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laurence89
31-05-19, 23:00
I'm compiling my wifes family tree they came from Glamorgan , Wales, in the 1911 census it showed that there were 5 children born alive and 3 died i cannot find any trace of these children if infants died soon after birth would they be required to be issued with birth and death certificates any help would be grateful.

cbcarolyn
31-05-19, 23:29
I am not 100% sure, I thought they did - others on here will let you know.

I do know that they may not have been named and searching can be harder, have you tried GRO putting in maiden name and fathers surname?
https://www.gro.gov.uk/

Val wish Id never started
31-05-19, 23:41
If your baby was born dead before 24 completed weeks of pregnancy your baby's birth cannot be registered. ... If your baby was born alive at any stage of pregnancy and then died, you need to register you baby's death within 5 working days. You can register the birth at the same time.

Sylvia C
01-06-19, 00:07
Val is correct ..............

HOWEVER there are some births that are not registered but the deaths are.

This seems to happen when the death occurs very soon after birth, everything and everybody is in a state of chaos, and registering the birth seems to get lost in it all.

I was once told that if a baby took 2 breaths after birth but then died, that it was considered as being born alive.

But use that GRO Index given you by Carolyn. You have to register, but it is free and safe. Just follow the instructions for births and deaths.

Use the birth index first, then change to the Death Index ........... although there is one little problem with the deaths ..........

they do not give the mother's maiden name as that is not on an English or Welsh death certificate for a child. But the problem is that they have not yet succeeded in distinguishing between hours, days, weeks, months or years for children under the age of 12, even though that information is on the registration.

Therefore you have to decide whether a child shown as dying at "age 6" actually died at age 6 hours, 6 days, 6 weeks, 6 months or 6 years.

Use your knowledge of the name, and the area of registration.

Anne in Carlisle
01-06-19, 08:10
I firmly believe that some families counted still births or even late miscarriages in their total of children. They were all remembered and each was a sadness for the family, regardless of the actual question on that column of the census. Using Sylvia's suggestions above should find them all unless they were never alive outside the womb and therefore not eligible for registration.
Anne

kylejustin
01-06-19, 09:12
Bear in mind not all deaths were registered prior to 1875, a law was passed around then as there was an infamous black widow case.

If you have access to burial registers in the local area, that might be a good way to find the children too, if you can match addresses to census details or birth addresses.

laurence89
01-06-19, 13:44
Thanks for the quick response I have tried typing in the mothers maiden name but they don't show this on records until 1912. As the parents have very Welsh names Elliott and Jones the results that have come up are many, so other than to purchase these on the off chance i strike lucky i think this is the only option left for me which is going to work out quite expensive. Thanks again for all your suggestions.

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 14:02
Thanks for the quick response I have tried typing in the mothers maiden name but they don't show this on records until 1912.

Maiden name is definitely on GRO before 1912, I can have a look for you if you post some details.

here are a couple in Swansea as an example: father Elliott and mother Jones male 1892 +/- 2 years


ELLIOTT, FREDERICK THOMAS JONES
GRO Reference: 1892 S Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 858
ELLIOTT, JOHN JONES
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 834

laurence89
01-06-19, 19:11
Sorry if i misled you my wife's grandparents were married in 1900 in Pontypridd, Glamorgan their first born was Charles in 1901 and Margaret in 1907 its between 1901 and 1911 they had these other 3 children that i cannot trace. Thanks

laurence89
01-06-19, 19:23
Thanks for taking the time to look.

Olde Crone Holden
01-06-19, 19:37
There is a new site for GRO bmds and the mother's maiden name is shown from 1837. I am on my kindle so I don't know how to do a link, perhaps someone else will do it, please.

I've had a quick look, too many to know which might be yours I'm afraid. You could try cross referencing all the births with deaths and the 1911 census.

OC

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 20:10
I posted link previously https://www.gro.gov.uk/ - you need to log in (it costs nothing) and do a search. It only lets you search 4 years at a time.

I have had a look and there are too many with Elliott and maiden name Jones than you need, I have tried cross referencing to the deaths and think I have one match - see marked in red

You could be lucky in finding the other family on the 1911 census and could then dismiss a bunch just leaving you with yours. Also some names may fit better.

Male births
ELLIOTT, CHARLES JONES
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 528
ELLIOTT, RICHARD JOSEPH JONES
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 541
ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN JONES
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 545
ELLIOTT, WILLIAM FRANCIS JONES
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 613
ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN JONES
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 573
ELLIOTT, TREVOR GEORGE JONES
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 586
ELLIOTT, GEORGE ALBERT JONES
GRO Reference: 1911 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1182


female births
ELLIOTT, SELINA JONES
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 545
ELLIOTT, MARGARET MAY JONES
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 532
ELLIOTT, MARTHA MARY JONES
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 531
ELLIOTT, DORA LIZZIE JONES
GRO Reference: 1911 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 589


infant deaths - not available with maiden name
Male
ELLIOTT, WILLIAM 0
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 281
ELLIOTT, JOHN HENRY LEONARD 0
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 268
ELLIOTT, STANLEY WALTER 0
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 314
ELLIOTT, LESLIE AUGUSTUS 1
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 256
ELLIOTT, EDWARD JOHN 0
GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 277
ELLIOTT, JOHN EDWARD 1
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 306
ELLIOTT, BRINLEY 2
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in PONTY PRIDD Volume 11A Page 264
ELLIOTT, CHARLES GEORGE 0
GRO Reference: 1906 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 262
ELLIOTT, EDWIN PHILLIP 0
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 283
ELLIOTT, ARTHUR EDWARD 0
GRO Reference: 1907 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 325
ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN 0
GRO Reference: 1910 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 290
ELLIOTT, CHARLES HENRY 3
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 488

female
ELLIOTT, CLARA WINIFRED 1
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 350
ELLIOTT, ELIZABETH 0
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 321
ELLIOTT, ELSIE MAY 0
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 297

Olde Crone Holden
01-06-19, 20:13
Sorry cbc, didn't spot your link, my kindle doesn't show colours very well!

OC

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 20:25
Sorry cbc, didn't spot your link, my kindle doesn't show colours very well!

OC
no problem

I have just realised you can dismiss the female and last male as these were after the census, and the female in December quarter as too soon after first born
Also this name is the one that has died later at age 0
ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN

so it is either not yours or he also died

Katarzyna
01-06-19, 21:26
The birth of Brinley is on FreeBMD but not on GRO

Births Sep 1903
Elliott Brinley Pontypridd 11a 509

You have age 2 for his death in post#12 --- obviously means 2 months not 2 years

Katarzyna
01-06-19, 21:33
Apart from Thomas John who we know died all the others are on 1911 census

ELLIOTT, CHARLES mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 528

ELLIOTT, MARGARET MAY mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 532
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELLIOTT, SELINA mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 545------------------------------------on 1911 census

ELLIOTT, MARTHA MARY JONES
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 531------------------------------------on 1911 census

ELLIOTT, RICHARD ARTHUR JONES
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 503 ------------------------------------on 1911 census
ELLIOTT, RICHARD JOSEPH JONES
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 541------------------------------------on 1911 census

ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN JONES
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 545------------------------------------on 1911 census

ELLIOTT, WILLIAM FRANCIS JONES
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 613------------------------------------on 1911 census

ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN JONES
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 573

ELLIOTT, THOMAS JOHN DEATH age 0
GRO Reference: 1910 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 290

ELLIOTT, TREVOR GEORGE JONES
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 586------------------------------------on 1911 census

Katarzyna
01-06-19, 21:59
I cannot see a birth for these deaths anywhere - not just Wales therefore probably not registered.
Dec 1903 Elliott Leslie Augustus age 1(hr, day, Week Month etc) Pontypridd 11a 256
Mar 1906 Elliott Edwin Phillip age 0 Pontypridd 11a 283

All the other deaths Carolyn listed have Pontypridd birth registrations but with different m m name.

It looks possible then that these three - Leslie, Edwin and Thomas could be your missing three.
Edit. There is of course Brinley as well :(

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 23:28
good deduction, I had to go and do something, so didn't have chance to look.

Brinley sounds an unusual name - so it might fit with eg a maiden name of grandmother, or some other family name