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  • WW2 navy records

    really struggling to find any information at all on my uncle Oliver Nelson Born in Bolton 24 Dec 1913.
    all i know is that he started as a wireless operator and that he was on the escort ships on the Russian bound convoys.
    His ship was torpedoed and sunk only to be rescued, torpedoed and sunk again on the same day. when he finally left the Royal Navy his rank was Chief Petty Officer. I know the sailors serving on these escort ships were finally recognised by Russia in the 80s 90s and were awarded a gold Medal/star. Ive checked sites that i can get on but cant find nothing, any help please

  • #2
    So far as I know WW2 records are NOT online. Thye are still held by the Department.

    Close family members can request release of the records of someone who served, at a cost ......... that means spouse, child if spouse is dead but providing proof of death.

    I don't know if it extends any further than that, eg to nieces and nephews.
    My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

    Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

    Comment


    • #3
      Are you sure he was in the Royal Navy,? as I believed it was the Merchant Navy who escorted the Russian Convoys in WW2....my late father was in the Merchant Navy in WW2 and helped to escort the Russian Convoys, as for his Navy records , all I can say is good luck, I have spend many a year trying to get hold of my fathers, I visited the National maritime museum at Greenwich and was told his records could be , maybe! Cardiff, or Canada!! or else where, not much luck there..... thus I like you are stuck.....I remember the mention about The Russian's awarding a Gold medal/star. I was going to apply, but lost the details, so never did do it.......:(

      Lilly

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      • #4
        Snowywhite , to apply for WW2 Royal Navy Service Records after 1920 you need to fill in the form here. I think it is still £30.

        Get military records of service for the Royal Navy (including Royal Marines), British Army and Royal Air Force - who can apply, how long it takes, cost, how to apply.


        Lilly,
        A Convoy consisted of the Merchant Navy which carried the supplies and the Royal Navy, US and Royal Canadian Navies which were the escorts ie they protected the MN. My Dad was in the RN on the Russian Convoys and they were treacherous journeys in the winter.


        "The Arctic convoys of World War II were oceangoing convoys which sailed from the United Kingdom, Iceland, and North America to northern ports in the Soviet Union – primarily Arkhangelsk (Archangel) and Murmansk in Russia. There were 78 convoys between August 1941 and May 1945,[1] sailing via several seas of the Atlantic and Arctic oceans, with two gaps with no sailings between July and September 1942, and March and November 1943.

        About 1,400 merchant ships delivered essential supplies to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease program, escorted by ships of the Royal Navy, Royal Canadian Navy, and the U.S. Navy. Eighty-five merchant vessels and 16 Royal Navy warships (two cruisers, six destroyers, eight other escort ships) were lost. Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine lost a number of vessels including one battleship, three destroyers and at least 30 U-boats, and many aircraft. The convoys demonstrated the Allies' commitment to helping the Soviet Union, prior to the opening of a second front, and tied up a substantial part of Germany's naval and air forces."
        Last edited by Katarzyna; 16-11-18, 21:17.
        Kat

        My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

        Comment


        • #5
          thank you for all the help and guidance, Ill keep trying and keep everyone updated

          Comment


          • #6
            It's not just Merchant Navy who are eligible.

            This is the way to apply for the Arctic Star and it explains who can apply.



            My father applied on behalf of his deceased uncle to complete his set of medals. - all he had were his other Russian medals with the matching cards.
            Caroline
            Caroline's Family History Pages
            Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am not sure that W War 2 records are available to anyone at oresent even if you pay for them. Originally records were only available up to 1922 at TNA but recently Ancestry has put more records online that take my father's Naval Records to 1940 and gives me his pension details post 1945 until he was demobbed. These records were more informative rthan the records I obtained from MOD at a cost of £25 when I applied for them. However the MOD told me that the actual war years from 1940 to 1945 were not available even though I had paid for them and Ancersty still do not have the 1940 to 1945 records or my father. He was a serving RN person from 1919 t0 1945. I have his Medal entitlement from MOD but no ships he served on from 1940 to 1945. I am not worried because I know the ship he was on at that time.

              Janet
              Last edited by Janet; 18-11-18, 18:38.

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              • #8
                OH's father was in the RN during WW2.

                We have his personal record which he had to carry with him whenever he was ordered to another ship. He took it home with him after demob in 1945, and so it came down to OH

                But that is all it tells us .............

                name of ship, date posted there and date posted to another ship, and his conduct.

                Basically one legal size sheet of paper

                It doesn't tell us anything about where he served or what he did, except for his rank as Artificer.

                Luckily, he did talk about some parts of his service to his family, especially his son, so we have oral stories of some of the places he served ............. but not much on how much fighting any of the ships were involved in.
                My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sylvia C View Post
                  OH's father was in the RN during WW2.

                  We have his personal record which he had to carry with him whenever he was ordered to another ship. He took it home with him after demob in 1945, and so it came down to OH

                  But that is all it tells us .............

                  name of ship, date posted there and date posted to another ship, and his conduct.

                  Basically one legal size sheet of paper

                  It doesn't tell us anything about where he served or what he did, except for his rank as Artificer.

                  Luckily, he did talk about some parts of his service to his family, especially his son, so we have oral stories of some of the places he served ............. but not much on how much fighting any of the ships were involved in.
                  Yes that is interesting because I was told the following by MOD that

                  “Unfortunately there is a gap in your father’s record of service from the 8 June 1941, until his release date. This was primarily due to officers and ratings from the writers branch being seconded to more pressing duties ie the War effort”

                  I would imagine that would affect many service people in the RN at this time, not just my father so there may not be much in the way of records for that period of time, just the ships they served.

                  If men served on well known battleships like the Hood or Barham and others then there are websites for more information on such ships so you can build up pictures that way if you are not lucky enough to have an actual record. My father was attached to hospital ships during the actual war years and some of these ships have websites and more information is available on Hospital ships at the Wellcome Institute in London.

                  Janet
                  Last edited by Janet; 18-11-18, 20:44.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We know from what father-in-law said at various times that he served on several ships in the Mediterranean, he was an Artificer responsible for maintaining binoculars, gun sights etc (basically any type of optical equipment) ............. and as such was in a position to ream out officers who were stupid enough to leave their binoculars hanging in full sun for hours at a time, thus necessitating re-setting of the lenses.

                    I gather he was not slow in coming forward (as we used to say) about telling "some young whippersnapper off", as he called them :D

                    We know he was in Alexandria, Egypt at some point, because he brought back a necklace made of ivory for his wife, I now have it but daren't wear it because it is of course now illegal!

                    We know he was based in or around the Newcastle area at some point .........


                    But none of this is on that record.

                    Most of his moves are signed by either the Captain or Executive Officer.
                    My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                    Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Concur with Sylvia’s comments. The form was an S.459, for Australia it was A.S.459, front page consisted of personal details and inner pages postings and the relevant dates. Nowhere is there any indication of where you may have travelled during those postings.
                      The service certificates were taken with you personally when travelling to a new ship or shore depot.
                      Whoever said Seek and Ye shall find was not a genealogist.

                      David

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                      • #12
                        If you are lucky enough to have any photos then you may be able to guess where RN personnel may be but that will mean deciding dates that photos were taken! Actual war service may be more difficult re photos

                        I have just had passed to me an intriguing album of photos of all sorts from Ireland to Navy, n most of which were unknown to me. There are many of my father in RN Uniform with groups of other RN personnel. It will be difficult deciphering some of those but others are of him in white uniform and a certificate of him crossing the line and I know he was in Johannesburg in 1944 ish. I know he was in the Italian Campaign 1943 and I have a souvenir booklet of the Barham which he was serving in 1938 so I know I will be able to put dates to many of the pictures by his record..

                        The record I have from MOD simply states shins on which he served until 1940 plus all dates of transfer to other ships and shore bases but the Ancestry Document I found online a few weeks ago gives more details as to his conduct etc.

                        So try Ancestry first before paying £30 to MOD and do not be surprised if you cannot find records from 1940 to 1945 as even if you pay for the records yo may well find that those vital years are unavailable at present. They may be at some time or as my previous post suggests they just may never have been recorded but if you have original records then you may find you have all you ned anyway.

                        Janet

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                        • #13
                          But isn't there still the problem of WHO is allowed to apply for the records from MoD?

                          I was under the impression that it was spouse, then a child if the spouse was dead but proof of spouse's death had to be supplied.

                          In this case, it is a niece wanting her uncle's records.

                          Is that a close enough family member???????
                          My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                          Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sylvia C View Post
                            So far as I know WW2 records are NOT online. Thye are still held by the Department.<br>
                            <br>
                            Close family members can request release of the records of someone who served, at a cost ......... that means spouse, child if spouse is dead but providing proof of death. <br>
                            <br>
                            I don't know if it extends any further than that, eg to nieces and nephews.
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            Thay are online through Ancestry from 1922 to 1940. As I said previously I have found my father's records from 1922 to 1940 plus his pension 1945. I did not know they were online until Ancestry suggested it as a hint about which I was curious as the hint mentioned RN records from 1922 to 1940. I did have problems downloading but have managed it now. These records are virtually the same as the record I had from MOD for which I paid £25 but they also add in the good conduct which MOD did not let me have. Now it may be that not all RN records are on Ancestry, that I do not know. My father was a Chief Petty Officer and was a serving RN from 1919 so maybe it is just some ranks and long service people online that I do not know but worth checking out. Also although my father served on mainly battleships he was a medical person so again this may have a bearing on the record available. <br>
                            <br>
                            I was very surprised and plased to find his record so others may wish to save money initially by checking out on Ancestry first before going to MOD<br>
                            <br>
                            It was not just W War 2 records but the records from 1922 to 1945 that were still with the MOD but clearly there must have been some redease for Ancestry to have obtained at least some of these records. Clearly the actual records from 1940 to 1945 are not yet available as I had already pointed out. The records from 1922 to 1940 are available through MOD to next of kin at a cost of £30 now. As I said previously my father's records from MOD only go up to 1940 due to shortage of writers.

                            Janet
                            Last edited by Janet; 19-11-18, 20:32.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sylvia C View Post
                              But isn't there still the problem of WHO is allowed to apply for the records from MoD?

                              I was under the impression that it was spouse, then a child if the spouse was dead but proof of spouse's death had to be supplied.

                              In this case, it is a niece wanting her uncle's records.

                              Is that a close enough family member???????
                              To obtain records from MOD you should have to produce evidence of next of kin and that could be anybody. When I applied my father was dead and so was my mother. The next in line was my older brother who had died and then his children took precedence over me. I also had another older brother alive who also took precedence over me. I supplied all the relevant certs, said that I had no knowledge of my older brother's children and then spent many weeks arguing with MOD about my rights to my father's records . I felt so strongly about this next of kin and brothers taking precedence over me that I was prepared to take my case much further! My older brother had no Family History interest. I won the battle and they issued me with the records so I think it all depends how hard you want to fight for the records! When they send you forms to complete they go through all the relationships and the further we get from the Second W War then the relationships are going to be looser.

                              Janet
                              Last edited by Janet; 19-11-18, 21:08.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                How much information depends on the date a service man died.
                                From MOD:


                                Note that if you are not the immediate Next of Kin or do not have the consent of
                                the Next of Kin* then for a period of 25 years following the date of death the only
                                information that will be disclosed to you is surname; forename; rank; service number;
                                regiment/corps; place of birth; age; date of birth; date of death where this
                                occurred in service; the date an individual joined the service, the date of leaving;
                                good conduct medals (i.e. Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GCM)), and
                                any orders of chivalry and gallantry medals (decorations of valour) awarded,
                                some of which may have been announced in the London Gazette.
                                After this period the following information will also be disclosed, the units in which
                                he/she served, the dates of this service and the locations of those units; the
                                ranks in which the service was carried out and details of campaign medals
                                awarded.
                                Kat

                                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                                  How much information depends on the date a service man died.
                                  From MOD:


                                  Note that if you are not the immediate Next of Kin or do not have the consent of
                                  the Next of Kin* then for a period of 25 years following the date of death the only
                                  information that will be disclosed to you is surname; forename; rank; service number;
                                  regiment/corps; place of birth; age; date of birth; date of death where this
                                  occurred in service; the date an individual joined the service, the date of leaving;
                                  good conduct medals (i.e. Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GCM)), and
                                  any orders of chivalry and gallantry medals (decorations of valour) awarded,
                                  some of which may have been announced in the London Gazette.
                                  After this period the following information will also be disclosed, the units in which
                                  he/she served, the dates of this service and the locations of those units; the
                                  ranks in which the service was carried out and details of campaign medals
                                  awarded.
                                  This relates to the Army and is different to the Royal Navy in respect of the actual war years of 1940/1 to 1945. I do not know how the army wrote up their war years but in the case of the Royal Navy there were specialist writers on board ships that wete employed in the RN to oversee this important job of writing up the records and as I pointed out in my earlier post the Admiralty had to employ thse writers in the Navy to other more important War Effort jobs within the Senior Service.

                                  As stated above if you can put your case well for obtaining the records then you MAY be able to obtain records without necessarily being next of kin, as I managed to do. I had to go through many hoops to get them and they gave more information than date of birth etc. I was also given all the ships on which he served and the dates of transfer to the various ships and shore establishments. It was also agrre that I had the right ship for his service beyond 1941I was not on speaking terms with my brother at the time and I had no intention of asking his permission as I told the MOD. I had to fight my corner but I did win so a;; I suggest is that people try if that is what they want, do not just give up and accept the fact that the rules say this so it must be so!!

                                  Janet
                                  Last edited by Janet; 20-11-18, 10:50.

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