Illegitimacy

[andrew193]

It would appear that my great grandparents never actually got married, no marriage has ever been found, even though all paperwork states husband/wife, mother/father. Even though they stayed togeather all there lives and had several children would this, technicaly, make all the children Illegitimate? We are taking late 1800's here.

Andrew

[AntonyM]

You need to check that there wasn't a marriage somewhere you aren't expecting ( Scotland, India etc) especially if the husband was in the army or travelled for work. Then you need to check that they haven't married using an unexpected name (perhaps due to a previous marriage), but sometimes there just isn't a marriage to be found, so yes the children would be legally illegitimate.

The wording used on the birth certificates of any children they had will confirm whether or not they were actually claiming to be married.

The most common reason for this situation is that one of them had a previous marriage that broke down and so they were not free to marry each other (divorce being too expensive an option for many to consider).

[andrew193]

Thank you AntonyM.
They were circus/theatre people and despite a notice in "The Era" newspaper of the time stating a marriage took place the previous week nothing has been traced. I've made enquireies in this country, Scotland, Ireland and even USA. All there childrens birth certs state them as being married. I have no knowledge of any previous marriages but that is always a possibilty.

Andrew

[AntonyM]

I suppose they may have had a marriage "ceremony" that didn't conform with the legal requirements (no banns or notice given etc.) maybe because of their travelling lifestyle. You might want to speak to a researcher who has studied travelling show/circus people of that time and see if there was a history of such informal marriages.

[andrew193]

I suppose they may have had a marriage "ceremony" that didn't conform with the legal requirements (no banns or notice given etc.) maybe because of their travelling lifestyle. You might want to speak to a researcher who has studied travelling show/circus people of that time and see if there was a history of such informal marriages.

My Uncle has suggested a "circus marriage" not a "proper" one as a possibility but i've never been able to find any information on wether or not these took place.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Interesting that the marriage was announced in "The Era" - perhaps that in itself is significant, indicating that it was a cultural tie, rather than a legal one. Might be worth trying to investigate such "Era" announcements - can you find corresponding legal arrangements for most other marriage announcements?
As Antony has said, maybe the constant moving on to a new venue every week made it difficult to comply with legal requirements? Could they have had a religious ceremony only, without the required presence of a registrar?

Jay

[Olde Crone Holden]

I have previously looked at this matter for Andrew and I am certain this couple did not enter into a legal marriage at the time or place (Egremont) that they said they did.

My take on the situation is that one of them ( probably Raymond) was already married. Sophia was pregnant and as she was a performing acrobat, that would be apparent very early in the pregnancy. Probably there was gossip and the announcement in the Era was to shut people up and ensure a smooth passage in society and in the performing world. They could have obtained a special licence and married anywhere, if they had been free to marry.

A " hand fast" marriage is not a legal one of course, so yes, the children were illegitimate. They were not alone!

OC

[andrew193]

Interesting that the marriage was announced in "The Era" - perhaps that in itself is significant, indicating that it was a cultural tie, rather than a legal one. Might be worth trying to investigate such "Era" announcements - can you find corresponding legal arrangements for most other marriage announcements?
As Antony has said, maybe the constant moving on to a new venue every week made it difficult to comply with legal requirements? Could they have had a religious ceremony only, without the required presence of a registrar?

Jay

If it was "Religious Ceremony" only would there have been any record of it and if so where would they be?

[Olde Crone Holden]

I have never heard of a religious only ceremony, well, not by the established church anyway. There would be no record of this and it would not be a legal marriage. I think you just have to accept that there was no marriage. You would be surprised how common that was.

OC

[andrew193]

Thank you OC and i must admit that, given the time, i'm surprised that this was as common as you suggest.

Andrew

[Guest]

it was a lot more common than I thought it would be, I have some not marrying till after the first spouse had died, and quite a few never married.
Can we know their names ?

[andrew193]

it was a lot more common than I thought it would be, I have some not marrying till after the first spouse had died, and quite a few never married.
Can we know their names ?

Raymond Furniss B1867 New Brighton Cheshire & Sophia Foster B1871 Todmorden . Sophia went under the circus names of Mademoiselle Sophia Hogini & Mademoiselle Millie Carlotta and also Millie Carlotta.

Andrew

[Olde Crone Holden]

It was common because there was no divorce, except for the very rich. Many people committed bigamy of course but in the eyes of the law the children born of a deliberately bigamous marriage were still illegitimate. Of course, everyone PRETENDED to be married.

OC

[vera2013]

Andrew

My great grandmother b Co Armagh came to Scotland and according to the birth records on SP for her children "married" the same man in if I recall at least x4 different churches. Never found a marriage for any. I suspect she was very young when she found herself pregnant with first child or just didn't bother. My great grandfather was not married at the time.
I won't go on about my great Aunt and her liaisons.

Vera

[andrew193]

Andrew

My great grandmother b Co Armagh came to Scotland and according to the birth records on SP for her children "married" the same man in if I recall at least x4 different churches. Never found a marriage for any. I suspect she was very young when she found herself pregnant with first child or just didn't bother. My great grandfather was not married at the time.
I won't go on about my great Aunt and her liaisons.

Vera

Sounds like she was abit of a lass Vera.

[vera2013]

Indeed:D

Vera

[andrew193]

It was common because there was no divorce, except for the very rich. Many people committed bigamy of course but in the eyes of the law the children born of a deliberately bigamous marriage were still illegitimate. Of course, everyone PRETENDED to be married.

OC

As has been said on here previous it looks like it was a "marriage of convenience" due to there circus work and as you said they "pretended" to be married. But as you know OC from my Eccles thread it's also easy to "pretend" to be single !!!! ;);)

[PhotoFamily]

In the case of my ancestors, he apparently had a previous marriage that did not work out. When they finally married (well after all the children were born), he was a "widower" and she a "spinster". Apparently his first wife had died by that time.

Any possibility that either of your ancestors was previously married?

[Olde Crone Holden]

I think a previous marriages would be the only reason a couple would live together but not marry. They would have to be extremely bohemian to deliberately live together and have children without marrying. Social suicide! And of course, this was a couple who were pretending to be married, so they were observing the moral custom, not making a lifestyle statement.

OC

[andrew193]

In the case of my ancestors, he apparently had a previous marriage that did not work out. When they finally married (well after all the children were born), he was a "widower" and she a "spinster". Apparently his first wife had died by that time.

Any possibility that either of your ancestors was previously married?

Although i can't discount it totaly the timeline is a very tight one and i think it's unlikely.

Andrew