Can anyone join the dots?

[Karamazov]

I've had this on the back burner for several years but still can't join the dots. Sorry for the length, but here goes...
John Harry Littler, b 6 Jun 1809 in Bengal, supposedly the son of Sir John Hunter Littler GCB 1783-1856 - although all the online biogs for Sir J have him marrying just the once in 1827, so perhaps John Harry was illegitimate.
John Harry becomes an army surgeon, retiring to England in 1865 with the rank of Surgeon-Major.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61103/46173_302022005561_1742-00227?pid=2778&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D61103%26h%3D2778%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DgdB11204%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gdB11204&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

In both the 1871 and 1881 censuses he is living at the Charing Cross Hotel in London and dies there on 22 Oct 1883. He did not marry.
He leaves a substantial estate of over £41,000.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_222804-00558?pid=1810581&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1904%26h%3D1810581%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DgdB11206%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gdB11206&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

How on earth did he accumulate so much as an army surgeon? From an online calculator it seems this would be the equivalent of over £3.5 million today. (I used moneysorter.co.uk - not sure how reliable its calculations are.)

The next dot - Marianne Ducker, born 1849, Great Boughton, Cheshire, daughter of Edward Ducker and Marianne Platt. In 1881 she is with John Harry at the Charing Cross Hotel. At the end of 1883 she officially changes her name to Marianne Ducker Littler to comply with a clause in John Harry's will.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/25303/page/1/data.pdf

She is back with her parents in Bowdon, Cheshire in 1891 and on 3 April 1893 she marries my widowed 2g uncle Robert Hill (1847-1900) in Bowdon. He was as an inland revenue officer. I can't now find the Gazette notice where he too changes his surname to Hill Littler when they marry.
She dies exactly 4 months later on 3 Aug 1893 in Belfast -

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05988/4703217.pdf

She leaves nearly £38,000 in her will so it looks like she inherited most, if not all, of John Harry's estate.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_221802-00124/4445745?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/38459508/person/20483970037/facts/citation/140120367211/edit/record

I feel sure that there is some sort of family connection back in Cheshire between John Harry and Marianne but just can't pin down what it is. (His father's family had their roots there in Tarvin according to various info online.)

Questions:
Can anybody pin down a family connection or some other connection between John Harry and Marianne?
Can anyone find any more info around John Harry's birth and parentage?
If anyone finds the notice of Robert Hill changing his name to Robert Hill Littler, please could you post the link?
I've never had occasion to get hold of an English will - how do I go about it and what does it cost? I'm sorely tempted!
Thanks.
Christine

[Guest]

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills have a look here ,you get them delivered online £10 each

in fact his is hereLittler.JPG for some reason the page wont copy

maybe he worked as a private surgeon too

[Olde Crone Holden]

I have several illegitimate people in my tree who had rich and important fathers, who supported them and left them a big wodge without ever officially acknowledging paternity, so I would think it is the same in this case. Perhaps Marianne and John Harry were half siblings? Mine were, but obviously knew the truth as they were often "visitors" to each other's homes.

OC

[cbcarolyn]

looks like an interesting tree. Have you searched the british newspaper archive for any other references? can see a few mentions, although mainly around his death.

Are there any wills on fmp? I don't have a sub but read somewhere that they were getting more on there.

Not going to library this week, so can't check for you.

[Frazzled]

Christine, the will of Sir John H Littler is on FMP, there might be a mention of leaving money to John Harry. I'm late for work so can't send it now. If no-one else sends it to you I will forward it this evening

[Karamazov]

Christine, the will of Sir John H Littler is on FMP, there might be a mention of leaving money to John Harry. I'm late for work so can't send it now. If no-one else sends it to you I will forward it this evening

Thanks Caroline. I found it in the PR wills on Ancestry in the early hours of this morning but will be able to access it until Ancestry's free access ends tomorrow. The writing style is not the easiest to decipher but on a cursory glance I didn't see any mention of John Harry although he mentions the first son of his marriage as his "eldest" son.
I have to go out now, but if anyone else wants to have a look and pull out the key info in the meantime, it's here:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311577-00557?pid=681933&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true#?_phcmd=u('https:%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2Fsearch%2Fcategories%2F36%2F%3Fname%3DSir%2BJohn%2BHenry_Littler%26birth%3D1783%26count%3D50%26name_x%3D_s%26successSource%3DSearch','successSource')&imageId=40611_311577-00557

Thanks,
Christine

[Karamazov]

I have several illegitimate people in my tree who had rich and important fathers, who supported them and left them a big wodge without ever officially acknowledging paternity, so I would think it is the same in this case. Perhaps Marianne and John Harry were half siblings? Mine were, but obviously knew the truth as they were often "visitors" to each other's homes.

OC

They definitely weren't half-siblings OC.
There is a 40 year age gap between them for a start, plus I can track her in every census from 1851, her parents's marriage and the baptisms of a whole slew of children. Besides which Sir John H was busy in India fathering loads of legitimate children at the time!
I'm inclined to think Sir John H may well have supported John Harry's early medical studies in Glasgow etc.

Christine

[ozgirl]

Announcement of Robert Hill taking the name Hill - Littler

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive....30802/016/0005

Belfast news Letter August 2 1893. It states the announcement had been in "last night's London Gazette".

[Karamazov]

Well, I've ploughed through Sir J H's will and there is no mention of John Harry. The only people mentioned by name as beneficiaries are his wife Helen Olympia (nee Stewart) and two sons by this marriage, John Mount Stewart Littler and Robert Littler.
However, tenth line down on third page: "And I appoint my said dear wife and my daughter Helen Littler and Edward Ducker of Chester Esquire to be the trustees and executors..."

This is presumably the same Edward Ducker who was Marianne's father???
So I still feel there is some sort of family connection rooted in Cjeshire which remains stubbornly out of reach...
Christine

[Karamazov]

Although I have no connection with the Littlers, they are an interesting family - some further background on Helen Olympia and her children with Sir J - no 125 onwards in this link: http://www.islandregister.com/stewart2.html

[ozgirl]

I think I have found a connection, but not fully researched yet - Marianne Platt, mother of Marianne Ducker was the daughter of James Platt and Diana Littler. Diana was born in Nantwich Cheshire in 1786, daughter of Thomas Littler. Her brother was John Hunter Littler. If you can see it, this tree on Ancestry gives details.

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree...13377896/facts

Still not sure how John Harry Littler fits though!

[cbcarolyn]

I downloaded one of these...sadly forgot which one, as was in library briefly this morning, and have sent on.

But not a will as far as I can see.

littler fmp.JPG

[ozgirl]

Not definite proof, but this book of Roll of Indian Medical Service does state that John Harry is the son of John Hunter.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

[Karamazov]

Hi Linda - yes, that's the very first link I posted in post 1!
Since then Carolyn has forwarded me a document she found on FMP this morning re John Harry's 1842 application to be an assistant surgeon with the East India Company. Very interesting in that it confirms that Sir John H is John Harry's father and supported his petition/application to be an assistant surgeon and that at the time (1842) John Harry was the ward of what looks like B Roberts.

Thanks for all your help - I can't view that family tree you posted in post 11 but from what you say, it looks like that gives the Ducker/Littler family connection.
So that would make John Harry and Marianne's mum first cousins, wouldn't it? Which would then mean that John Harry and Marianne Ducker Littler were first cousins once removed.
And that Edward Ducker, Marianne's father, and one of the executors of Sir John Hinter Littler's will was Sir John's nephew by marriage. Have I got all that right?
Phew!

Christine

[ozgirl]

Sorry. missed that first link. Yes that's correct about the relationship between John Harry and Marianne Platt. Have e-mailed you.