Pointers Please....

[lulamula1]

Hi I am new here and I am struggling.

I have dipped into my family tree over the years but every time I do I hit a brick wall and was hoping for some guidance.


My great grandfather was called Edward Edwards.


He is on the 1891 census with my great grandmother Maria Alice (or Alice Maria, nee Gold), and their 4 eldest children at 134 Meetinghouse Lane, Peckham, his occupation is a house decorator, (later a master house decorator).


The earliest mention I can find of him is on his first born child’s birth certificate, (Ethel Alice Edwards DOB 15/12/1884) his occupation is butler and residence is listed as 5 Gardnor Road, Hampstead.


On the 1891 census (aged 32), 1901 census (aged 45) and 1911 census (aged 52) he states his birthplace is Chelmsford Essex.


Bizarrely he and my great grandmother wait until their youngest, of 11 children, is 25 years old, until they marry in 1936…… (could there be an earlier marriage or someone has suggested that with a surname like Gold there was an interfaith issue?)


From their marriage certificate I know his father’s name, which is listed as James Edwards, occupation gardener (deceased).


I can’t find his birth certificate or anything about him prior to December 1884.

On the plus side I am motoring through his 11 children, I have the benefit of my mother and sister and their cousin to give some information and I have found more living relatives from some of the great aunts/uncles.


Any pointers would be very gratefully received.

Many thanks for reading this.

[Guest]

wonder if this is his birth

Edwards mothers maiden name Russell
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in Chelmford Volume 04A Page 125

[Katarzyna]

Marriage 1933 not 1936?

Marriages Sep 1933

Edwards Edward Gold Hammersmith 1a 717
Gold Alice M Edwards Hammersmith 1a 717

[Guest]

would this be him by any chance

204 Camberwell Grove , Camberwell, London, England

Edward Edwards 03 Jul 1858 Male Retired Builder Married
Alice Edwards 05 Nov 1865 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties

[kylejustin]

Chelmsford parish records are online with a subscription to "seax" the essex archives. You can get them for a day, week, month, year.

Might be worth looking through those to find an edward with the same father's details? Might be able to track him with family.

[Darksecretz]

Hello and welcome to the forum on the marriage certificate who were the witness' please?

I suspect that Edward may very well have been married previously and waited until his former 'wife' had died. [divorce was really rather expensive then]

as you have been tracking the children and have found other people if they have married it might be as well to check the witness' names on their certs too as they could be family members. Please though do not post names of living people as this is against our Terms & Conditions.

when Edward died were there any mention of brothers or sisters? [maybe in an obituary/notice in paper] etc.. any wills? I wonder if he appeared in any Trade directories? would have thought that House painters would have had to have learnt the trade from somewhere though? maybe apprenticed?

sorry I haven't been much help!

[lulamula1]

You are right, it was 1933 not 1936, it was late and I had dates dates swimming in front of my eyes! Thank you for replying.

[lulamula1]

would this be him by any chance

204 Camberwell Grove , Camberwell, London, England

Edward Edwards 03 Jul 1858 Male Retired Builder Married
Alice Edwards 05 Nov 1865 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties

Hello 'Val wish Id never started'
Where dd you find this nugget? This is them! I have Alice's BC, she was born 5th Nov 1963, so has 'lost a couple of years off her age, which appears commonplace .....
Many thanks for replying

[lulamula1]

Hello and welcome to the forum on the marriage certificate who were the witness' please?

I suspect that Edward may very well have been married previously and waited until his former 'wife' had died. [divorce was really rather expensive then]

as you have been tracking the children and have found other people if they have married it might be as well to check the witness' names on their certs too as they could be family members. Please though do not post names of living people as this is against our Terms & Conditions.

when Edward died were there any mention of brothers or sisters? [maybe in an obituary/notice in paper] etc.. any wills? I wonder if he appeared in any Trade directories? would have thought that House painters would have had to have learnt the trade from somewhere though? maybe apprenticed?

sorry I haven't been much help!

Good morning Darksecretz

Thanks for the reply.
The marriage took place in Hammersmith, many years after the birth of the last child Grace in 1908. Their address is stated as 175 Askew Road, Shepherds Bush, as far as we know they never lived over that side of London, they were Camberwell/Peckham based. The witness names do not ring any bells. I will take a more detailed look at them.
The younger children, my grandmother included, were God fearing folk and would have been horrified if they knew their parents hadn't been married!!!! Which is why I think they went across town to do the deed. I think a previous marriage was probably the reason.
Going to look for an obituary and trade directories etc
Many thanks again.

[lulamula1]

wonder if this is his birth

Edwards mothers maiden name Russell
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in Chelmford Volume 04A Page 125

Val is this in the birth records specific to Chelmsford, Essex rather than in the main records? I am confused, which is easily done! I have only checked the main 1858 JFM/AMJ/JAS/OND under E and couldn't see him....

[Darksecretz]

Glad to help! I have found an Edwin Edwards with Father John [who is an Ag lab] in the Essex area in 1861. both of Edwins parents are dead by 1866 and he appears to be lodging with a friend of the family. I have not found him in 1881 yet, and if he were to marry then I would expect that to occur around 1878/9 [and that could be anywhere!] Brides tended to get married in their home parish.

I don't want to get your hopes up at all but it is possible that his parents did die when he was quite small so might not have remembered things as they should have been remembered.

if this were me, i'd be looking at his death and marriage certs, seeing if there were any obits or Will left. Also to look in trade directories to see if he is mentioned. [and where he might have learned his trade] examining all of his children's births/marriages plotting when and where they lived. Seeing if any of the children's names actually appeared in the family.... it might be that some of the children's names came from Alice's family but they might have come from Edwards.

[Darksecretz]

Val is this in the birth records specific to Chelmsford, Essex rather than in the main records? I am confused, which is easily done! I have only checked the main 1858 JFM/AMJ/JAS/OND under E and couldn't see him....

I did check the GRO indexes and there is a male Edwards MMN RUSSELL registered September q 1858 in Chelmsford district... there are other registrations with MMN RUSSELL and one that could be connected as RUFFELL [double F's sometimes looked like double S's when written]

The entry for Edwin & Alice with their EXACT dates of birth would have been taken from the 1939 register [which is now online]

[lulamula1]

Glad to help! I have found an Edwin Edwards with Father John [who is an Ag lab] in the Essex area in 1861. both of Edwins parents are dead by 1866 and he appears to be lodging with a friend of the family. I have not found him in 1881 yet, and if he were to marry then I would expect that to occur around 1878/9 [and that could be anywhere!] Brides tended to get married in their home parish.

I don't want to get your hopes up at all but it is possible that his parents did die when he was quite small so might not have remembered things as they should have been remembered.

if this were me, i'd be looking at his death and marriage certs, seeing if there were any obits or Will left. Also to look in trade directories to see if he is mentioned. [and where he might have learned his trade] examining all of his children's births/marriages plotting when and where they lived. Seeing if any of the children's names actually appeared in the family.... it might be that some of the children's names came from Alice's family but they might have come from Edwards.

Hi Julie
Thank you so much with your help.
I will check out 1939 document, but it certainly sounds 100% like them.
I am confused re his occupation. On 1884 BC of 1st child, daughter Ethel Alice he is a butler, domestic servant. I would have thought he was quite young for that title (26ish) as surely he would have had to work his way up through the ranks? I sniggered to myself that the registrar thought the same and added the domestic servant bit as well as they thought he was 'bigging up' his role! I am awaiting the BC of the next child Herbert Arthur in 1886 to see what occupation that states.
If he was a butler in 1884, why change to become a house decorator, and I assume start at the bottom of the career ladder all over again, again methinks the title butler maybe a little grand....
I am still confused about the birth register but I will go take another look.
Thanks again for your help.

[Darksecretz]

this is where I found the ref's to the births:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

you will need to register if you haven't already got an account
and the MMN's are shown in the index.

I have been looking at the RUSSELL/RUFFELL name and I think I might have found them in the 1861 census the mother was Ellen RUFFELL and she marries William Edwards, they appear in Writtle? essex on the census [and this falls under Chelmsford district] not sure if you havea sub to Ancestry or not but this is them..

1861: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

[Darksecretz]

Hi Julie
Thank you so much with your help.
I will check out 1939 document, but it certainly sounds 100% like them.
I am confused re his occupation. On 1884 BC of 1st child, daughter Ethel Alice he is a butler, domestic servant. I would have thought he was quite young for that title (26ish) as surely he would have had to work his way up through the ranks? I sniggered to myself that the registrar thought the same and added the domestic servant bit as well as they thought he was 'bigging up' his role! I am awaiting the BC of the next child Herbert Arthur in 1886 to see what occupation that states.
If he was a butler in 1884, why change to become a house decorator, and I assume start at the bottom of the career ladder all over again, again methinks the title butler maybe a little grand....
I am still confused about the birth register but I will go take another look.
Thanks again for your help.

YES that puzzled me too I think it was a case of 'bigging up' like you say the position of a Butler to a House painter... doesn't seem very likely to me either.. [not unless she [the mother] was very much aware that he had a secret to hide so helped him to conceal it?]

[lulamula1]

YES that puzzled me too I think it was a case of 'bigging up' like you say the position of a Butler to a House painter... doesn't seem very likely to me either.. [not unless she [the mother] was very much aware that he had a secret to hide so helped him to conceal it?]

Oh I do love a mystery!
I have a GRO account, I just didn't realise you could look at info as well on the site...DOH. Have ordered that BC, it will be a well spent £6 IF it solves some of the mystery.
Yes I have ancestry A/C and have also been rootling around the FindMyPast site this weekend as it was free!

What I really need is to spend a few hours with someone who can show me how best to use the information out there, I have often found a quicker/shorter way by accident, after the event.
Thanks again Julie you have been very helpful.

[Darksecretz]

Oh I do love a mystery!
I have a GRO account, I just didn't realise you could look at info as well on the site...DOH. Have ordered that BC, it will be a well spent £6 IF it solves some of the mystery.
Yes I have ancestry A/C and have also been rootling around the FindMyPast site this weekend as it was free!

What I really need is to spend a few hours with someone who can show me how best to use the information out there, I have often found a quicker/shorter way by accident, after the event.
Thanks again Julie you have been very helpful.

happy to help!

I have often found that searching by 'accident' is often the best way, I muddle through and have even constructed posts to try and figure out what goes where, if you are stuck at all just shout and someone will come to your aid, and they can often help solve a puzzle or give you pointers to try. Never be worried about asking for help, we are all in this game together :smilee:

I can't get on with FMP... seems too disjointed for me. [much prefer ancestry!]


a couple of things though that you could try...

I know it'll be a long hard slog, but it may be that his birth wasn't registered [as at that time it wasn't compulsory to do so] so he may have been baptised instead.
He may also have been a non conformist, which again might mean that his baptism was registered.

He may have had a different forename.

He may well not know what his fathers name was [so said what he 'thought' it was.]

He could have been illegitimate.

just trying to cover all bases here!

[Guest]

sorry couldn't get back last night, lost the internet again, in spite of paying for the best service they have.

[Guest]

oh dear might be the wrong cert, as the family Julie found cannot be his, there isn't an Edward with them.

[Chrissie Smiff]

I'm confused too. Why do we now think he is Edwin please?