Great Great Grandmother Mary Morrison born in 1820 in Hudson's Bay (?)

[Quasimodo]

Hello Family Tree Forum! This is my first post and I wonder if anyone could help me with this birth place. My Great Great Grandmother Mary Morrison has her birth place recorded as Hudson's Bay in the Scotland 1851 Census.

She and her husband Andrew Irvine were living in Queen Street Stromness, Orkney at the time of the 1851 Census. At first I thought there must be a place in the Orkney Islands called Hudson's Bay which wouldn't be surprising given the long association between the Hudson's Bay Company and Orkney. But in the 1841 Census Mary Morrison and her first two children were recorded as not being born in Scotland.

To complicate matters further Mary Morrison's death certificate (1884 in South Melbourne, Victoria, Australia) records her as having been born in New York City around 1814 and having married Andrew Irvine in New York City when she was 19. But according to both the 1841 and 1851 Census records she would have been born in 1820.

So I'm thinking she and her first two children were probably born somewhere in the Hudson's Bay Company's territory in Canada. Is this at all likely?

I am intrigued by this seemingly adventurous woman and would dearly like to know something more about her life so any help would be much appreciated.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Hello Quasimodo and welcome to FTF.

Death certificates are the weakest source of certificated information because they only record what the informant thinks they know which might be just a wild guess.

Scotland ( and England for that matter) did a lot of trading with Hudson's Bay and I have one or two Scottish fishermen who had connections to Hudson's Bay, so it is quite plausible that she was born there.

Have you looked on family search for birth and marriage?

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Just had a quick google and there is reams of information about the relationship between the Scots islanders and Hudson Bay.

A wild thought- maybe the reference to "new York" is a half-remembered mention of "York factory" which was the headquarters of the Hudson Bay company.

OC

[Quasimodo]

Hello and thanks for your reply Olde Crone Holden. Yes I have done multiple searches on various sites including Family Search and I have a world subscription to Ancestry.com but I can't find her birth record or their marriage record. I have also looked at the Hudson's Bay Company employee records but as far as I could see they only go up to 1830 which is probably not late enough.

It is interesting that you say she may have been born there because I read somewhere in my wanderings that women were not allowed by the HBC to go out into the frontier territories, although I don't know what they could have done to stop them. Apparently some of the men took up with native women not surprisingly so it occurred to me that there may be a slim chance that Mary Morrison may have been the product of such a relationship.

[Quasimodo]

The York Factory. Well done, that is a neat association! I will have to do some serious searching on that one. Yes the HBC and Stromness were as thick as thieves apparently. I read that at one time one third of the men from Stromness were employed by the HBC.

[kylejustin]

Did her husband die in victoria too? If so, what did it record about the marriage? I find australian death certs very informative and quite accurate.

[Quasimodo]

Hello kylejustin. Yes Andrew Irvine died in Hotham (North Melbourne) in 1888 but I am reluctant to fork out another $25 dollars for his death certificate given I have already spent a small fortune on buying Vic BDM's outrageously expensive records. I am worried that the same daughter who was the informant on Mary Morrison's death certificate will crop up again as the informant on her father's giving the same wrong information as she gave on her mothers.

[Sylvia C]

.... there were First Nations all around the forts and trading posts.

Many children were born as a result of real and common-law marriages between Hudson's Bay employees and factors and local women.


That is a more likely possibility as there were indeed very few "white" women allowed.

[Quasimodo]

Hello Sylvia C. I wonder if the daughter (also Mary) deliberately put the wrong information on her mother's death certificate to cover up what might have been regarded as a somewhat shameful family secret. That her mother was half a native Canadian woman and may have been born out of wedlock too for that matter.

When the Irvines were in Orkney they were apparently devout Christians. They were caught up in some schism and changed churches which was why I couldn't find the birth records for the later children. And on Ancestry.com.au there are some people saying that Andrew Irvine's father George Irvine died in Laizhou, Yexian, Shandong, China in 1841, presumably a missionary of some sort.

[Olde Crone Holden]

What was Andrew's occupation in 1841 and 51?

OC

[Quasimodo]

OC in 1841 Andrew was a Taylor and Mary was a Sewer and in 1851 Andrew was an Ag Lab which I take it was an agricultural labourer and Mary had no occupation listed.

[Olde Crone Holden]

That's a bit odd. I wouldn't expect a tailor to drop down to an at lab but I suppose it is possible. Definitely the same couple in both census?

OC

[Quasimodo]

Well unless there were two Andrew and Mary Irvine's of the same age with children who had identical names living in Stromness I take it they were the same couple. And I suppose they might have been a taylor and sewer wherever they had been in Canada but there may not have been much call for that kind of work, or it was already well catered for, in Stromness and the surrounding area so Andrew had to fall back on what was available. I guess.

[Chrissie Smiff]

On Janet's baptism, which says born 12th June 1841 and baptised 29th August 1841 - Father Andrew Irvine, Mother Mary Morrison - it gives the father's occupation as Seaman.

In 1841 he is listed as a Tailor, living with his parents and Mary is listed as Mary Morrison with a George Morrison aged 4 and a James Morrison aged 3 - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...=try&h=1555442

In 1851 he is listed as an Ag Lab and Mary and the James from 1841 (now 13) are listed as Irvine -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Glz49&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=1851Scotland&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Andrew&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Irvine&gsln_x=0&msbpn__ftp=Stromness,%20Orkney&mssng=Mary&MSAV=1&uidh=uo6&pcat=1851UKI&fh=0&h=486276&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

[Quasimodo]

It seems like he was turning his hand to whatever he could to make a living.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Or perhaps he was always a Sailor not a Tailor, haha!

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Is the 1841 census a transcription? I don't have access to Ancestry to check.

If it is a transcription, I bet my last penny he was a sailor not a tailor. Ancestry transformed many of my Scottish ancestors into weird and wonderful occupations, the best of which was a samartive beguine bleaner.

It was quite normal for Scottish married women to use their maiden names.

OC

[Caroline]

Is the 1841 census a transcription? I don't have access to Ancestry to check.

If it is a transcription, I bet my last penny he was a sailor not a tailor. Ancestry transformed many of my Scottish ancestors into weird and wonderful occupations, the best of which was a samartive beguine bleaner.

It was quite normal for Scottish married women to use their maiden names.

OC

I had some spare credits. It looks like it is Taylor but I thought at first sight that Mary is listed as Servant rather than sewer, but there is an uptick/flourish that probably isn't a "t"..

[GallowayLass]

Agree with OC on use of own surname for women also agree with Mary being a sewer. If she was a servant she would have been shown as F.S. (short for Female Servant).

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Is the 1841 census a transcription? I don't have access to Ancestry to check.

If it is a transcription, I bet my last penny he was a sailor not a tailor. Ancestry transformed many of my Scottish ancestors into weird and wonderful occupations, the best of which was a samartive beguine bleaner.It was quite normal for Scottish married women to use their maiden names.

OC

Yes, lots of people who proudly think their Sawyer is a Lawyer, as per the Ancestry transcriptions.

Jay