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I Can't find a marriage! Help please!!

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  • I Can't find a marriage! Help please!!

    I'm looking for a marriage of Mary Anne Lawless & Henry Maggs.

    According to birth certificate of their daughter Harriett Mary Maggs born 1871 in Kingstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland he was recorded as a Soldier.

    I can't find Henry Maggs on Ireland Census, or a death for him in Ireland.

    However, I found a marriage for a Mary Harriett Maggs 1899 at St Michael’s RC, Kingstown, Co. Dublin, Father Henry Maggs, Soldier to a Michael Groves. So I'm assuming that this is a match...unless anyone can find anything else. It's driving me bonkers as Mary Anne Lawless is such a common name!
    teresa

  • #2
    Originally posted by kathsgirl.48 View Post
    I'm looking for a marriage of Mary Anne Lawless & Henry Maggs.

    According to birth certificate of their daughter Harriett Mary Maggs born 1871 in Kingstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland he was recorded as a Soldier.

    I can't find Henry Maggs on Ireland Census, or a death for him in Ireland.

    However, I found a marriage for a Mary Harriett Maggs 1899 at St Michael’s RC, Kingstown, Co. Dublin, Father Henry Maggs, Soldier to a Michael Groves. So I'm assuming that this is a match...unless anyone can find anything else. It's driving me bonkers as Mary Anne Lawless is such a common name!
    LOL I know what you mean about Mary Lawlesses - although the one in my tree is a Mary Ellen Lawless.
    I haven't been able to find a Maggs-Lawless marriage but I think you are right with the marriage of the daughter to Michael Groves - they went on to have a daughter in 1900 -Esther Helena - and what do you know, the informant is the child's great grandmother by the name of Mary Anne Lawless!

    I think this is the family in 1901 with Esther Helena recorded as Lena aged 11 rather than 11 months??? As Bith parents were illiterate the form has been filled in by the enumerator who possibly misunderstood the child's age?

    Christine
    Last edited by Karamazov; 14-10-18, 22:39.
    Researching:
    HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

    Comment


    • #3
      And another daughter Mary Anne Groves in 1902:


      Christine
      Researching:
      HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Karamazov View Post
        LOL I know what you mean about Mary Lawlesses - although the one in my tree is a Mary Ellen Lawless.
        I haven't been able to find a Maggs-Lawless marriage but I think you are right with the marriage of the daughter to Michael Groves - they went on to have a daughter in 1900 -Esther Helena - and what do you know, the informant is the child's great grandmother by the name of Mary Anne Lawless!

        I think this is the family in 1901 with Esther Helena recorded as Lena aged 11 rather than 11 months??? As Bith parents were illiterate the form has been filled in by the enumerator who possibly misunderstood the child's age?

        Christine
        Yes I have noted the grandmother Mary Anne Lawless.

        She is my Gt Grandmother Margaret's sister as the address she quotes on the Birth Cert. is the same address as given on her Burial record:
        Mary Anne LAWLESS (wife of a labourer) of 3 Paradise Place, Kingstown
        Died 28 Dec 1900 aged 70 She is buried in Deansgrange in grave N3 111 N with her husband Laurence. The informant was Michael GROVES.


        Death Certificate: Mary Anne Lawless, married, Died 28 Dec 1900 aged 61 at Turners Ave. The informant was her Granddaughter Mary Groves of Turners Avenue.
        Between them they obviously didn't know her age!

        Yes that's the family on the 1901 Dublin

        1911 Dublin Census 2nd April 1911
        Residents of a house 2 in Baxter's Court (Kingstown No. 3, Dublin)
        Michael Groves, Head, 35, RC, Gen Labourer Born Co. Dublin Cannot Read
        Mary Groves Wife, 36, RC, Born Co. Dublin, Cannot Read
        Lena Groves Dau, 11, RC, Born Co. Dublin, Scholar, Cannot Read
        Mary Anne Groves Dau, 8, RC, Born Co. Dublin, Scholar, Cannot read
        Michael Groves, Son, 4, RC, Born Co. Dublin, Scholar, Cannot read
        Edmond Groves, son, 3, RC, Born Co. Dublin, Cannot read (Edmond is Edward)
        James Groves, son, 1, RC Born Co. Dublin, Cannot read (James is John James)
        Michael Groves signed the Census form with an 'X'
        Michael & Mary Groves had been married for 12 Years.
        5 Children born alive, 5 living.

        Some of the children have MMN as 'Mark' when the mother Mary Groves has registerd their births. She made her 'MARK' X
        5. John James Groves Born 27 Oct 1909 at 52 Patrick Street, Kingsdown
        Father Michael Groves, Labourer Mother Mary Groves of Baxters Ct, Kingstown.
        Mary Groves Signed ‘X’. Maiden name says Lawless.
        Mary Maggs’ Mother’s Maiden Name was Lawless!

        Was she asked ‘’MMN’’? Not realising that it was her maiden names that was required!
        teresa

        Comment


        • #5
          And this is them in 1911, now at 2 Baxter's Court (Patrick Street) Kingstown with three more children, all sons:


          But then things start going a bit weird, which lead me to thinking that the Maggs-Lawless marriage never happened and that 1871 daughter (Harriet) Mary Maggs was therefore illegitimate - what do you think?
          Here are all the birth records for children of Michael and Mary Groves but with her supposed maiden name changing over time:
          For Mary Anne 1902 - link above - mmn recorded as Marks but struck through and amended by registrar to Maggs
          For Michael Joseph 1905 - mmn Marks
          For Edward Lawrence 1907 - mmn Marks
          For John James 1909 - mmn Lawless

          Then two more children born after the 1911 census:
          For Philip 1912 - mmn Lawless
          for Margaret 1914 - mmn Lawless

          I haven't put in all the links to births but you can easily find them all yourself on irishgenealogy.ie with registration district in all cases being Rathdown.

          Christine

          I see you beat me to it - I'm not the world's fastest typist. Plus I had to find and then try and make sense of the info which led to wondering if Mary Anne Lawless ever married Henry Maggs...
          Last edited by Karamazov; 14-10-18, 23:49.
          Researching:
          HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kathsgirl.48 View Post
            Yes I have noted the grandmother Mary Anne Lawless.

            ....
            Between them they obviously didn't know her age!

            !
            But on the birth certificate for Esther Helena (Lena) it refers to her as GREAT grandmother - I took this at face value and therefore took her to be the mother of the Mary Anne Lawless who supposedly married Henry Maggs. As the informant, surely she knew whether she was the child's grandma or great grandma?
            I sent a correction to NAI to change Edmond to Edward.

            Christine
            Researching:
            HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Karamazov View Post
              But on the birth certificate for Esther Helena (Lena) it refers to her as GREAT grandmother - I took this at face value and therefore took her to be the mother of the Mary Anne Lawless who supposedly married Henry Maggs. As the informant, surely she knew whether she was the child's grandma or great grandma?
              I sent a correction to NAI to change Edmond to Edward.

              Christine
              Yes it does say Great Grandmother on the birth Certificate for Esther Helena born 1900 at 2 Paradise Place, Not Grandmother..my typing error, sorry..

              It's very odd that MMN varies for all the children. The fact that Both Michael Groves and wife Mary cannot read or write too adds to the confusion.

              As Michael Groves was quoted a Soldier on 2 records he could have married in another Country. Maybe he married in Scotland or Mary was married before, who knows?
              teresa

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kathsgirl.48 View Post
                Yes it does say Great Grandmother on the birth Certificate for Esther Helena born 1900 at 2 Paradise Place, Not Grandmother..my typing error, sorry..

                It's very odd that MMN varies for all the children. The fact that Both Michael Groves and wife Mary cannot read or write too adds to the confusion.

                As Michael Groves was quoted a Soldier on 2 records he could have married in another Country. Maybe he married in Scotland or Mary was married before, who knows?
                You mean Henry Maggs as soldier? Michael Groves always seems to have been a labourer apart from being a car driver on birth cert of one of the children. I had a quick look on FreeBMD to see if I could find a Maggs-Lawless marriage in England or Wales but didnt find anything. Haven't tried ScotlandsPeople.
                Christine
                Researching:
                HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                Comment

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