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help with a 'brick wall' in research: Thomas Harper

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  • help with a 'brick wall' in research: Thomas Harper

    Hi guys,
    I hope some of you will be able to help me with the following 'brick wall' in my research. on a Thomas Harper
    The facts about him are rather few, but I'll start with those

    In the 1911 census, Thomas lived in Barker's Yard, York, with his wife, Christiana Oliver and their 3 daughters. According to the census, Thomas was about 30 years old and was born in Bishop Wilton, near Pocklington, East Yorks. He was a farm labourer.

    He and Christiana were married in January 1907 at Clifton Parish Church, York. His father was Thomas Harper, labourer, deceased. One of the witnesses was a J. Harper. Thomas himself was described as a farmer, living in Rawcliffe, York.

    Thomas died in Stobhill Hospital Glasgow on the 2nd Sept 1919, aged 39, of heart failure. His parents were Thomas Harper, labourer, deceased and Mary Richmond, deceased. Thomas had been in the army. Firstly in the East Yorkshire Regt. no. 19302 and latterly in the RAOC, no. 040415. He is buried in Fulford Cemetery, York.

    The first mystery is his parents. The only couple I've been able to find, with those names,who married each other, were a Thomas Harper & Mary Richmond who were married in Church, near Accrington in 1844. Although they had a son called Thomas, he grew up to be a tailor and seems to have lived all his life in Accrington. Similarly, I can find nothing to suggest that Thomas and Mary ever came to Yorkshire. I cannot find Thomas on the civil births lists, well, no one I can identify as him. I also cannot find him or anyone who might be him, on the 1891/1901 census returns. I have considered that his name may have been mis-spelled as Harker, or Harpur or even Barker, but that has not led me anywhere. Maybe he was living somewhere else in the country other than Yorkshire, in those years. I am also wondering if his mother's name was written wrongly and was not Richmond at all, though they had his address in York correct and I assume they got this information from his army records.

    I have truly reached a brick wall and would appreciate any help
    Scotia

  • #2
    Off the wall, but perhaps he was illegitimate and his grandparents brought him up? Mary Richmond would have been too old to be his mother.

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      These Harpers born Pocklington area around the right time mothers maiden name Robinson. Had your Mary perhaps been married before.
      What does their marriage cert say?
      The thing is I cannot find this family on the censuses either!


      HARPER, THOMAS WALKER mmn ROBINSON
      GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 67
      HARPER, JAMES PERCY mmn ROBINSON
      GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 70
      HARPER, WILLIAM BERTIE mmn ROBINSON
      GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 70
      HARPER, FLORRY mmn ROBINSON
      GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 63

      Edit: Sorry you won't have that Marriage cert. Perhaps look for a Harper/ Davidson marriage around 1880?
      Last edited by Katarzyna; 13-01-19, 16:25.
      Kat

      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

      Comment


      • #4
        A possibility???
        I suspect that perhaps Thomas may have come from an atypical family. I looked in 1891 census for a Thomas born Bishop Wilton c1881, with a possible Richmond (surname, not place!) connection

        John Richmond & family; household includes 1 Conway niece and 2 nephews - George, Sarah & Thomas.
        GRO birth index shows Thomas Conway registered 1881 Pocklington dist (this includes Bishop Wilton) mmn Richmond.
        In 1881 baby Thomas was in Bishop Wilton with his family

        Note different surnames within the family. James born 1876 Leeds & Sarah b BW 1877 mmn Richmond. Sorry, haven't time to search further at present and this may not work out to be your man.

        ETA - there is also a Harper connection, see post above.

        Jay
        Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 13-01-19, 17:58.
        Janet in Yorkshire



        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

        Comment


        • #5
          CONWAY, SARAH MARY mmn RICHMOND
          GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 67

          CONWAY, THOMAS HENRY mmn RICHMOND
          GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 69

          CONWAY, SARAH MARY mmn RICHMOND
          GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 67

          CONWAY, LIZZIE mmn RICHMOND
          GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 69

          CONWAY, JAMES mmn RICHMOND
          GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 529 Order
          Kat

          My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

          Comment


          • #6
            how about this one in 1881 could be Thomas Conway
            look at the name third one down Richmond Harper ???

            1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
            ?, Bishop Wilton with Belthorpe, Pocklington, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (East Riding), England

            Thomas Conway Head Married Male 61 1820 Laborer Agr Galway, Ireland
            Mary Conway Wife Married Female 40 1841 - Bishop Wilton, Yorkshire, England
            Richmund Harper Son Single Male 12 1869 - Castleford, Yorkshire, England
            George Wm Conway ((Harper)) Son Single Male 7 1874 Scholar Bishop Wilton, Yorkshire, England
            James Conway Son Single Male 5 1876 Scholar Leeds, Yorkshire, England
            Sarah M Conway Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Bishop Wilton, Yorkshire, England
            Thomas Conway Son Single Male 0 1881 - Bishop Wilton, Yorkshire, England


            RG11
            Piece number 4731
            Folio 7
            Page 8

            oops you already have this
            Last edited by Guest; 13-01-19, 21:06.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well done Jay. They are the correct censuses for them. I wonder when they changed to Harper.
              I cannot at the moment find sons Richmond Harper or Geo Wm Harper/Conway births Pontefract and Pocklingtom or a marriage for Mary and Thomas.
              Mary Richmond 1841 Bishop Wilton Parents Sarah and John

              1851


              1871 Bishop Wilton
              Begin your discovery today by exploring the world's largest online family history resource!

              John Richmond 56
              Mary Duckwith 38 (image shows 30 not 38) widow
              John B Richmond 17
              John Duckwith 9
              Ada Duckwith 5
              Richmond Duckwith 2
              Last edited by Katarzyna; 13-01-19, 21:29.
              Kat

              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

              Comment


              • #8
                Registration Year: 1873
                Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
                Registration district: Pocklington
                Volume: 9d
                Page: 150
                Thomas Cornway
                Mary Duckwith

                DUCKWORTH, RICHMOND mmn RICHMOND
                GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 09C Page 100

                DUCKWORTH, GEORGE DUCKWORTH
                GRO Reference: 1873 M Quarter in BURY LANCASHIRE Volume 08C Page 500 - only one I can see???
                Last edited by Katarzyna; 13-01-19, 21:34.
                Kat

                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just to confuse matters more:

                  CORNWAY, GEORGE WILLIAM mmn WILSON
                  GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in POCKLINGTON Volume 09D Page 59

                  I think this will be the one rather than the Duckworth in Bury posted above.
                  Not sure how that works out as this birth is 2nd Qtr AFTER the marriage of Thomas and Mary? Any ideas? Maybe an illegitimate child that Thomas owned to but that was conceived before his marriage to Mary?
                  Kat

                  My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Could this be Mary Richmond in 1861?? Bishop Wilton is on the western slope of the Wolds; Withernsea is also in East Yorkshire, but on the east coast, some distance from BW. However, BW is given as place of birth.
                    Janet in Yorkshire



                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Parents of Mary:
                      John Richmond and Sarah Wilson. Marriage 11/11 1840
                      Marriage cert: Photo online at Ancestry. Several with this family on Ancestry

                      John Richmond marriage.jpg

                      This is becoming a bit convoluted.

                      Mary Richmond was illegitimate - Mary WILSON bap 22 April 1840

                      1840 bap Mary Wilson -Richmond.jpg

                      But she was registered as Mary Richmond Apr/Jun qtr 1840 Pocklington V23 P 69

                      Marriages Jun 1861
                      Duckitt William Penrose Pocklington 9d 134
                      WILSON Mary Pocklington 9d 134

                      Deaths Dec 1869
                      Duckworth William 35 Pontefract 9c 65 (Castleford where their last child Richmond was born is in this Reg District)

                      It looks as though she used her illegit maiden name of Wilson for her first born to Thomas Conway/Cornway and thereafter Richmond for the other children.

                      Does this make sense??
                      Last edited by Katarzyna; 14-01-19, 12:47. Reason: grammar!
                      Kat

                      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Makes perfect sense to me Kat, and good sleuthing on your part.
                        It's a similar scenario to that of the wife of one of my gt-gt grandfathers, who was married in 1858 to Sarah Holt (single, but daughter of George Kirby??) After the marriage Sarah was consistently recorded with her married surname, but I drew a blank trying to find the origins of Sarah Holt. There were only two possibilities, but one was too old and eventually I found her marriage to someone else. Thought I'd cracked it with the other one, but always had this tiny niggle at the back of my mind as pob didn't match that of my Sarah. Eventually I got to the CRO and found out that the second one died and was buried in her native village whilst still a teenager. So it was back to the drawing board. Finally tracked mine through the marriage witnesses, who turned out to be the aunt and cousin of Sarah Holt. Sarah was born in 1830 between the two marriages of her mother and was bp as Sarah Watson. In 1841 she was recorded with the surname of her step-father but by 1851 her mother had died and Sarah acted as housekeeper for the widowed step-father, recorded with her birth surname. The only time she was ever recorded as Sarah Holt was at her marriage - Holt was the maiden name of Sarah's mother before the marriage to Mr Watson; the father of one of the other Sarahs was surnamed Holt, as was the mother of the other Sarah. Both these were siblings of my Sarah's mother and so all 3 Sarahs were first cousins. The older witness was yet another Holt sibling. I suppose Sarah knew she didn't actually share her surname with her step-father nor with mother's first husband Mr Watson, so took her mother's maiden name instead. Once I'd sorted out all the complex relationships everything fell into place - consistently right place and year of birth.
                        I think the opening poster will have to draw up a few trees to confirm the relationships and various surnames.

                        Jay
                        Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 14-01-19, 14:35.
                        Janet in Yorkshire



                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes Jay, agree, I drew up a tree to follow this as it was getting so complicated.
                          All three sons of Thomas Conway changed their name from Conway to Harper between 1891 and 1901
                          For what reason one can only speculate. Not sure yet what happened to father Thomas Conway. It may have something to do with him. The only connection to a Harper was the entry for Richmond Harper in the 1881 census you found which turned out to be DUCKWORTH, RICHMOND mmn RICHMOND by her 1st husband. This entry must be a connection somehow to a Harper that the boys later used as their surname. Perhaps we will never know.
                          Here's my latest findings!

                          1891 census - 4 of the children were with John B Richmond their uncle at Bishop Wilton as Conway


                          BUT ALL 3 boys were living separately in Ottley, Yorkshire on 1901 census as Harper.
                          George married as Harper
                          Marriages Mar 1898
                          Gill Mary Ellen Wharfedale 9a 200
                          Harper George William Wharfedale 9a 200

                          1901 George Conway as Harper in Ottley (Ottley is in Wharfdale Reg Dist.)

                          1911 https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...15&usePUB=true

                          James Conway as Harper 1901 Ottley


                          Thomas Conway as Harper in Ottley
                          1901 https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource
                          Kat

                          My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi guys, wow! What a wonderful bunch of people you are! Thank you all so much for doing all this research for me. I have a lot to go on now that I didn't have before. Plenty of work for me to get on with now. Having singularly failed to find any trace of Thomas before he married, the idea of a change of name must be the correct one. It's a very complicated family tree, that's for sure! Mind you, I guess people could change their names quite the thing back then, as there wasn't the need to prove identity like there is now? Also I would imagine that most folks wouldn't have an actual birth certificate, didn't they have to be paid for?
                            Thanks all
                            Scotia

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I would definitely buy the marriage cert for Thomas Cornway and Mary Duckwith from the GRO - www.gro.gov.uk

                              Registration Year: 1873
                              Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
                              Registration district: Pocklington
                              Volume: 9d
                              Page: 150

                              Hopefully it will have his father's name and occupation and the witnesses could be useful too.
                              Let us know how you get on.
                              Kat

                              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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