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  • Help finding Russell births

    Hi – Long time lurker – hoping that someone may be able to help me solve a problem I have.

    I am researching my mother-in-law’s family – Russell. Her father was James Russell, born on 12/7/1894 – this date is confirmed in the 1939 Register and his school admission record. I have also found a baptism record on 29/7/1894 at St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, which whilst it doesn’t show his DOB, his father is shown as Alfred with a relatively unusual occupation as Sawdust Dealer, which is what is shown on his marriage certificate.

    So far so good, but what I can’t find is a record of his birth on the GRO index – I have searched various spellings, just on the surname, and I have even asked the GRO to do a search – and they found nothing. His mother’s name was Lydia Gregory before her marriage to Alfred.

    In the baptism records, I also found his brothers & sisters:
    Lydia – born 5/5/1887
    Alfred Joseph – born 12/11/1888
    Mary Ann Louisa – born 8/1/1893
    Caroline – born 18/7/1897
    Ada – born 8/12/1898
    There’s also a Rosina Martha born 25/1/1891, which I think may be a sister.

    You would think with all this detail, it would be easy to find their ‘official’ birth records, but I have been unable to find any of them ( aside from Alfred & Rosina) on the GRO index with the mothers maiden name of Gregory. I thought it may be that their father had remarried and they had a different mother, but again I can’t find births registered with a common mothers surname for these children.
    What makes it more confusing are the census records
    1891 –is OK showing Lydia & Alfred with their first 3 children – Alfred, Lydia & Rosey.
    1901 – I have found what appears to be Alfred & Lydia ( his occupation is shown as a Sawdust dealer and the ages are right – with only 2 children – Lydia & Alfred. I have searched the other children’s names and couldn’t find them with relatives etc.
    1911 – Father Alfred is dead (1909) and I assume mother Lydia is (although she could have remarried). Some of the children ( Rosina, Mary, James, Caroline & Ada) are now living with a cousin.

    Sorry for the lengthy story, but what I am trying to get to is, how likely is it that these children’s births would not be registered. Usually I find missing births have been mis-transcribed/mis-spelt etc, but these have me stumped. If anyone has any suggestions ideas, they would be most welcome.

  • #2
    Sorry couldn't edit - mother Lydia died in 1905

    Comment


    • #3
      It wasn't until after the Births and Deaths Act in 1874 that registration of births was made compulsory in 1875. It could well be that none of the children were registered. But the parents would have been fined for not doing so. Will have a look around
      Last edited by Katarzyna; 27-09-17, 18:17.
      Kat

      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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      • #4
        You say you have found Alfred and Rosina - what were the GRO refs ? I cannot see them with mmn Gregory. Bermondsey was in St Olave Southwark at that time.
        Kat

        My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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        • #5
          I have looked and cannot find anything. It is unlikely that they were all unregistered but anything is possible!

          OC

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          • #6
            RUSSELL, ALFRED JOSEPH mmn FENTON
            GRO Reference: 1888 D Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 969
            This is the only one I can find but MMN is not Gregory :(
            Kat

            My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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            • #7
              I can't find any either including the two OP says she has found.

              Comment


              • #8
                Me Neither GL

                I found this one but probably was only registered because the baby died shortly after birth.

                RUSSELL, GEORGE mmn GREGORY
                GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 147

                Death
                RUSSELL, GEORGE 0
                GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 99
                Last edited by Katarzyna; 27-09-17, 19:26.
                Kat

                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                Comment


                • #9
                  bit of a wild guess but

                  Gregory, James Edward
                  Mothers name Gregory
                  GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in Sheffield Volume 09C Page 503

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                    I can't find any either including the two OP says she has found.
                    My apologies - this shows how confusing I've found the whole thing.
                    I thought I'd found the first two, but looking at the GRO website they are not the correct mmn.

                    I thought at one point, I may have the wrong parents, but after looking at the marriages of some of the 'children', the father is definitely correct and the baptism records seem to support the mother being Lydia Gregory. I've tried all sorts of searches on variations of surnames, first names- even looking for groups of Russell births with the same mother to see if I could match that way - but no luck.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                      bit of a wild guess but

                      Gregory, James Edward
                      Mothers name Gregory
                      GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in Sheffield Volume 09C Page 503
                      Thank you for looking, I did think to look further afield, but from what I've found my Russell family came from South London.

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                      • #12
                        Yes - I did see that one which could well be another child. As you say, it could well have been registered as the child died shortly after birth.

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                        • #13
                          I assume that you are looking at the marriage in March 1886 St Saviour of an Alfred Russell to a possible Lydia Gregory?
                          All I can find are two births on the GRO that seem to fit i.e. Louisa Emma Rosina March 1887 and George 1890(as found), both in St Saviour and mmn Gregory.
                          I found three baptisms with parents Alfred and Lydia,

                          Mary Ann Louisa Russell - Female - Baptism Date: 8 Jan 1893 - Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene, Southwark, England - Father:Alfred Russell Mother:Lydia Russell

                          Name James Russell - Male Baptism Date 29 Jul 1894 -Bermondsey St Mary Magdalene, Southwark, England - Father Alfred Russell - Mother Sydia Russell (should read Lydia)

                          Name Caroline Russell - Female - Baptism Date 18 Jul 1897 - Walworth St Peter, Southwark, England - Father Alfred Russell - Mother Lydia Russell
                          Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 28-09-17, 09:34.
                          Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The poster has all the baptisms I think Chrissie but that Rosina birth you found is interesting.Perhaps they are all under different first names and their "known" names as middle ones.
                            RUSSELL, LOUISA EMMA ROSINA GREGORY
                            GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 114

                            Edit: But Rosina was baptised 25/1/1891 Lydia was bap 5/5/1887. they don't fit do they???
                            Last edited by Katarzyna; 28-09-17, 10:06.
                            Kat

                            My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think we also need to remember that those dates that are given as birth dates in post 1 are probably all Baptism dates. We all know that people didn't always baptise the children with a couple of weeks for various reasons.

                              p.s. I'm not sure what you mean 'don't fit' Kat? Who do you think is which (if you see what I mean)?
                              Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 28-09-17, 10:18.
                              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think the Louise Emma Rosina is possibly the d of George Russell (Sawdust Dealer) who married in 1880 a Sarah Gregory

                                In 1891 as Rosey with sibs Caroline and William.

                                Still can't find any GRO for children of Alfred and Lydia.

                                Vera

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                                • #17
                                  Are George and Alfred definitely two different people! (Sorry, I don't have access to look at census).

                                  OC

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                                  • #18
                                    On the 1891 census

                                    45 Amery Road St Mary Newington
                                    Rosey RUSSELL aged 3 months (so not the 1887 birth) born Newington daughter of Alfred saw dust dealer aged 25 birth place N K and Lydia 22 born Croydon with siblings Alfred 2 and Lydia 2

                                    4 Red Lion Mews, Newington
                                    Rosie RUSSELL aged 4 born Camberwell with parents George saw dust dealer aged 30 born Bermondsey and Sarah 28 born Borough S'wark siblings Caroline 10 and William 9
                                    Last edited by JudithM; 28-09-17, 13:21.
                                    Judith passed away in October 2018

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Just to clarify - there is a mix of births and baps in post 1

                                      Lydia –bap 5/5/1887 born 5 Aug 1887
                                      Alfred Joseph – born 12/11/1888 Bap 9 Dec 1888
                                      Mary Ann Louisa – Bap 8/1/1893 no image
                                      Caroline – bap 18/7/1897 no birthdate given
                                      Ada – born 8/12/1898 Bap 18 Jan 1899
                                      James Russell Bap 29 Jul 1894 No birthdate given

                                      Edit: there isn't a baptism for Rosina Martha listed with Alfred and Lydia that I can see at the moment.
                                      Only these two before the 1891 census

                                      Rosina Russell
                                      9 Jan 1889 Walworth All Saints Southwark William,
                                      Rosina

                                      Rosina Wilhelmina Russell
                                      12 Dec 1889 St Mark, Marylebone Road Westminster Thomas,
                                      Rosina
                                      Last edited by Katarzyna; 28-09-17, 13:51.
                                      Kat

                                      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        OOps to late to edit but Lydia bap 5/5/1887 born 5 Aug 1887 should read Born 5/5/1887 bap 5 Aug 1887
                                        Kat

                                        My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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