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gracemegan
25-05-19, 12:10
need help again please
Edward Lee married Ann Maria Pugh nov 8th 1846 both living at the Crescent Birmingham , married at St Martins church Birmingham .
fathers were John Lee dec and John pugh dec. both blacksmiths,
I know Edward had at least one brother Francis Lee who married Sophia Rodgers and maria Pugh had at least one sister Sarah Pugh.
they all state born in Birmingham. I would love to trace the families. of both Edward Lee and Maria Pugh. they were my great grandparents. but I keep drawing a blank with both. any ideas please.

Janet H.
25-05-19, 18:34
do you know when they were born.
do you have the marriage certificate that gives their ages


this is probably her death and burial
First name(s) Ann Maria
Last name Lee
Birth year -
Death year 1908
Burial year 1908
Cemetery Witton Cemetery
Place Birmingham, Witton Cemetery

Janet H.
25-05-19, 18:43
found this 1841
John Pugh born 1873 widower lodging with John Starlion and family.
John Pugh is listed as a blacksmith.
Parish of St. Martin

ooops sorry it was the 1851. There is a small chance that deceased was not correct.

cbcarolyn
25-05-19, 19:42
should be able to find them on some census - have you got those? do you know their childrens names?

these are on GRO with maiden name Pugh - are these likely?

LEE, MARIA PUGH
GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 16 Page 415
LEE, SARAH ANN PUGH
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 16 Page 364
LEE, CAROLINE PUGH
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 23
LEE, EDWARD PUGH
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 65
LEE, EDWARD PUGH
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 65
LEE, THOMAS PUGH
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 10

On marriage record it says Edward was a nailer

cbcarolyn
25-05-19, 19:58
I have found a couple of census with wife as Maria Lee, and Edward a coal merchant with Maria in 1851 and with Maria and Caroline in 1861, can post details or link to ancestry.

Elaine
25-05-19, 20:54
Taking a guess but looking at the children's names, John Pugh jobbing smith 1841

H0 107/1143/7/24/6 Lench Street, Birmingham

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=FhD21763&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=8978&gsfn=henry&gsln=pugh&cp=4&msfng=john&msmng=sarah&msypn__ftp=birmingham,%20warwickshire,%20england,% 20united%20kingdom&msypn__ftp_x=1&msypn=1652385&msypn_x=1&qh=MuXX9fz2EiraES4qJsUHTg%3D%3D&new=1&rank=1&uidh=a4r&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=10979637&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

John Pugh 52
Sarah Pugh 48 nail stamper
Caroline Pugh 13
Sarah Pugh 6
Henry Pugh 5

Elaine
25-05-19, 21:34
Marriage for Francis Lea to Sophia Rogers, he is as blacksmith whilst father is nail maker

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=4994&h=4342815&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD21785&_phstart=successSource

witnesses William and Elizabeth Simpson

cbcarolyn
25-05-19, 21:49
maybe John in 1851?
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=9138680&tid=161314848&pid=222103426989&hid=1049618137055&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9025&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true

Pugh is a common name in wales, not sure if so in Birmingham

gracemegan
26-05-19, 10:09
thank you yes i have the wedding certificate but it just states full age.

gracemegan
26-05-19, 10:12
thank you

gracemegan
26-05-19, 10:16
thank you I have this but have being told before I have the wrong people and I wondered if there could have being another family with the names francis and Sophia rodgrers and lee.

gracemegan
26-05-19, 10:21
thank you all for your help on the pugh name i am after the lee name mainly as he was my great grandfather.

gracemegan
26-05-19, 10:23
have them in the census returns thank you its the parents of Edward lee I am looking for.

vera2013
26-05-19, 21:11
I have found a couple of census with wife as Maria Lee, and Edward a coal merchant with Maria in 1851 and with Maria and Caroline in 1861, can post details or link to ancestry.

The 1871 for this family has Edward b Broseley, Shopshire.

He is with wife Maria, d Maria and son Frederick George b 1868. Frederick G's bap gives father Edward a Labourer residing Cottage Lane

Vera

cbcarolyn
26-05-19, 21:31
The 1871 for this family has Edward b Broseley, Shopshire.

He is with wife Maria, d Maria and son Frederick George b 1868. Frederick G's bap gives father Edward a Labourer residing Cottage Lane

Vera
GRO says mothers name Pugh

gracemegan
27-05-19, 07:44
thank you yes i have these but it is edwards father and mother i am looking for. but thank you both

Chrissie Smiff
27-05-19, 08:22
thank you yes i have the wedding certificate but it just states full age.

What name and occupation does it give for his father?

Sorry - ignore that - I see you have already given those details.

cbcarolyn
27-05-19, 09:23
thank you yes i have these but it is edwards father and mother i am looking for. but thank you both

you often locate parents by finding all records on the family, as will pinpoint occupation, place of birth. Also finding all siblings is important as the parents can be found residing with them, or nearby.

do you think you have all siblings and all census for all of them?

Are you using Ancestry or FMP or various free sites, transcription can be different on them.

I have not found census for Francis but note that the marriage record (if it is correct link) is in central Birmingham not far from Edward, which could mean that is the area that they were raised.

It is interesting that Edward put a different place of birth, he did revert to birmingham in the next census. could mean he moved as a baby I guess, or just the enumerator wrote it wrong.

vera2013
27-05-19, 14:07
Trying to track down Francis for pob. Have found a Francis Lea with Sophia in Birmingham in 1871. He is born in Worcester which is a different area from that of ? brother Edward recorded on 1871 as born in Shropshire.

Another problem on this 1871 census raises a query on Sophia Rogers. The mmn for the children on the 1871 is Simpson.

1871
Francis Lea b 1824 Worcester a Smith
Sophie Lea b 1823 Kidderminster
Emma b 1852 Kidderminster
Eliza b 1857 b Gournal (Dudley Reg)
Sophia b 1861 Gournal
living Brewery Street Court, Aston, Birmingham

there is also a Francis b 1851 Birmingham reg

I can see a Sophia and Francis with Sophia's parents in the 1851. This too is a bit odd

James 76 Nail Maker b Oldbury, Staffs
Martha 70 Birmingham
James, Son 41 Married Nail Maker Burton on Trent
Sophie daughter Married 48 ?? Thimble Maker Kidderminster
Francis Son Married 28 Nail maker Worcester
Living 3, Park Street, Birmingham

The Witnesses to Francis Lea and Sophie Rogers wedding in 1844 were
William Simpson and Elizabeth Butler who marry in 1837 St Martin, Birmingham
William full age bachelor Nailer living Park Street father James, Nailer
Elizabeth Butler Full Age Park Street father George Nailer
Witnesses Hannah Butler and Ann Jacobs

Subsequent census for William Simpson have him recorded as b Kidderminster

So was Sophie perhaps married previously or is this a different Sophie altogether I wonder

Vera

Elaine
27-05-19, 20:26
Just what I wondered Vera but couldn't see him 1851 (if I'm remembering the right census) to hopefully look at any other children or baptisms close to the marriage date.

cbcarolyn
27-05-19, 20:40
I must be going mad I can't find them on GRO....

I never knew that 'Nailer' was so prolific in Birmingham, someone else who was asking for look ups had many of them, fascinating.

Looks like you are getting somewhere, had at first thought Bordersley and Broseley were maybe misheard, but think that is a real long shot.

I had seen 1871 census but wasn't sure either, and couldn't find any others. so is 1851 just badly written and her age wrong?

Elaine
27-05-19, 21:27
Just had a look at the first baptism I can see and they are at Park Street Vera!

Son Francis

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=4981&h=3115335&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD21865&_phstart=successSource

cbcarolyn
27-05-19, 21:42
I wonder if there should be another sibling - John, they seemed to be using their names for first born

cbcarolyn
27-05-19, 21:50
1861 census
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/STSRG9_2046_2050-0237?pid=20533940&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D8767%26h%3D20533940%26t id%3D161314848%26pid%3D222103853075%26hid%3D104962 1647247%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi9164%26_phst art%3Ddefault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=161314848&personid=222103853075&hintid=1049621647247&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi9164&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.221831832.1683789201.1558773556-1485122363.1543608453

vera2013
27-05-19, 21:54
This is who I thought the 1871 children were on GRO

Lee, Francis 1851 SQ Birmingham mmn Simpson
Lee, Emily 1854 MQ Birmingham " "
Lee, Eliza 1857 JQ Dudley " "
Lee, Sophia 1861 MQ Dudley " "

Seems a bit odd no children recorded before 1851.

This is posing more questions than answers. Who is Sophia Rogers? Were Edward and Francis even brothers

Vera

Elaine
27-05-19, 22:35
Sophia isn't there 1841 Park Street

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=11003498&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=FhD21912&_phstart=successSource

cbcarolyn
27-05-19, 22:51
This is who I thought the 1871 children were on GRO

Lee, Francis 1851 SQ Birmingham mmn Simpson
Lee, Emily 1854 MQ Birmingham " "
Lee, Eliza 1857 JQ Dudley " "
Lee, Sophia 1861 MQ Dudley " "

Seems a bit odd no children recorded before 1851.

This is posing more questions than answers. Who is Sophia Rogers? Were Edward and Francis even brothers

Vera
Thank you - no idea what I was doing! Like you say very odd no children following marriage, so maybe wrong people

Not found any records to tie them together.

cbcarolyn
27-05-19, 23:39
Trying to track down Francis for pob. Have found a Francis Lea with Sophia in Birmingham in 1871. He is born in Worcester which is a different area from that of ? brother Edward recorded on 1871 as born in Shropshire.

Another problem on this 1871 census raises a query on Sophia Rogers. The mmn for the children on the 1871 is Simpson.

1871
Francis Lea b 1824 Worcester a Smith
Sophie Lea b 1823 Kidderminster
Emma b 1852 Kidderminster
Eliza b 1857 b Gournal (Dudley Reg)
Sophia b 1861 Gournal
living Brewery Street Court, Aston, Birmingham

there is also a Francis b 1851 Birmingham reg

I can see a Sophia and Francis with Sophia's parents in the 1851. This too is a bit odd

James 76 Nail Maker b Oldbury, Staffs
Martha 70 Birmingham
James, Son 41 Married Nail Maker Burton on Trent
Sophie daughter Married 48 ?? Thimble Maker Kidderminster
Francis Son Married 28 Nail maker Worcester
Living 3, Park Street, Birmingham

The Witnesses to Francis Lea and Sophie Rogers wedding in 1844 were
William Simpson and Elizabeth Butler who marry in 1837 St Martin, Birmingham
William full age bachelor Nailer living Park Street father James, Nailer
Elizabeth Butler Full Age Park Street father George Nailer
Witnesses Hannah Butler and Ann Jacobs

Subsequent census for William Simpson have him recorded as b Kidderminster

So was Sophie perhaps married previously or is this a different Sophie altogether I wonder

Vera
I think these are the right people - the enumerator has made an error (or their form was filled in wrong), the age 48 follows age 41 - and they are normally in order aren't they so 28 works. and then clearly Francis would be son in law...and wrong name! Rogers makes no sense though

gracemegan
28-05-19, 10:01
thank you every one i have beung trying to work it out for years now i just keep going in circles.i think the family were more likely to be from the birmingham area as they didnt seem to move out of birmingham.

gracemegan
28-05-19, 10:17
have this which I don't know is any help at all or just adding to the confusion. 1841 census has a john lea aged 28 and a Margaret lea age 25 living with family of William and Elizabeth Rodgers [ rogers ]in Dartmouth stree aston both born in county the trouble is my grandfather George Frederick lee [Edward lees son] died before I was born and his wife my grandmother Elizabeth died when I was ten. and I have no family I can ask for help. over the different census returns they have had name spelt as lee and also lea.

Katarzyna
28-05-19, 12:43
It might be best to work backwards from George Frederick and Elizabeth. Do you have their Birth and Marriage details? What censuses do you have for them?

cbcarolyn
28-05-19, 13:28
have this which I don't know is any help at all or just adding to the confusion. 1841 census has a john lea aged 28 and a Margaret lea age 25 living with family of William and Elizabeth Rodgers [ rogers ]in Dartmouth stree aston both born in county the trouble is my grandfather George Frederick lee [Edward lees son] died before I was born and his wife my grandmother Elizabeth died when I was ten. and I have no family I can ask for help. over the different census returns they have had name spelt as lee and also lea.

I do feel that there should have been a John Lee as well, although he is a much older than the other brothers, and not old enough to be the father - how do you know that Francis is a brother?

Here is their marriage
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/4994/40458_316971-00699?pid=1776765&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D4994%26h%3D1776765%26ti d%3D161314848%26pid%3D222103858478%26usePUB%3Dtrue %26_phsrc%3DSZd13566%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222103858478&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=SZd13566&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.156839037.7326637.1558808391-92375793.1535224975

In Dartmouth Street same as census
John - father John both Blacksmiths spelt Lee
Margaret Rogers father William

Chrissie Smiff
28-05-19, 13:42
Are you sure your grandfather wasn't born Frederick George Lee in March 1868. This looks very much like the family to me

1851 - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=8860&h=9121434&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

1871 - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=7619&h=2839142&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8860

1881 - https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=7572&h=22272329&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7619

and Frederick George marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/4994/40458_316740-00122?pid=2707577&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti%3D5538%26indiv%3Dtry%26db%3Dbirminghamp arishmarriage%26h%3D2707577&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.75293266.1968028173.1558947270-445886159.1554137090

Katarzyna
28-05-19, 14:29
Yes that was what was confusing me too.
LEE, FREDERICK GEORGE mmn PUGH
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 28

What I don't understand is why he would have given Broseley as POB on 1871 census. It seems an obscure place to give if he didn't have any association with it.
Can I ask how it was established that Edward had a brother called Francis. I don't see a connection.

cbcarolyn
28-05-19, 16:54
Yes that was what was confusing me too.
LEE, FREDERICK GEORGE mmn PUGH
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 28

What I don't understand is why he would have given Broseley as POB on 1871 census. It seems an obscure place to give if he didn't have any association with it.
Can I ask how it was established that Edward had a brother called Francis. I don't see a connection.

Yes that has Vera and I stumped. I did wonder if they moved as small children, so feel like Birmingham is their birthplace. but Francis has put other counties as his birth, so even odder.

see post 14

cbcarolyn
29-05-19, 09:34
including the latest John Lee with his parent as John Lee, all 3 marriages are after 1841, yet can't find an obvious John Lee in 1841 census. None state that he is deceased, which I assume they would?

Janet in Yorkshire
29-05-19, 12:29
including the latest John Lee with his parent as John Lee, all 3 marriages are after 1841, yet can't find an obvious John Lee in 1841 census. None state that he is deceased, which I assume they would?

Should, rather than would, I think! Information given often depends upon the wording of the questioner - "and the name of your father? And his occupation?" could truthfully be responded to as "John Smith; farm labourer." If the second question was "What is his occupation/ what does he do for a living?" then the appropriate answer would be that the father was deceased but had formerly been a farm labourer.

Jay

gracemegan
30-05-19, 12:32
their marriage in 1846, and every census after, its his birth I am trying to find. need his parents

gracemegan
30-05-19, 13:06
sorry for confusion. hope this may help. 1901 census has following reservoir terrace Ladywood
George lee head 32
Elizabeth lee nee evans [my grandparents] age 28
Frederick son age 5
percy age 3
then maud may was born 1901 followed by dorris Dorothy and daisy Winifred.

vera2013
30-05-19, 15:59
Hello Gracemegan

I note that Frederick George born to Edward and Ann Maria (Maria) Lee was in later census known as just George Lee, your grandfather.

To help track the name of the parents of your Great grandfather, Edward Lee, please let us have any information you have on Francis Lee to support him being the brother of Edward. I note that on their marriage records the father of Edward and Francis is given as John Lee, Blacksmith and that Francis and Sophia Lea were witnesses at the marriage of Edward and Ann Maria Lee.

Vera

gracemegan
31-05-19, 15:48
have a john lea blacksmith 28 and wife Elizabeth 25living with family of William and Elizabeth Rodgers in Dartmouth street aston
on birth certificate of francis lea born 1851 his mothers name is down as simpson [ her maiden name] ,but the marriage certificate of Sophia and francis in 1844 her maiden name is given as Rodgers but the witnesses were William and Elizabeth simpson. but it is more the lees I am looking for.

cbcarolyn
31-05-19, 21:02
We are trying to locate the birth place for Edward and Francis so that we can try and find their parents, I think we are all confused how you know that these 2 are brothers, have you seen documents that tie them together as brothers?

dob 1824 Francis has Worcester city in the 1861 and 1871 census
dob 1823 to 1828 Edward has Birmingham in census 1851, 1861 and 1881 and Broseley, Shropshire, England in 1871

dob 1813 John Lea can only find 1841 census born in county

vera2013
01-06-19, 14:39
dob 1813 John Lea can only find 1841 census born in county

Just for info. I have tracked John Lee and Margaret through the census.
Dob's vary
1851
John Lees 48 Smith b Birmingham
Margaret Lees 40 ?Overey, Birmingham
Edward Detheridge, 38, Lodger, Labourer b Birmingham - marries Margaret 1873
Living 3 Lower H? street, Birmingham St Lukes

John Lee dies between 1851 and 1861. There are x 3 possible deaths on FMP.

1861
M Lee Widow, 44 Steel ? Maker b Birmingham
William Rogers Widower, 89, Wire Drawer b Wales
Edward Detheridge 42 Boarder, Labourer b Birmingham
Living Blk 6, Lower ? Fazeley St, Birmingham St John

1873 Marriage of Margaret and Edward Detheridge
St Peters & St Paul 24/08/1873
Witnesses Joseph & Mary Smith

1881 Edward Detheridge b 1819 aged 62 dies Aston reg
1883 Margaret Deatheridge b 1813 aged 70. Birmingham Witton Cemetery

Still nothing obvious to me to link Edward, Francis and John as brothers.

Vera

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 17:38
Like you Vera I am not seeing anything to make them brothers apart with sharing same fathers name, I suppose it does mean that they could be cousins. But can't see how Francis can be born in a different place, when ages are so close.

I suppose their deaths won't be able to tell us anything new, unless they outlived their spouses.

Not found a likely death for Edward, can see a milkman, at right age and right place, but that doesn't fit really, unless he had a late career change.

vera2013
01-06-19, 18:17
Anything is possible with Edward

Just found Edward and Maria with George and Maria on 1891. Edward b Swindon! and not a mistranscribe.

I did browse Broseley baps. Only one Lee recorded between 1813-1833

If a death can be pinpointed for Edward, Francis and John, the cert may give some clues in the absence of any record so far moving things on

Vera

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 19:07
That 1891 puts him at same address as last few census - Summer Hill Street, so rules him out as the milkman!

for info here is the probate I found, wife Maria 71 Grosvenor Street West
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_221802-00090/4423547?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222103426647/facts/citation/742147024480/edit/record
kellys
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2583/m0445a-00450/6009832?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222103426647/facts/citation/742147026031/edit/record

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 19:16
was trying to see if Swindon should be something else. I have a relative that was born in chooksberry as written on census....Tewkesbury to the rest of us!

vera2013
01-06-19, 19:25
That is a tempting one. However a large sum of money for someone who was previously a General Labourer. Oh see you have eliminated.

I can see d Maria as Head living with a Lodger in 1901.
Would have expected her to be with parents.

There are 2 deaths for Edward and Maria but dobs way out

Maria buried April, 1894 Witton Cemetery. GRO aged 63
Edward buried May 1897 Witton Cemetery. GRO aged 68

If them likely George would be informant

Vera

vera2013
01-06-19, 19:59
Possible death for Francis. 2nd wife Hannah Haines a widow in 1891.

Francis Lee Dec Q 1883 Birmingham aged 56.
Buried Witton Cemetery December 1883.

Vera

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 20:14
have found this:

"Swindon is a village and civil parish located in Staffordshire, just outside the West Midlands conurbation. The nearest major town is Dudley, approximately five miles eastwards. It stands halfway between the small town of Kingswinford and village of Wombourne."

vera2013
01-06-19, 20:30
That does look promising. Will have another look.
He may have arrived in Birmingham at a young age. Wonder is that near Worcester

Vera

cbcarolyn
01-06-19, 23:20
it maybe clutching at straws...have marked on maps, including kidderminster, just to get some idea where everything is


.20105

20106

gracemegan
02-06-19, 12:15
yes that is all i have to go on i am afraid.

gracemegan
02-06-19, 12:16
its not to far away.

gracemegan
02-06-19, 12:28
there is a swynnerton in Staffordshire.

vera2013
02-06-19, 13:35
Swynnerton is 40 miles North of Swindon, Staffs. So not too far between the two for back in the day. However note Swindon very close to Dudley.

Pretty sure Francis Lea remarries in 1875 after ?Sophia's death in 1874 to Hannah Haines a Widow. He gives father as Francis on mc a Forger.

FMP have Swindon records but late for parents marriage or bap of Edward. No death for likely parents either. So they possibly died Birmingham.

Will check out Swynnerton for an Edward bap


Vera

cbcarolyn
02-06-19, 13:37
yes that is all i have to go on i am afraid.
how do you know that Francis and Edward are brothers?

cbcarolyn
02-06-19, 13:41
Pretty sure Francis Lea remarries in 1875 after ?Sophia's death in 1874 to Hannah Haines a Widow. He gives father as Francis on mc a Forger.


Vera

So Francis no longer son of John, how odd. Or maybe he was John Francis.

gracemegan
03-06-19, 08:28
afraid they have had me baffled for years.