Who Likes a Puzzle?

[Paulc]

This has been bothering me and annoying me for months and months now, I am trying to find any trace of a very elusive ancestor!

I am looking for any records or reference to a Josephine Daniels (Daniel) born apps 1904 in Dublin.

The only reference to her existence is the 1911 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/Sarah_Place/59120/

Daniels John 25 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic
Daniels Mary 27 Female Sister Roman Catholic
Daniels Maggie 18 Female Sister Roman Catholic
Daniels William 16 Male Brother Roman Catholic
Daniels Josephine 4 Female Sister Roman Catholic

After months and months of fruitless search i cannot find a birth death or marriage reference for her anywhere. I have tried ancestry FMP and more recently the irish genealogy site.

With the recent opening of the irish records online, I thought this would then solve my problem completely, but still no joy. i have just trawled today, through every birth of a Josephine with any surname, in Dublin between 1900 and 1909!! still no joy.

I have also assumed and tried searching assuming she was the older sisters child, namely Mary's daughter, she married a George Byrne later in life, but still no joy under all those names either.

I can find all the details of all the younger siblings, just nothing for Josephine, surely she must be there somewhere??

A prize if anybody can find her!!! Its been driving me mad!!

[Paulc]

If the census is correct she was born 1906/07. Her father John Daniels senior, died in 1906 aged 59, so unlikely he fathered a child then.

[JudithM]

Not sure why you think a 59 year old couldn't father a child but failing that, and given you can't find any births in 1906/7 could it be that Josephine was actually 14 not 4 annd John made a slip of the pen when he filled out the census form?

[Paulc]

Hi Judith, Im not ruling anything out at the moment, I am only suggesting John senior might not be the father because i can't find a record of her anywhere, i was just broadening the search by suggesting she might be the older sisters child. 14 is definitely worth a shout and worth another search through the various sites again, although I have searched for any Josephine daniels any age previously.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I'm wondering if she was known in the family as Josephine, but was registered as XXXXX (saint's name) Josephine.
I think Saint Josephine was a twentieth century canonization - Josephine Margaret Bakhita, (c1869 – 8 February 1947) However, I'm not a Roman Catholic and am not au fait with all their saints.

Perhaps you need to investigate what Dublin RC church bp records are available and search for a possible Daniel(s) child??

Jay

[Karamazov]

I assume this is the 1906 death reg for 59 year old John Daniel (sic) who died in Dublin workhouse you are referring to?

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/56918310862965?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3DJohn%26namel%3DDaniel%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1906%26yyto%3D1906%26type%3DD%26submit%3DSearch

How do you know that the workhouse John Daniel is the father of the 1911 family? Do you have the birth registrations for John junior, Mary and Maggie? If so, what were parents' names including mother's maiden name? Do you have the older brother and sisters in 1901, before Josephine was born? If so, can you post the link here?

Might have to come at this from all sorts of different angles ... But I'm up for the puzzle!

Christine

[Karamazov]

There is a reg for a Josephine Mary Daniel born 26 May 1904 in Donnybrook which is broadly the same area of the city as Kilmainham, but her father is Alfred Daniel, not John.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/2de8473012954?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3DJosephine%26namel%3DD*l%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1904%26yyto%3D1908%26type%3DB%26submit%3DSearch

Hence my question about 1906 workhouse John Daniel in previous post...

Christine

[Paulc]

Hi Christine
The 1906 death entry that you have is the correct entry

Son John born 1886

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02583/1954405.pdf

Daughter Mary Margaret Daniel baptised St. Paul's arran quay 1883

Daughter Elizabeth born 1889

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02465/1915391.pdf

Daughter Margaret born 1894

William Daniel born 16 April
1895 St. Paul's arran quash

Parents in all cases John Daniels and Elizabeth McCormack

These are cross referenced against both marriage and death entries

Sarah Place as an address is common in a lot of cases.

[Paulc]

Also some of the brothers and sisters are witnesses aT weddings. Brothers John and William were in the military and their records also confirm siblings home address parents etc.

[Anne in Carlisle]

You say you checked all the Josephines but did you check all the Daniels? Maybe she was just registered as 'female' or with some other forname. Very long shot ..... she might have been mistakenly registered as a boy. Did you check all the Josephs?
Just a few suggestions from other angles!
Anne

[Paulc]

Sorry for the delay in replying was out all day yesterday, but I'm here all day today..............

Thanks for all the good suggestions, I will try to answer some of the questions raised.

The naming of the saints name is a good suggestion and follows on from the older daughters names as well and is something to pursue.

I have looked at Daniel and Daniels births, i looked at any in Dublin that fitted the time frame and still found nothing, not even an unnamed child that fitted the dates and family. I am going to recheck every thing again today from the start.

but just to summarise the details that i have for the rest of the family, I have the following certificates or church records.


John Senior.............marriage, death, burial

Elizabeth Senior............birth, marriage, death

John Junior.............birth, marriage, death, burial

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Junior..........birth, marriage x 2, death, burial

Mary................birth, marriage

Maggie.............Did not marry, death, burial

William...........birth, did not marry, death

Josephine...................zero!!

The family are also listed as witnesses at various events.

Mary is the informant at her Mothers death.
Margaret Daniels is a witness at her brother Johns marriage to catherine o"mara

Interesting entry here
Witness to Elizabeths (Lizzie junior) second marriage to Frederick Ensum in 1917 John Daniels and Mary Josephine Daniel (Her baptism shows Mary Margaret Daniel)

Does this fit with the saint naming?
Why have middle names that match the first names of other children??




I also have found absolutley loads of references to all the family members on FMP Dublin Workhouse records all around the turn of the century, with every single child mentioned apart from Josephine. You can find John, Lizzie, Mary, Maggie and William.

[Paulc]

Some theories and counter theories..............

The child must exist otherwise why list her on the census at all.
The child could be an illegititmate child of either John or Mary.
The child could genuinely be the child of John Senior and Elizabeth McCormack.
The age could be wrong she could for example be 14 and not 4.

The fact that she is not mentioned in any workhouse records supports that fact she was born after the families last visit to the workhouse which was 1903, this supports the census age being correct and giving her a birth year of appx 1906/07

[Paulc]

As John Junior married relatively later in life, born 1885 married 1921, I have checked for an earlier marriage for him but no luck.

[Katarzyna]

There is a reg for a Josephine Mary Daniel born 26 May 1904 in Donnybrook which is broadly the same area of the city as Kilmainham, but her father is Alfred Daniel, not John.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/2de8473012954?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3DJosephine%26namel%3DD*l%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1904%26yyto%3D1908%26type%3DB%26submit%3DSearch

Hence my question about 1906 workhouse John Daniel in previous post...

Christine

These two baptisms are related in someway. ie both registered by Kate Hogan - one as mother of her own child and one [ Josephine ] as present at her birth.
I cannot find a marriage for Alfred Daniel/s to an Anne/Annie Nolan and wonder if he was named as the father; although for Catholics at the time it would be rare?
I wonder if Alfred was a brother/cousin of John and both he and Elizabeth 'adopted' Josephine after leaving the workhouse in 1903. It would explain the gap in ages between the last of their children and Josephine.

Just speculating!
Donnybrook baps.JPG

[Paulc]

thanks for the reply, all speculation is helpful, but that doesn't explain why she is listed in the 1911 census as living with her siblings, if they adopted her surely she would be living with them in 1911 and on their census entry???

this is so frustrating

[Katarzyna]

Sorry I don't understand that.

[Paulc]

you posted earlier

I wonder if Alfred was a brother/cousin of John and both he and Elizabeth 'adopted' Josephine after leaving the workhouse in 1903. It would explain the gap in ages between the last of their children and Josephine.

if she was adopted by Alfred and his family at this time, why would she be listed as living in the 1911 census with her siblings?

[Paulc]

The only reference to her existence is the 1911 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.i...h_Place/59120/

Daniels John 25 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic
Daniels Mary 27 Female Sister Roman Catholic
Daniels Maggie 18 Female Sister Roman Catholic
Daniels William 16 Male Brother Roman Catholic
Daniels Josephine 4 Female Sister Roman Catholic

[Paulc]

I have found a marriage entry for 1948

Name: Josephine Daniel
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep, 1948
Registration district: Dublin South, Ireland
Volume: 2
Page Number: 761
FHL Film Number: 101581


Its a long shot but I've ordered a copy of the cert today

[Katarzyna]

you posted earlier

I wonder if Alfred was a brother/cousin of John and both he and Elizabeth 'adopted' Josephine after leaving the workhouse in 1903. It would explain the gap in ages between the last of their children and Josephine.

if she was adopted by Alfred and his family at this time, why would she be listed as living in the 1911 census with her siblings?

You misunderstood ....and both he and Elizabeth ... meaning John and his wife Elizabeth. Which fits in with the rest of the sentence and the following one.