and enter the lived in as the area, bit hit and miss - but often works.

Also if you locate other residents nearby you can use them to find the address.

I am assuming he may own some of the properties he has lived in so would check a few out, here is how I look in Ancestry as that is the only sub I have:

I have him at 17 Glazbury Road in 1905 in a directory and could easily find that road, an 1911 Clanton Thomas is living there in 1911, so had moved on from there.

1909 and 1910 I have him in Saxonhurst, Effingham Road Epsom
here is a resident in the road:

Registration district: Kingston
Registration District Number: 40
Sub-registration district: Esher
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 40
Piece: 3555

enter piece as exact, effingham in keywords and esher gives you the road, all properties are named and not numbered, so at a quick glance not found property, so need a bit of time on that one, Saxonhurst not showing on a search.

1914 and 1915 He is in Birds Oak, Oxshott, Epsom Surrey

this one is quite searchable, Birds Oak in keywords as exact and oxshott as lived in

and have found Ida Uhthoff with daughter Ida Mary, and her sister Maria Anonia. No Henry so must be away from household, so would he be abroad, or elsewhere in England?
Ancestry has them transcribed as Upthoff

hopefully this helps

that should have read I have found Ida in 1911 census with daughter and Sister and henry - enrique!

LorraineK
03-06-19, 17:37
1911 census is often quite searchable if you put road name in the keywords and enter the lived in as the area, bit hit and miss - but often works.

Also if you locate other residents nearby you can use them to find the address.

I am assuming he may own some of the properties he has lived in so would check a few out, here is how I look in Ancestry as that is the only sub I have:

I have him at 17 Glazbury Road in 1905 in a directory and could easily find that road, an 1911 Clanton Thomas is living there in 1911, so had moved on from there.

1909 and 1910 I have him in Saxonhurst, Effingham Road Epsom
here is a resident in the road:

Registration district: Kingston
Registration District Number: 40
Sub-registration district: Esher
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 40
Piece: 3555

enter piece as exact, effingham in keywords and esher gives you the road, all properties are named and not numbered, so at a quick glance not found property, so need a bit of time on that one, Saxonhurst not showing on a search.

1914 and 1915 He is in Birds Oak, Oxshott, Epsom Surrey

this one is quite searchable, Birds Oak in keywords as exact and oxshott as lived in

and have found Ida Uhthoff with daughter Ida Mary, and her sister Maria Anonia. No Henry so must be away from household, so would he be abroad, or elsewhere in England?
Ancestry has them transcribed as Upthoff

hopefully this helps


Thank you very much lots to go on - have tried some of those suggestions, hit and miss definitely, and thanks for further tips to try.

I still think Claude has been whisked away the Uhthoffs in the 1901 census/given another name temporarily as Annie was a 17 year old servant when he was born.

Annie regularly visits the US in early 1900s so think Arthur and Claude are there as they are there on 1910 US census

1911 Ida Uhthoff mother was born in Colchester - usually known as Kathleen or in 1939 May.

1911 Think Arthur, Claude step-father has died in New York, perhaps Enrique has gone abroad to be with Claude and Annie.

British Newspaper Archive
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=%22rose%20harding%22&phrasesearch=rose%20harding&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=score
Found this sad story about Rose Harding trying to find a resident of Effingham Road in 1911
Rose Harding a young lady who lived at Walton On Thames, and whose body was recovered from the river on Friday, is reported to have received a few days previously, a notification of her sweetheart's death in France.

Only politely pointing out - Henry should be Enrique - I'd put Enrique Henry and should have been Enrique Anthony

LorraineK
03-06-19, 18:14
The name has been transcribed on Find my Past as Upthoff as well.
This is the link for Ancestry:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=41477793

The electoral registers were about year out of date by the time they were published so the 1911 one for Saxonhurst was probably his previous address.

Thank you

cbcarolyn
03-06-19, 23:23
Thank you very much lots to go on - have tried some of those suggestions, hit and miss definitely, and thanks for further tips to try.

I still think Claude has been whisked away the Uhthoffs in the 1901 census/given another name temporarily as Annie was a 17 year old servant when he was born.

Annie regularly visits the US in early 1900s so think Arthur and Claude are there as they are there on 1910 US census

1911 Ida Uhthoff mother was born in Colchester - usually known as Kathleen or in 1939 May.

1911 Think Arthur, Claude step-father has died in New York, perhaps Enrique has gone abroad to be with Claude and Annie.

British Newspaper Archive
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=%22rose%20harding%22&phrasesearch=rose%20harding&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=score
Found this sad story about Rose Harding trying to find a resident of Effingham Road in 1911
Rose Harding a young lady who lived at Walton On Thames, and whose body was recovered from the river on Friday, is reported to have received a few days previously, a notification of her sweetheart's death in France.

Only politely pointing out - Henry should be Enrique - I'd put Enrique Henry and should have been Enrique Anthony

I had corrected the Henry error in my next post, can't edit after a while, at least you have Ida 1911 census now and know that there is no Enrique, unless he stays elsewhere in the UK?

I didn't look for this:
1911 England Census
Arthur Henry Parnall (but could have died 1911 in Manhattan, New York)
Annie Louisa Parnall born 1880 (maiden name Brookes)
Claude Henry Parnall/Uhthoff born 1897
do you have the 1901 details?

cbcarolyn
04-06-19, 00:45
searching the 1911 schedules is easier too, I forgot to mention.

LorraineK
04-06-19, 09:22
I had corrected the Henry error in my next post, can't edit after a while, at least you have Ida 1911 census now and know that there is no Enrique, unless he stays elsewhere in the UK?

I didn't look for this:
1911 England Census
Arthur Henry Parnall (but could have died 1911 in Manhattan, New York)
Annie Louisa Parnall born 1880 (maiden name Brookes)
Claude Henry Parnall/Uhthoff born 1897
do you have the 1901 details?


Thank you for the tips again, shame can't edit posts, can ask moderator to if that makes it easier in the future.

Although can't find, Enrique could have gone to the US in 1911, for work? To see Claude and Annie, if Arthur has died?
Step-father Arthur I think has died in Manhattan in 1911, Annie is travelling to and from US in 1911, so think Claude is in US in 1911 and Annie is a ship stewardess in 1912

Claude is nowhere to be found in 1901, I think he may be in Switzerland with the Uhthoff family as his grandfather Ludolfe dies there in 1903, father Enrique is not on 1901 census perhaps travelling, perhaps living abroad with his son Claude, as Enrique's father Ludolfe is also on not on 1901 census, Claude could have another name in 1901 or just mistranscribed/misspelt.

Annie I think is a servant in 1901 census in the Precinct Of The Savoy area, I think her parents are Edwin and Jane but without a marriage certificate for Annie and Enrique cannot cross-reference her parents (say they are married on birth certificate and baptism for Claude but they are not married)

Caroline
04-06-19, 09:43
Thank you for the tips again, shame can't edit posts, can ask moderator to if that makes it easier in the future.



Er no, that isn't possible I am afraid. :rotfl:

You can always pre-type it in notepad and proofread it there or you can always quote the wrong post with the correction underneath it.

LorraineK
04-06-19, 11:32
Er no, that isn't possible I am afraid. :rotfl:

You can always pre-type it in notepad and proofread it there or you can always quote the wrong post with the correction underneath it.

Moderator Jill kindly altered my post as someone noticed Enrique's middle name should be Anthony and not Henry.

Yes already type up in Word but can still make human error, was thinking about Enrique's grandfather who was called Henry.

Quoting the wrong post with the correction underneath is probably the best solution as users unable to edit their posts.

Caroline
04-06-19, 12:00
Moderator Jill kindly altered my post as someone noticed Enrique's middle name should be Anthony and not Henry.

Yes already type up in Word but can still make human error, was thinking about Enrique's grandfather who was called Henry.

Quoting the wrong post with the correction underneath is probably the best solution as users unable to edit their posts.

Yes, we are aware of Jill's kindness - this is occasionally done as a friendly gesture for brand new members as a helpful one off, but I am sure that you understand that it isn't practical normally. The site is run by volunteers with other things to do with our time. :)

It is sad that there has to be a time limit on editing but we were forced into this by members who abused the system by editing/deleting their posts later on.

LorraineK
04-06-19, 13:27
Yes of course perfectly understand, but being able to alter the first post myself to correct name Enrique Anthony BUT leaving explanation of Enrique Henry being incorrectly entered in that first post would have been helpful, so you know right at the start the correct name rather than finding out later on.

Best of all try not to make mistakes - but all human!

Thanks for what you all do as moderators. :D

My very first two threads, a moderator once deleted first thread as had put same information on Living Relatives Forum and Dead Ancestor Forum on same site - thought people would focus on living relatives and dead ancestors on the different forums - the moderator deleted one of the threads with some replies on, which the researchers thought I had ungratefully deleted, so had to explain I hadn't deleted their research and had fortunately quite by chance printed so could put back onto the remaining thread - so asked moderator in future could users be contacted first before a thread is deleted, put that thread with research into a holding area, or transfer over the research.

Caroline
04-06-19, 14:40
Yes of course perfectly understand, but being able to alter the first post myself to correct name Enrique Anthony BUT leaving explanation of Enrique Henry being incorrectly entered in that first post would have been helpful, so you know right at the start the correct name rather than finding out later on.

Best of all try not to make mistakes - but all human!

Thanks for what you all do as moderators. :D

My very first two threads, a moderator once deleted first thread as had put same information on Living Relatives Forum and Dead Ancestor Forum on same site - thought people would focus on living relatives and dead ancestors on the different forums - the moderator deleted one of the threads with some replies on, which the researchers thought I had ungratefully deleted, so had to explain I hadn't deleted their research and had fortunately quite by chance printed so could put back onto the remaining thread - so asked moderator in future could users be contacted first before a thread is deleted, put that thread with research into a holding area, or transfer over the research.

Having once deleted a thread instead of merging it (in the "back office" so only the moderators were inconvenienced), I can assure you that is all too easy to do - and once done it can't be retrieved.

I think the simple rules of not posting details of possible living people, preparing your text, keeping everything together and also letting people know that requests are repeated elsewhere, and where those places, are helps everyone.

LorraineK
04-06-19, 17:01
Wouldn't even be having this discussion over one word if I could have altered wrong name when other user noticed / if I noticed myself later on - but I can see why you don't let users alter their posts, if others users are deleting posts / altering posts for other reasons.

Text prepared, one name out, everything together, date order.

Lost thread, we're all human, just like I put down wrong name!

Living people weren't posted, asked for living relatives to get in touch.

Thanks :)

cbcarolyn
05-06-19, 09:28
I have not found any more interesting info.

Do you have ancestry subscription? I see that Enrique and a few others have very many entries for the electoral rolls, have you picked all these up? you can pretty much track his whereabouts for nearly every year. it would be interesting to map these movements and compare with Claude.

There are also some war records for Claude Henry - not sure if any are attributable to him, have you investigated these?

Like previously mentioned there are wills for various members so might be worth getting one or more.

Enrique had quite a few siblings, did you track these to see if they ever link back to him or his family?

I don't have a worldwide sub, but like you have found there are passenger lists back and forth for them and the wider family, so very likely that any were out of the country for census and death.

LorraineK
05-06-19, 10:29
Thank you Carolyn

Yes I thought Claude might have been staying with Enrique's siblings but no joy there either in 1901.

Claude's step-father Arthur died in 1911 and Annie died in 1914, his World War One and World War Two documents don't bring up anything about family, would be interesting if they had listed any Uhthoffs or Parnalls or Brookes.

I think for 1911 Claude and Annie are either in the US or travelling.

Claude is in a US boarding school in 1905, the first time he is travelling with Annie is 1903, the year his grandfather Ludolfe died, perhaps he was abroad with his grandfather and father from his birth in 1897? I think we'll just never know.

My interest in Claude is that he was baptised with our relatives Horace and Violet - and I believe there was a scandal in late Victorian times in the Kensington area involving wealthy people, the clergy, illegitimate births and baptism - Claude and his parents lived at 133 Finborough Road with Horace and Violet - Mrs May Jezard their grandmother rented apartments (known under many other names Priscilla Thrasher, Priscilla Jezard, Priscilla Torplow/Triplow. born Priscilla May Pope in 1840 Hartest) - Violet and Horace were both illegitimate with false names on their birth certificates and baptisms and the family were theatrical.

Olde Crone Holden
05-06-19, 13:43
I have to say I am struggling to understand what kind of scandal could be attached to baptism. What would be the point of any wrong doing?

OC

Jill on the A272
05-06-19, 18:14
The baptism register does not show Claude being baptised with anyone called Horace or Violet, he was bapt 1st Aug 1907 at St Philip, Kensington and on the same day Mary Eleanor Connett and Bertie Edmund Pullin.

cbcarolyn
05-06-19, 19:17
Thank you Carolyn

Yes I thought Claude might have been staying with Enrique's siblings but no joy there either in 1901.

Claude's step-father Arthur died in 1911 and Annie died in 1914, his World War One and World War Two documents don't bring up anything about family, would be interesting if they had listed any Uhthoffs or Parnalls or Brookes.

I think for 1911 Claude and Annie are either in the US or travelling.

Claude is in a US boarding school in 1905, the first time he is travelling with Annie is 1903, the year his grandfather Ludolfe died, perhaps he was abroad with his grandfather and father from his birth in 1897? I think we'll just never know.

My interest in Claude is that he was baptised with our relatives Horace and Violet - and I believe there was a scandal in late Victorian times in the Kensington area involving wealthy people, the clergy, illegitimate births and baptism - Claude and his parents lived at 133 Finborough Road with Horace and Violet - Mrs May Jezard their grandmother rented apartments (known under many other names Priscilla Thrasher, Priscilla Jezard, Priscilla Torplow/Triplow. born Priscilla May Pope in 1840 Hartest) - Violet and Horace were both illegitimate with false names on their birth certificates and baptisms and the family were theatrical.

So Claude (and the Uhthoffs) are not your family at all, just parents using the address as their abode, and it is 133 Finborough Road you are interested in?


I have to say I am struggling to understand what kind of scandal could be attached to baptism. What would be the point of any wrong doing?

OC

Me too - how do you know that they are false parents?


The baptism register does not show Claude being baptised with anyone called Horace or Violet, he was bapt 1st Aug 1907 at St Philip, Kensington and on the same day Mary Eleanor Connett and Bertie Edmund Pullin.
They were baptised in July 1896 - but parents both have listed 133 Finborough road as their address. (I think you meant 1897 not 1907)

cbcarolyn
05-06-19, 19:54
I have just found 133 Finborough road in 1901 census - and it is unoccupied, along with 131

London --> Kensington -->Brompton --> District 17 Page 40

you also get a lot of the elec reg by putting in 133 finborough road in the keywords. I added Earls Court as lived in

Jill on the A272
05-06-19, 20:12
They were baptised in July 1896 - but parents both have listed 133 Finborough road as their address. (I think you meant 1897 not 1907)

Yes, a typo on my part, thank you for spotting it.

LorraineK
05-06-19, 21:01
I have just found 133 Finborough road in 1901 census - and it is unoccupied, along with 131

London --> Kensington -->Brompton --> District 17 Page 40

you also get a lot of the elec reg by putting in 133 finborough road in the keywords. I added Earls Court as lived in









Thanks Carolyn for your excellent instructions, haven't been confident enough to use that before - but do now! Priscilla presumably bought the house at auction in 1895 as you find her in the London Electoral Register at that address and is the address on her 1900 death certificate, wonder why the house was sold?

Daughters: Ruth married in 1900 Fulham to Albert Court (as Ruby Jezard and Edward Albert Court), Alice stays in 13 Finborough Road in 1901 census living on own means, Eliza has disappeared (Eliza Priscilla Thrasher born 1868 St Giles), Louisa is a servant at Dorset Mansions in 1901, her married sister Ruby Court is living in the same apartments with her husband Edward.

LorraineK
05-06-19, 21:06
Thanks Carolyn for your excellent instructions, haven't been confident enough to use that before - but do now! Priscilla presumably bought the house at auction in 1895 as you find her in the London Electoral Register at that address and is the address on her 1900 death certificate, wonder why the house was sold?

Daughters: Ruth married in 1900 Fulham to Albert Court (as Ruby Jezard and Edward Albert Court), Alice stays in 13 Finborough Road in 1901 census living on own means, Eliza has disappeared (Eliza Priscilla Thrasher born 1868 St Giles), Louisa is a servant at Dorset Mansions in 1901, her married sister Ruby Court is living in the same apartments with her husband Edward.

Alice Thrasher is Grace Courtenay by 1901, just as her son Horace Thrasher is Horace Courtenay by 1901 - but not by marriage.

Albert Edward Court was Chief Of Staff at London Coliseum.
Ruth performed at the Royal Drury Lane Theatre and then late emigrated to America leaving her husband and son behind, after meeting Edward Warren Congdon and becoming his 'wife'.

LorraineK
05-06-19, 21:23
So Claude (and the Uhthoffs) are not your family at all, just parents using the address as their abode, and it is 133 Finborough Road you are interested in?



Me too - how do you know that they are false parents?


They were baptised in July 1896 - but parents both have listed 133 Finborough road as their address. (I think you meant 1897 not 1907)


Horace and Violet live at 133 Finborough Road with their grandmother Priscilla, they are baptised in 1896 at the same church as Claude.
Horace has Alice Thrasher and Robert Thrasher (her father) as parents on birth certificate, has Louisa Thresher and Percy Thresher as parents on baptism (his aunt and husband-to-be)
Violet has Eliza Jezard and Alfred Jezard (no such person) as parents on birth certificate, has George Jezard and May Jezard as parents on baptism (her grandmother, could be Priscilla's brother)

Claude and his unmarried parents Enrique Uhthoff and Annie Louisa Brookes live at 133 Finborough Road, Claude is baptised in 1897 at the same church as Horace and Violet, the birth certificate and baptism say they are married.

I wish I could find that story about the clergy and Kensington in the 1890's, taking bribes knowing the parents weren't married when the children were baptised.

LorraineK
05-06-19, 21:28
I have to say I am struggling to understand what kind of scandal could be attached to baptism. What would be the point of any wrong doing?

OC

The children are baptised outside the parish of 133 Finborough Road, as we spoke to the church.

The children could have been baptised, with the mothers' names and without the fathers' names - but they all made up stories to the church and to the authorities, who would give heavy penalties to to those giving false information on birth, marriage and death certificates - if found out!

LorraineK
05-06-19, 21:30
The baptism register does not show Claude being baptised with anyone called Horace or Violet, he was bapt 1st Aug 1907 at St Philip, Kensington and on the same day Mary Eleanor Connett and Bertie Edmund Pullin.

Yes that's right, the connection is 133 Finborough Road where all three live,

Olde Crone Holden
05-06-19, 23:14
There are no penalties - well, not earthly ones anyway - for giving false information on baptism. The church's interest is the soul of the child being baptised, not in the details of its parentage. I have several baptisms in my tree where I know the parents named are actually the grandparents. The vicar would have been well aware of this but his interest was who was the legal parent, not who was the natural parent. Church records belong to the church, not to the state.

Hefty fines for lying deliberately to the registrar, but giving a false name is not a lie, because anyone could and still can, call themselves by any name they wish, as long as they are not impersonating someone else.

OC

cbcarolyn
06-06-19, 10:07
Horace and Violet live at 133 Finborough Road with their grandmother Priscilla, they are baptised in 1896 at the same church as Claude.
Horace has Alice Thrasher and Robert Thrasher (her father) as parents on birth certificate, has Louisa Thresher and Percy Thresher as parents on baptism (his aunt and husband-to-be)
Violet has Eliza Jezard and Alfred Jezard (no such person) as parents on birth certificate, has George Jezard and May Jezard as parents on baptism (her grandmother, could be Priscilla's brother)

Claude and his unmarried parents Enrique Uhthoff and Annie Louisa Brookes live at 133 Finborough Road, Claude is baptised in 1897 at the same church as Horace and Violet, the birth certificate and baptism say they are married.

I wish I could find that story about the clergy and Kensington in the 1890's, taking bribes knowing the parents weren't married when the children were baptised.

The baptism differs to the register? but you think neither parents are right for your 2? I can see that other people have had same problem with certificates, the baptism has been known to be fake as is 'public' and the register should be right.

You are thinking the house is the connection? would it just be because they are rented rooms, so people can come and go quite easily? The vicar would have no knowledge of the families if they were not local and just take them at face value?

Olde Crone Holden
06-06-19, 10:27
Baptisms aren't necessarily public but even if they are, if you are calling yourselves Mr and Mrs Bloggs when your child is baptised, then that is perfectly acceptable and not illegal. Church records are only available "on demand" and in my limited experience, not available for idle curiosity regarding the neighbours!

OC

LorraineK
06-06-19, 10:35
There are no penalties - well, not earthly ones anyway - for giving false information on baptism. The church's interest is the soul of the child being baptised, not in the details of its parentage. I have several baptisms in my tree where I know the parents named are actually the grandparents. The vicar would have been well aware of this but his interest was who was the legal parent, not who was the natural parent. Church records belong to the church, not to the state.

Hefty fines for lying deliberately to the registrar, but giving a false name is not a lie, because anyone could and still can, call themselves by any name they wish, as long as they are not impersonating someone else.

OC

No.40 Penalty For False Information
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/37-38/88/enacted

Local archves also advised about hefty fines or imprisonment for giving false information to a registrar.

https://www.justanswer.co.uk/law/8p1kw-put-false-information-sons-birth-certificate-when.html

LorraineK
06-06-19, 11:01
Baptisms aren't necessarily public but even if they are, if you are calling yourselves Mr and Mrs Bloggs when your child is baptised, then that is perfectly acceptable and not illegal. Church records are only available "on demand" and in my limited experience, not available for idle curiosity regarding the neighbours!

OC

133 Finborough Road was not in the neighbourhood of St Phillip's Kensington, spoken to the vicar there, so anyone asking to see any baptisms on demand would need to know what church to visit.

LorraineK
06-06-19, 11:17
The baptism differs to the register? but you think neither parents are right for your 2? I can see that other people have had same problem with certificates, the baptism has been known to be fake as is 'public' and the register should be right.

You are thinking the house is the connection? would it just be because they are rented rooms, so people can come and go quite easily? The vicar would have no knowledge of the families if they were not local and just take them at face value?


For the baptisms, yes, take at face value, the vicar wouldn't know the parents from Adam and Eve.

Birth certificate,, Horace's mother Alice Thrasher calls herself formerly Grace Courtenay, married name Grace Thrasher, father Robert Thrasher (is her father) - sorry hadn't mentioned Grace previously, Horace born at 81 Archel Road where his his grandmother Priscilla Jezard of many other names lives.

Birth certificate, Violet's mother is Eliza Jezard, formerly Eliza Thrasher but father Alfred Jezard doesn't exist, Violet and Alfred not in 1891 census.

LorraineK
06-06-19, 11:55
Baptisms aren't necessarily public but even if they are, if you are calling yourselves Mr and Mrs Bloggs when your child is baptised, then that is perfectly acceptable and not illegal. Church records are only available "on demand" and in my limited experience, not available for idle curiosity regarding the neighbours!

OC


Post #8 Vicar not happy that he has been 'imposed' upon by parents saying they are married when they are not
https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/24514-Base-child-illegitimate

Olde Crone Holden
06-06-19, 14:45
Lorraine

That is one vicar having a moan about having been deceived about a marriage, which is not the same deception as the giving of false names. It doesn't amount to a scandal. It was also pre 1837, when church records were the only recordings of life events, so the truth was a bit more important for purposes of inheritance.

I think you are overthinking the fine details here. Your people changed their names on a whim, not to deceive as far as I can tell. They pretended to be married, as would almost any co-habiting couple in Victorian times, so I don't find anything remarkable about that.

OC

cbcarolyn
06-06-19, 14:47
Baptisms aren't necessarily public but even if they are, if you are calling yourselves Mr and Mrs Bloggs when your child is baptised, then that is perfectly acceptable and not illegal. Church records are only available "on demand" and in my limited experience, not available for idle curiosity regarding the neighbours!

OCwhat I meant is 'public' as in people can see - so want advertise it as respectable, where as register is legally binding - but no one need know.

cbcarolyn
06-06-19, 14:53
For the baptisms, yes, take at face value, the vicar wouldn't know the parents from Adam and Eve.

Birth certificate,, Horace's mother Alice Thrasher calls herself formerly Grace Courtenay, married name Grace Thrasher, father Robert Thrasher (is her father) - sorry hadn't mentioned Grace previously, Horace born at 81 Archel Road where his his grandmother Priscilla Jezard of many other names lives.

Birth certificate, Violet's mother is Eliza Jezard, formerly Eliza Thrasher but father Alfred Jezard doesn't exist, Violet and Alfred not in 1891 census.

so what are you thinking that Grandmother Priscilla aka May and also owns Finborough road (is that the same person?) is advising people where to take illegitimate children for baptisms? So why is he living in Archel road, but put Finborough Road on baptism when wasn't even in parish?