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  • Which site to believe?

    The LDS site has an extracted record for the birth of George Graham, 4/12/1816, son of Charles Graham and Agnes Lee, in Dumfries.
    But we can find no record of his birth on S.P. (death and marriage all accounted for.)
    Any ideas? His birth cert. is the only record I haven't got.
    Cath.

  • #2
    [QUOTE=Cath RJ;2621379]The LDS site has an extracted record for the birth of George Graham, 4/12/1816, son of Charles Graham and Agnes Lee, in Dumfries.
    But we can find no record of his birth on S.P. (death and marriage all accounted for.)
    Any ideas? His birth cert. is the only record I haven't got.[/QUOTES

    Statutory birth records only started in 1855 in Scotland. Church registers ( Old Parish Registers) are earlier but vary in availability from area to area and also the amount of information on the baptism is not standard so some records will only name the father and date and place and others will be more complete.
    I have had a look for your family on SP and can find other children to Charles and Agnes but not for George - will have another look but it is not unusual for some children to be missing.
    Last edited by herky; 28-01-18, 11:37.
    herky
    Researching - Trimmer (Farringdon), Noble & Taylor (Ross and Cromarty), Norris (Glasgow), McGilvray (Glasgow and Australia), Leck & Efford (Glasgow), Ferrett (Hampshire), Jenkins & Williams (Aberystwyth), Morton (Motherwell and Tipton), Barrowman (Glasgow), Lilley (Bromsgrove and Glasgow), Cresswell (England and Lanarkshire). Simpson, Morrow and Norris in Ireland. Thomas Price b c 1844 Scotland.

    Comment


    • #3
      Just to add that there is a gap of 3 1/2 years between William and Mary so quite possible for George to fit in there. Sorry I can't be of more help.
      I wonder where LDS got the birth info from? - was it from an actual parish record or submitted from someone? If submitted it could have come from another source such as a family bible, letters, etc.
      herky
      Researching - Trimmer (Farringdon), Noble & Taylor (Ross and Cromarty), Norris (Glasgow), McGilvray (Glasgow and Australia), Leck & Efford (Glasgow), Ferrett (Hampshire), Jenkins & Williams (Aberystwyth), Morton (Motherwell and Tipton), Barrowman (Glasgow), Lilley (Bromsgrove and Glasgow), Cresswell (England and Lanarkshire). Simpson, Morrow and Norris in Ireland. Thomas Price b c 1844 Scotland.

      Comment


      • #4
        I've been researching George since about 2002 and know a great deal about him but have yet to find a copy of his birth entry - so frustrating!!
        Cath.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by herky View Post
          I wonder where LDS got the birth info from?
          From the detail of the index:
          George Graham
          Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
          Name: George Graham
          Gender: Male
          Christening Date: 10 Dec 1816
          Christening Place: , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
          Birth Date: 04 Dec 1816
          Father's Name: Charles Graham
          Mother's Name: Agnes Lee

          Record Collection:

          Wiki Link
          Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
          Document Information:
          Indexing Project (Batch) Number C19524-1
          System Origin Scotland-VR
          GS Film number 1067959

          The information on that film:
          Parish registers for Dumfries, 1605-1855
          Baptisms, 1702-1819. Marriages, 1616-1743. (Preferred film for viewing. Use this before ordering the other filming.)
          Family History Library
          British Film
          1067959


          Given that it cites a film of parish records (not someone's family tree), I think the record is really in the parish record. Only way to be certain is to look at the record...
          It implies that the images are viewable online, but it errs off when I try to do that. If you go to a family history centre, you might be able to view it on the centre's computer.
          Last edited by PhotoFamily; 28-01-18, 16:15.

          Comment


          • #6
            Many thanks. I've emailed S.P. to see if they can explain why it's not indexed since it appears in OPRs. Hopefully they will be able to shed some light.
            Cath.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cath RJ View Post
              Many thanks. I've emailed S.P. to see if they can explain why it's not indexed since it appears in OPRs. Hopefully they will be able to shed some light.
              I am sure they will sort this out for you as they have always been very helpful to me in the past.
              Good luck.
              herky
              Researching - Trimmer (Farringdon), Noble & Taylor (Ross and Cromarty), Norris (Glasgow), McGilvray (Glasgow and Australia), Leck & Efford (Glasgow), Ferrett (Hampshire), Jenkins & Williams (Aberystwyth), Morton (Motherwell and Tipton), Barrowman (Glasgow), Lilley (Bromsgrove and Glasgow), Cresswell (England and Lanarkshire). Simpson, Morrow and Norris in Ireland. Thomas Price b c 1844 Scotland.

              Comment


              • #8
                You could look for another person christened close to that date and obtain their record. Ie look at dumfries births in 1816 on scotlandspeople. Presumably, charles' record would be on the same or next page, mistranscribed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Maybe. Or maybe it's in an odd place in the register that FS transcribed but others haven't. Not sure whether Church of Scotland would put a private baptism in a different spot, for instance? A little while back there was a thread looking for a London baptism that was on FS but not ancestry - it seems likely that it was a tax record.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have found baptisms on FS which say they are extracted records. Looking at the PR book on Ancestry or FMP I find they are just not there on the images, despite scouring the relevant page/date images. I suspect (and hope!) they got the records from the BTs which are often not available on line.

                    I should follow one of these up, I suppose, and email the Archive in question and ask for a lookup to see if that is true. If it was still not found it would put the FS transcriptions into severe doubt.
                    Anne

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We don't have bishop's transcripts in Scotland for the established church. It is not episopcal in structure. I do not know if there are such with the Roman Catholic church or the Episcopal Church in Scotland but I can't say I have ever seen a reference to them.
                      The couple's other children were baptised into to The Church of Scotland, so it's the old parish register or nothing for George I'm afraid.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, sorry GL, we got a bit off topic. I was talking about England PRs and BTs.
                        Anne

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am sure they will sort this out for you as they have always been very helpful to me in the past.
                          Good luck.


                          Yes Herky. They were very helpful in reading a note in the margin on George's death entry.
                          Cath.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As with any parish records we depend on the various ministers and session clerks to keep their records safe. I think it was in a WDYTYA where the subject visited a former manse and discovered a whole raft of ancient parish records that should have been kept in the church.
                            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just heard back from Sotlands People. They looked at the volume covering births in Dumfries in Dec. 1818 and there it was! They have now sent a lovely clear copy of the page.
                              They can't explain why it wasn't indexed but will add it .
                              This is the second time SP have turned up trumps for me.
                              Cath.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Cath RJ View Post
                                Just heard back from Sotlands People. They looked at the volume covering births in Dumfries in Dec. 1818 and there it was! They have now sent a lovely clear copy of the page.
                                They can't explain why it wasn't indexed but will add it .
                                This is the second time SP have turned up trumps for me.
                                Ooh Cath what a great result - please post it up so we can see

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Cath RJ View Post
                                  This is the second time SP have turned up trumps for me.
                                  and FS too?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                                    Ooh Cath what a great result - please post it up so we can see
                                    How do I do that?
                                    Cath.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Cath RJ View Post
                                      Just heard back from Sotlands People. They looked at the volume covering births in Dumfries in Dec. 1818 and there it was! They have now sent a lovely clear copy of the page.
                                      They can't explain why it wasn't indexed but will add it .
                                      This is the second time SP have turned up trumps for me.
                                      Good news - was the date 1816 (original post) or 1818 as above? SP are fairly quick in sorting things out, nothing worse in waiitng for weeks just to find you are no further on.

                                      It is always nice to a have full set of Birth/baptism, marriage and death certs. So many of mine are missing and it is so frustrating - I just want the full set!
                                      herky
                                      Researching - Trimmer (Farringdon), Noble & Taylor (Ross and Cromarty), Norris (Glasgow), McGilvray (Glasgow and Australia), Leck & Efford (Glasgow), Ferrett (Hampshire), Jenkins & Williams (Aberystwyth), Morton (Motherwell and Tipton), Barrowman (Glasgow), Lilley (Bromsgrove and Glasgow), Cresswell (England and Lanarkshire). Simpson, Morrow and Norris in Ireland. Thomas Price b c 1844 Scotland.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Yes Herky, 1816. I didn't notice the typo until I'd posted.
                                        Except for the 1841 census all this chap's records show him being born in c1820 so it's good to get his actual birth date at last.
                                        Cath.

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