confused

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

I thought I would look again for my Great Grandmother BC especially now the GRO show MMN, I have found a hornets nest unless of course its me! Would anyone care to help I have become confused.

I know my Great Grandfather Frederick Wyatt married Ann Bennett I have their MC and Ann shows her father as Joseph John Bennett who married Sarah Selina Wiseman in 1850, St Matthew Bethnal Green, they are on the 1861 census return. RGO9, P250, FOLIO 96, PAGE 28.
Because I could not find Ann's BC I looked for the other children's birth details

Joseph 1851
Henry 1853
Ann 1855
William 1859
Mary Ann 1861

I found Joseph and Henry who are registered as the following

Joseph Robert 1851 MMN Wiseman
Henry William 1853 MMN Wiseman

The remaining children I could not find? I found a few Ann's 1856 MMN Bradbrook, 1859 MMN Waker, 1860 MMN Wells.

Found a William 1858, MMN Bradbrook and William 1858, MMN Rolfe
Mary Ann 1861 MMN Rolfe

I know Sarah died in 1867 and Joseph remarried Elizabeth Blake in 1877, St.Jude Beth/Grn. The family are on the 1871 census return RG10, P 502, Folio 44, page 11, there are three additional Children, Sarah 1863, Rachel 1868, and James 1870, of course the last two children are Elizabeth's but I cannot find them with MMN Blake. As Elizabeth was shown as a widow when she remarried and father was shown as John Blake assumed Blake is her maiden name.

I cannot find Sarah using surname Bennett I checked Blake just in case it was Elizabeth child from previous marriage.

Can anyone give me any more ideas as to how to find Ann Bennett's Birth it would be greatly appreciated am I missing something.

[margaretmarch]

Looking at the 1861 census for the family it shows Sarah as aged 20 so she could not be the mother of any of the children shown on you list as she would have been too young!!

Is there an earlier marriage for Joseph John Bennett to explain this ?

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

I can see Joseph listed in the 1851 Census Sample but can't find the image to check who the wife is

Name: Joseph Bennet
Address: Princes Street
Enumeration District: Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Birth Place: Middlesex, England, Bethnal G
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Relationship: Head
Marriage Status: Married
Occupation: Chair Maker

Also in this he gives place of birth as Bethnal green but in 1861 Ireland. Do you know which is correct?

Margaret

[Mary from Italy]

I was just looking at that 1851 census; the wife is Sarah, aged 19, born Bethnal Green. There are no children with them.

I would have thought it's the right couple in view of his occupation, in which case the births are wrong in one of the censuses and Sarah's age is wrong in the second one (unless it's a different Sarah).

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_250_251-0188/5614633?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=MDXRG9_250_251-0188

[margaretmarch]

Right found him on FMP in 1851 reference
HO107
Piece number 1542
Folio 627
Page 26

Wife is Sarah but her age is 19 to his 21 so is the one in 1861 the same Sarah?

Maybe check for another marriage for him after the birth of Henry William in case he married another Sarah - not unknown!!

Margaret

[Mary from Italy]

There's a baptism at St Leonard's, Shoreditch in 1851 for Joseph Robert Bennett, son of Joseph John, chairmaker and Sarah Selina.

Dob 3/7/1851, which matches the birth with mmn Wiseman.

[Mary from Italy]

There's a baptism at St Philip, Bethnal Green, for Ann Jane Bennett, same parents, on 7/10/1855, dob 23/9/1855:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31280_197389-00187/3037210?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmabirths%26gsln%3dbennet*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26msfng%3djos*%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng%3dsara*%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26redir%3dfalse%26uidh%3dyc2&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Mary from Italy]

Haven't found a matching birth for Ann so far.

[Macbev]

Ann Jane Bennett, b. 23 Sep, bap 7 Oct 1855 st Phillip Bethnal Green. Father Joseph John Bennett, chairmaker, mother Sarah Selina; res King Street

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1558/31280_197389-00187?pid=153037210&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3DLMAbirths%26h%3D153037210%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D1623&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

[Mary from Italy]

The Sarah who died in 1867 was 37, so it seems likely that it's the same Sarah in both censuses.

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

Sarah selina Wiseman was born about 1831 and I am sure she is the same person shown on the 1861 census return with husband Joseph. the age I have taken from their MC.

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

I have found all the records you refer to so you can see why I am confused. Sarah Selina states she was a minor on her marraige certificate so I have assumed she was very young and the mother of the children. As I have already said I have found a birth in the registers for Joseph Robert and Henry William with MMN Wiseman. I have searched to find details on Sarah selina with father William but came up with nothing I thought it might give me clues. I am sure its the same Sarah in both censuses.
Thanks everyone for your help.

[Mary from Italy]

Baptisms to Joseph (chair maker) and Sarah:

- Joseph Robert, 1851
- William Henry, 1853
- Ann Jane, 1855
- William James John 1858
- Mary Ann 1860
- Sarah Charlotte 1862
- James Michael 1867

Baptisms to Joseph (chair maker) and Elizabeth:

- Joseph James 1870
- Charles Alfred 1872
- Edward John 1873*
- Elizabeth 1874
- Elizabeth Mary Ann 1880

* the occupation's wrong, but the address is right, so I think the occupation's been copied in error from the row above.

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

Thanks for that I m beginning to think may be they did not register some of the children.

Baptisms to Joseph (chair maker) and Sarah:


- Joseph Robert, 1851
- William Henry, 1853
- Ann Jane, 1855
- William James John 1858
- Mary Ann 1860
- Sarah Charlotte 1862
- James Michael 1867

Baptisms to Joseph (chair maker) and Elizabeth:

- Joseph James 1870
- Charles Alfred 1872
- Edward John 1873*
- Elizabeth 1874
- Elizabeth Mary Ann 1880

* the occupation's wrong, but the address is right, so I think the occupation's been copied in error from the row above.

[Mary from Italy]

Yes, me too. It'd be useful if we could find out whether Blake was really Elizabeth's maiden name.

The last child, Elizabeth Mary Ann, born after the marriage, was registered with mmn Blake, but that doesn't really prove anything. I haven't found births for the others yet, even searching with Blake as the surname.

I haven't found baptisms for Rachel or George, either.

Not sure if you have George, because I see you didn't mention the 1881 census.

They're listed as Joseph and Betsy, with children Rachel 14, Jas 11, Elizabeth 5, Geo 3 and Mary Ann 1.

[Mary from Italy]

James Michael is registered with mmn Wiseman, and I should think this might be his death:

Deaths Sep 1868
Bennett James Michael / 0 / Shoreditch 1c 123

He was born in the last quarter of 1867, which is when Sarah died, so she presumably died in childbirth.

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

I am doing the same as you looking through the register for their births and like you only found Elizabeth Mary Ann and no i did not have George so thanks for that.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Remember that birth registration was down to the registrar not the parent before 1875. I have found many of mine were only registered if they were born in the workhouse, lol, but all were baptised.

OC