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Darksecretz
26-04-19, 07:59
This is the first time I have ever come across it but a death isn't recorded in the index yet I have her burial.

Would there be another way to get the info to add it to my tree?

I guess what I'm asking is would there be another place for the GRO index to be able to order a cert/pdf should I wish.

Clara Horsely aged 29 buried 18th May 1850 Kirkby in Ashfield. It would more likely be in BASFORD district. [Nottinghamshire]


thank you

cbcarolyn
26-04-19, 09:24
don't forget the GRO is a transcription of the transcription of the original record! have you tried lots of different spellings?

the local office will have original transcription and certificate, you could try there. what service do they offer, they might hve a look for free if you have exact burial date.

GallowayLass
26-04-19, 09:48
I could quite believe that Julie. I am still looking in vain for the death of a Charles Morrey born in Nantwich reg district. Birth and baptism found. Another Charles is born 1864 reg and baptism found but no death of the first one. Have tried every variant of both names I can think of. An elder sister, Sarah Ellen is baptised and on 1861 census but her birth reg is likewise missing. Neither are illegitimate as parents married 1854, cert seen.

Katarzyna
26-04-19, 09:53
don't forget the GRO is a transcription of the transcription of the original record! have you tried lots of different spellings?

the local office will have original transcription and certificate, you could try there. what service do they offer, they might hve a look for free if you have exact burial date.
Not quite true Caroline :)
Quote from GRO:
The GRO online historic birth and death indexes have been created using our 130 million digitised records (rather than microfiche indexes)

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 10:34
Thanks everyone,

I have tried just first name, last name and any number of combinations :(

I should add that I have also checked the actual images of the index too and it isn't there.

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8914/ONS_D18501AZ-0214?pid=10506044&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DUJA8477%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dfreebmddeat h%26gsfn%3DClara%26cp%3D11%26_83004003-n_xcl%3Dm%26msbdy%3D1821%26msbpn__ftp%3Dheanor,%25 20derbyshire,%2520england,%2520united%2520kingdom% 26msbpn%3D82842%26msddy%3D1850%26msdpn__ftp%3DKirk by%2520in%2520Ashfield,%2520Nottinghamshire,%2520E ngland%26ssrc%3Dpt_t157323521_p232067555170%26qh%3 Di3gSmMu/xLEShW09nWeE0Q%253D%253D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26ui dh%3Dlg3%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D34%26fh%3D7%26h%3D10506044%26recoff%3D% 26ml_rpos%3D8&ssrc=pt_t157323521_p232067555170&treeid=157323521&personid=232067555170&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UJA8477&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=ONS_D18502AZ-0331

bubblebelle
26-04-19, 11:14
Sorry, like you, I haven't come up with anything. I noted she was with a Chadbourne family in 1841 and even tried that surname. If you hadn't got a burial date, I would have wondered if she was an 'unknown female/male'. Living by the sea you sometimes see stones commemorating the discovery of an unknown drowned body.

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 11:23
Sorry, like you, I haven't come up with anything. I noted she was with a Chadbourne family in 1841 and even tried that surname. If you hadn't got a burial date, I would have wondered if she was an 'unknown female/male'. Living by the sea you sometimes see stones commemorating the discovery of an unknown drowned body.

Yes, I know what you mean Mandy, Clara was Sarah Horsley's neice [and this whole family is a blooming nightmare!] I have been struggling for days with this family!

teasie
26-04-19, 11:53
It doesn't happen often, but it is possible that no death certificate was issued. I have a similar problem in my husband's tree - I know the exact date & address where someone died and also when/where they were buried, but not even the local register office has a record of a death certificate having been issued.

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 12:08
It doesn't happen often, but it is possible that no death certificate was issued. I have a similar problem in my husband's tree - I know the exact date & address where someone died and also when/where they were buried, but not even the local register office has a record of a death certificate having been issued.

Thanks Teasie,

I may find the time tomorrow morning to nip to the library and see if I can glean any other info from the Prs. I suspect that the local register office would charge for looking.

Olde Crone Holden
26-04-19, 12:12
Before 1875 it was quite possible to bury someone without a death registration certificate so it may just be that the death was not registered. Trivial fact - there were more false registrations of death than you might imagine, because burial clubs and insurance companes wanted a death registration cert. It was largely due to this widespread fraud that the registration act was changed and a death had to be certified by a doctor.

OC

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 12:59
Before 1875 it was quite possible to bury someone without a death registration certificate so it may just be that the death was not registered. Trivial fact - there were more false registrations of death than you might imagine, because burial clubs and insurance companes wanted a death registration cert. It was largely due to this widespread fraud that the registration act was changed and a death had to be certified by a doctor.

OC

Ahh thanks OC, I have fired off an email to the relevant office to see if they can help. If not, then she'll have to stay un registered! :smilee:

cbcarolyn
26-04-19, 13:55
Not quite true Caroline :)
Quote from GRO:
The GRO online historic birth and death indexes have been created using our 130 million digitised records (rather than microfiche indexes)

Do they mean they have created from the copy certs, not sure what that means. If that is the case then they are relying on OCR like the newspapers? Can't mean that - the handwriting is bad on many.

The index that GRO maintains, is from a list sent by each reg office, and that list has already been transcribed by reg office to submit. Now the reg office is all digital the list is created digitally and submitted. Couple of years since I last did any work on this so might have been changed. Certainly that is how the historic records were created, they had no computers to get them in alpha order for the whole country :)

cbcarolyn
26-04-19, 13:57
Ahh thanks OC, I have fired off an email to the relevant office to see if they can help. If not, then she'll have to stay un registered! :smilee:

the index is the transcription, so can be erroneous.

cbcarolyn
26-04-19, 14:11
They could have died elsewhere and buried at home? I had a funny birth where they were added to the index later, as it must have been missed off. Not sure how I found that.

Mind you they would still be on the national index, so ignore me.

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 14:31
ah well, just got an email back and they have searched in all the sub districts and she isn't there, so looks like whomever sorted her death didnt register her

thanks everyone

Anne in Carlisle
26-04-19, 16:39
My ggg grandfather was definitely buried (I have the date and details from the PR) but I have never found a death certificate. This was in the 1850s
Anne

Janet in Yorkshire
26-04-19, 16:40
Could there have had to be an inquest causing the death to have been registered at a later date and some time after the burial?

(The information at registration is only as good as the knowledge of the informant.)

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
26-04-19, 16:44
I have found neither a burial nor a birth registration for the older half-sister of my great-grandmother, believed to have married in 1859 and then vanished without a trace.

Jay

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 17:17
My ggg grandfather was definitely buried (I have the date and details from the PR) but I have never found a death certificate. This was in the 1850s
Anne

yep mine was 1850 too.


I know what you mean Jay, though I wouldn't have a clue exactly what newspapers would have been about in those days, or how to search them for that matter, I don't have a sub to british newspapers or whatever it's called

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 17:18
I have found neither a burial nor a birth registration for the older half-sister of my great-grandmother, believed to have married in 1859 and then vanished without a trace.

Jay

some folk just don't want to be found.... Clara's aunt was baptised Alpha Horsley, but she was known/died as Sarah.. lord knows why!

cbcarolyn
26-04-19, 17:23
That is good that the reg office looked. At least you know it isn't there!

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 17:55
That is good that the reg office looked. At least you know it isn't there!

true, but still annoying that there isn't one...lol.. oh well, I guess i'll have to see if there was anything in a newspaper about it, though I'm not hopeful.

Lin Fisher
26-04-19, 18:01
Just looked up newspapers for Mansfield and Nottingham 1850 on FMP. Nothing showing for her. Sorry.

Darksecretz
26-04-19, 18:08
Just looked up newspapers for Mansfield and Nottingham 1850 on FMP. Nothing showing for her. Sorry.

aww bless you Lin thank you x

teasie
26-04-19, 19:01
Before 1875 it was quite possible to bury someone without a death registration certificate
OC

Not entirely correct - see Section 27: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1836_(33)_Registration_of_Births_%26c._A_bill_for_ registering_Births_Deaths_and_Marriages_in_England

Death certificates were still required before burial unless ordered by a Coroner

".....every Person who shall bury or perform any Funeral or any religious Service for the Burial of any dead Body for which no Certificate shall have been duly made and delivered as aforesaid, either by the Registrar or Coroner, and who shall not within Seven Days give Notice thereof to the Registrar, shall forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds for every such Offence"

GallowayLass
26-04-19, 19:20
...every Person who shall bury or perform any Funeral or any religious Service for the Burial of any dead Body for which no Certificate shall have been duly made and delivered as aforesaid, either by the Registrar or Coroner, and who shall not within Seven Days give Notice thereof to the Registrar, shall forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds for every such Offence"

Now that’s a terrifying bit of info. I can just imagine the loads of women and the mentally ill and severely disabled who could have technically been “dispatched” and buried without anyone knowing about it. The rich and powerful could easily pay £10 to the undertaker should he need to pay a fine. I doubt there would be many such fines paid as nobody would dare tell tales. If my thoughts are not too far fetched, I bet there would be a some poor souls never buried in a graveyard at all but in some far flung corner of a great estate.

Olde Crone Holden
26-04-19, 20:15
There is a very interesting book called, I think, the Victorian Poisoner, a scholarly work which tells how easy it was to get away with murder, usually by poisoning, in the early years of civil registration, because it was not necessary to provide proof of death in order to register a death, nor was it necessary to provide a death cert before burial. What should have happened and wht did happen, was miles apart - vicars had better things to do than check whether someone was going to register a death or not. Remember that burial had to take place very quickly in those days.

OC

GallowayLass
26-04-19, 20:32
Scary indeed OC. Bad old times when there was little chance of the Harold Shipman’s of this world ever getting caught. And if no cause of death was required for a burial then my nightmare scenario feels even more real.

kylejustin
27-04-19, 00:07
My 4th great grandmother died in 1863 and was buried but no death cert. Had the local and general register offices look. No dice.

I thought the law was changed because of a black widow case? She killed like 5 husbands?

Darksecretz
27-04-19, 07:42
My 4th great grandmother died in 1863 and was buried but no death cert. Had the local and general register offices look. No dice.

I thought the law was changed because of a black widow case? She killed like 5 husbands?

Not sure Kyle but according to mr man at the reg office as it was pre 1875 it wasn't compulsory so therefore her death wouldn't have been registered.

I knew about 1875 for births but presumed that deaths would have to be registered?

AntonyM
27-04-19, 08:02
".....every Person who shall bury or perform any Funeral or any religious Service for the Burial of any dead Body for which no Certificate shall have been duly made and delivered as aforesaid, either by the Registrar or Coroner, and who shall not within Seven Days give Notice thereof to the Registrar, shall forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds for every such Offence"

What that actually says is that IF a burial took place before the death had been registered, the registrar or coroner had to be notified within 7 days. It doesn't prohibit the burial from taking place.

In 1875, the new B&D Act tightened things up by requiring medical certificates.

Even today, it isn't uncommon for a registrar to regsiter a death AFTER the funeral has taken place - Coroners often allow that (and so can a registrar), even in cases which don't go to inquest.

teasie
27-04-19, 10:18
Thanks Antony

The questions is about registration though, so what I was perhaps clumsily trying to say is that there was still a legal requirement for the Registrar to be notified of the burial, and for the registrar to obtain all of the relevant information and issue a death certificate, even if this was after the burial.

cbcarolyn
27-04-19, 13:34
And here is an explanation of what I was trying to say about the GRO indexes, that there could be errors from its journey from original certificate to a central alphabetical list:

(just about Lancs - but same applies to all registers)

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/differences.html


Civil Registration and the GRO Indexes


From 1 July 1837 all births, marriages and deaths were registered locally and the registers have been retained by the local register office ever since.


Every quarter each register office submitted copies of all births, marriages and deaths registered during the preceding three months to the Registrar General at the General Register Office (GRO) in London. These copies were bound into volumes and name indexes made of the name of each person born, married or deceased identifying the volume number and page within that volume on which the name appears. These indexes are variously known as GRO indexes or St. Catherine's House indexes (from the building where they were housed for many years).


The original GRO index books have always been open to free public inspection and in more recent years copies have been made widely available on microfilm and microfiche. More recently still, they have been published on commercial websites such as www.findmypast.com and www.ancestry.co.uk


The copy registers are today held by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) and copies of any entry may be purchased from them (in the form of a birth, marriage or death certificate) by quoting the details from the index and paying the appropriate fee.


What is the problem with this?
The GRO indexes were compiled from copies of the original register entries. Errors and omissions could and did occur both in the copying of the register entries and in the compilation of the indexes. To compound these problems, the original manuscript index books were copied into typed indexes and further errors and omissions introduced. As if this was not enough, when the index books were filmed, pages were occasionally missed and some of the images are not always completely legible. In consequence, it may prove difficult, if not impossible, to find reference to some events. An excellent discussion and further explanation of the benefits of using the original indexes instead of the secondary GRO indexes can be found in the comprehensive article by Tony Foster.


Where does LancashireBMD fit in?
LancashireBMD is a free on-line index to births, marriages and deaths registered in the county of Lancashire (as defined before the local government reorganisation of 1974). It is compiled by volunteers from the original registration books which are still held by the local register offices. By working from the original registers, it is possible to produce indexes which are considerably more complete and accurate than the GRO indexes. Copies of any register entry may be purchased from the local register office by quoting the details provided by LancashireBMD and paying the appropriate fee.

Darksecretz
27-04-19, 15:13
That's very informative Carolyn thank you :smilee:

AntonyM
27-04-19, 18:21
Thanks Antony

The questions is about registration though, so what I was perhaps clumsily trying to say is that there was still a legal requirement for the Registrar to be notified of the burial, and for the registrar to obtain all of the relevant information and issue a death certificate, even if this was after the burial.

Yes - but that doesn't mean it always happened.

Katarzyna
28-04-19, 10:02
And here is an explanation of what I was trying to say about the GRO indexes, that there could be errors from its journey from original certificate to a central alphabetical list:

(just about Lancs - but same applies to all registers)

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/differences.html
Partial quote from above: What is the problem with this?
The GRO indexes were compiled from copies of the original register entries. Errors and omissions could and did occur both in the copying of the register entries and in the compilation of the indexes. To compound these problems, the original manuscript index books were copied into typed indexes and further errors and omissions introduced. As if this was not enough, when the index books were filmed, pages were occasionally missed and some of the images are not always completely legible. In consequence, it may prove difficult, if not impossible, to find reference to some events

You will have noticed that what you have quoted was written in 2010 - that was the case for the original GRO registers but not the "new" GRO indexes. There has been a transcription involved of course. I do agree the county transcriptions are likely to be more accurate and just wish the counties for my ancestors had these transcriptions.:)

Olde Crone Holden
28-04-19, 12:23
Kat

You aren't missing much!

I have three different copies of the marriage cert of my 2 x GGPs who married in church in Manchester in 1859.

1 is a handwritten copy made by me many years ago from the church register. The writing in the register was easy to read so I doubt I made any errors in transcription.

2. Is the certificate obtained from the local register office about 30 years ago, a handwritten contemporary copy.

3. Is the certificate obtained from the GRO about 25 years ago, photocopy of their register.

These three certificates differ markedly. The street address has gone from Smith St to South St, the groom is a widower on one, a bachelor on another and his bride is a widow. Their father' first names have been transposed and the couple's ages are wrong.

Fortunately for me I was able to establish the truth before I saw the two later certs but my contact who only had the GRO copy was stumped!

It all boils down to the old adage about needing three pieces of evidence to prove a single fact. In this case, a lot more than three pieces of evidence were needed.

OC

cbcarolyn
29-04-19, 20:29
You will have noticed that what you have quoted was written in 2010 - that was the case for the original GRO registers but not the "new" GRO indexes. There has been a transcription involved of course. I do agree the county transcriptions are likely to be more accurate and just wish the counties for my ancestors had these transcriptions.:)
So did they get the info from the copy certs? I don't understand what records they have used. Shame that the funding has stopped for the rest of the records.

cbcarolyn
29-04-19, 21:12
have just read something that confirms this is the case. :)