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Stuck with my family research ..... help appreciated !

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  • Stuck with my family research ..... help appreciated !

    Looking for some help with my family tree which has been a little "stuck" for many years now !


    I have safely traced my ancestry back to WILLIAM YOUNG (c.1859-1916 "Worcestershire") who married ELIZABETH HOWELL (1861-1944 "Birmingham") at St Andrews, Bordesley in May 1883. Where I am struggling is in finding William's father who is listed on his marriage certificate as another WILLIAM YOUNG - occupation "carter".


    My biggest problem is that I can not find William & Elizabeth's family on the 1891 census nor the 1911 census. After years of not finding them on the 1901 census too, I discovered them listed under Elizabeth's maiden name "Howell" at 116 Crockett's Road, Handsworth ..... their children matching with records I have so it is them.


    William is listed as a "Greengrocer and Coal Dealer" on the 1901 census but, from what I can find, William was never more than a basic handyman and was never a shopkeeper. However, Elizabeth's brother John B Howell (b1874) was a shopkeeper AND was at 116 Cockett's Road in 1903 for sure.


    On the face of it, William has avoided two of the census returns and appeared on one but under his wife's maiden name and seemingly pretending to be his brother in law !


    Without these census returns, I'm struggling to find his father William Senior. I have made an assumption that it is a William Young b.1831 in Redmarley and married to Emma Tyler (b1838) at Great Malvern (1856) ...... it works quite well but I would dearly love to be more certain.


    So ..... if anybody can help here to either find William and Elizabeth's family on the census returns OR find William's father OR even make some sense of what is going on, then I would be very, very grateful !!!

  • #2
    Welcome to the Forum.

    Have you found a birth registration for William at all? Can you give the link for the census you have found please or the reference number.

    What was William b1861 occupation? What fact linked you to this couple?

    Margaret
    Last edited by margaretmarch; 29-01-17, 13:23.

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's the marriage with online image http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=2

      it says William's occupation is 'sawyer' age 24 (makes yob 1861) father William occupation 'carter' and Elizabeth is age 19 (makes yob 1864)father Thomas labourer. Both are at the same address of Keeley St. Bordesley.

      Margaret
      Last edited by margaretmarch; 29-01-17, 13:37.

      Comment


      • #4
        So - found the 1901 you refer to http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/78...&usePUBJs=true

        Not sure why you think this is them as both say born in Worcestershire! Which of the children are you descended from?

        Margaret

        Comment


        • #5
          Checked on GRO and most of the children on 1901 have MMN Howell plus a load more born either Kings Norton or Aston.

          Looked up some of the younger ones but can't find them on 1911

          However Ellen born 1885 is on 1891 census in Lancaster St Birmingham with William31, and Elizabeth 29, Joseph 10 and Elizabeth aged 2 all born Birmingham

          Ref RG12 2392 133 page 3

          I will keep looking for anything else
          Lin

          Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
            Checked on GRO and most of the children on 1901 have MMN Howell plus a load more born either Kings Norton or Aston.

            Looked up some of the younger ones but can't find them on 1911

            However Ellen born 1885 is on 1891 census in Lancaster St Birmingham with William31, and Elizabeth 29, Joseph 10 and Elizabeth aged 2 all born Birmingham

            Ref RG12 2392 133 page 3

            I will keep looking for anything else
            Thanks Lin.
            Here's the link for anyone who can use it http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/65...&usePUBJs=true

            Margaret

            Comment


            • #7
              The transcript for 1891 living at 24 Court, 4 House, Lancaster Street, St Marys Birmingham
              William Young 31 Wire Drawer born Birmingham
              Elizabeth Young 29 born Birmingham
              Joseph Young 10 born Birmingham
              Ellen Young 7 born Birmingham
              Elizabeth Young 2 born Birmingham

              For the 1901 name of Howell living at 116 Crockett Road Handsworth, Staffs.

              William Howell 40 coal merchant & green grocer born Worcestershire
              Elizabeth Howell 38 born Worcestershire
              Ellen Howell 15 born Birmingham
              William Howell 13 born Birmingham
              Harry Howell 11 born Birmingham
              Florence Howell 9 born Birmingham
              Frederick Howell 7 born Birmingham
              Arthur Howell 4 born Birmingham
              Beatrice Howell 2 born Birmingham
              Alfred Howell 3/12 born Birmingham

              Margaret

              Comment


              • #8
                Could this be them in 1911 under Young again http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=3

                William Young 55 machinist born Birmingham
                Elizabeth Young 48 born Birmingham
                Edward Young 15 wood sawyer born Birmingham
                Arthur Young 13 born Birmingham
                Beatrice Young 12 born Birmingham
                Thomas Young 7 born Birmingham - birth YOUNG, THOMAS HENRY MMN: HOWELL GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in KING'S NORTON Volume 06C Page 457
                J George Young 3 born Birmingham - birth YOUNG, GEORGE MMN: HOWELL GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 231

                It's the 1901 census that's throwing the whole thing out!

                Margaret

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here're the births for 2 of the children

                  YOUNG, ARTHUR MMN: HOWELL GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in KINGS NORTON Volume 06C Page 454
                  YOUNG, FRED MMN: HOWELL GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 419

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Begin your discovery today by exploring the world's largest online family history resource!


                    This is a right old bodge of a transcription from Ancestry. Initials of first names only

                    I can see possible births on GRO for the children with mmn Howell but not in Malvern - in
                    Birmingham, Kings Norton and Aston

                    I will transcribe from FMP

                    Living at Bolton Road Bordesley, Aston, Birmingham

                    Young, W 32 Machinist ? stock born Malvern
                    Young, E 26
                    Young, E 6
                    Young, W 4
                    Young, J 2
                    Young, Thos 0

                    Vera
                    Last edited by vera2013; 30-01-17, 01:11.

                    Comment


                    • #11


                      Looks like they changed their mind on Thomas and baptized him Harry

                      March 15th 1891 All Saints Memorial Church, Small Heath, Birmingham

                      Harry
                      f William Machinist in a Gun factory
                      m Elizabeth

                      385 Bolton Road

                      James baptism bottom of adjacent page


                      Vera
                      Last edited by vera2013; 30-01-17, 02:18.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Begin your discovery today by exploring the world's largest online family history resource!


                        This is a possibility although some info completely out ie marriage children born and died

                        William Young 55 Machinist - cars born all born Birmingham
                        Elizabeth 48
                        Edward 15 Sawyer
                        Arthur 13
                        Beatrice 12
                        Thomas 7
                        J George 3

                        living 104 Whitehall Road, Small Heath

                        I can see possible birth regs for all the children except Edward with mmn Howell, There is a birth reg for a Fred with mmn Howell

                        Vera
                        Last edited by vera2013; 30-01-17, 03:18.

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                        • #13
                          Wow ..... thanks folks ...... great work !

                          Vera2013's post above is correct - I believe this is them for sure - I do know he was born in Great Malvern now albeit that quick and dirty record is wrong on the birthplaces which were definitely Birmingham which is where they married in 1883.

                          I also believe he was descended from a William Young born in Redmarley who was sadly a Wesleyan Methodist so that's probably as far back as I'm ever going to get !!!!

                          My two main areas of interest/curiosity now are (a) where were they on the 1911 census - and I will look into the link above as it looks more likely now than I previously believed and (b) what exactly WAS going on in 1901 with the avoidance of the family name (probably never know that one). William looks like he was in Worcester (Salt Lane) prison on the 1881 census so all sorts could have been going on !

                          Many thanks again for your help and I continue to welcome any input or theories.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sid Cowans View Post

                            I also believe he was descended from a William Young born in Redmarley who was sadly a Wesleyan Methodist so that's probably as far back as I'm ever going to get !!!!
                            why? there are non conformist registers online and elsewhere so you still might be able to move backwards, never say never! :smilee:
                            Julie
                            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                            .......I find dead people

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re thread 12 1911 census. Although only those in the home on the given night are entered on the census, the number of children should be the total amount born to the couple with number of children who have died. The number of years married also. This of course doesn't match the facts of your William and Elizabeth although the names of the children do. I wonder if William chose only to give a total of 6, 5 currently living at home and one died, possibly Alfred b 1901. Not sure about marriage of 17 years but if my eyes don't receive me that record of length of marriage, children born, children who have died appears to have been recorded in a different handwriting and pen, pencil.

                              Will take a look around to see if I can !Ink your possible William and Emma as parents with the William who married Elizabeth Howell 1893

                              Vera

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Capture Young 1911.JPGCapture Younf marriage.JPG


                                Just trying to confirm the 1911 census. What do you think about these signatures. Left is the marriage 1883 and right is the 1911

                                Pity he hadn't signed his full first name in 1911

                                Vera
                                Last edited by vera2013; 30-01-17, 18:31.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Thank you for all of your help on this one - very much appreciated !

                                  I think there are "lazy" entries on some of these returns but there are enough matching fundamentals to link them all up now and I'll be spending a few weeks drilling down on what is a very large family !

                                  I have also ordered the 1859 birth certificate for the Great Malvern William Young which I fully expect will prove the link back to the Redmarley/Bromsberrow Youngs that I have penciled in as my ancestors for many years.

                                  If that is the case, then my attention turns to a William Young born around 1806 in Pendock, Gloucestershire (confirmed on every census). He married Sarah Dawding (actually Dowding) in Tewkesbury. I have checked online parish records for Pendock and can't find evidence of him being christened/baptized there so I'm stuck on that one. He could have been baptised anywhere in the region and I suspect it might be non-conformist too ..... although I can't prove that.

                                  I'm not very good with pre-1841 research so any ideas on how to find Pendock William's birth details and, hopefully, his parents would be greatly appreciated !

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    William does give me the impression he didn't care too much when he was completing the census forms. Still not sure where Elizabeth Howell was born. I wonder if he was a bit of a rebel. Do you know why he was incarcerated in 1881. Saw some rabble rousing amongst youths on FMP newspapers. Will re-check

                                    William's baptism is on Ancestry as I think you know. Great Malvern father William, mother Emma. but not definite yet that is the William who married Elizabeth Howell.

                                    The witnesses at his marriage don't throw up any links. So far no links to the siblings of that William b to William and Emma.
                                    Although I can see George ended up in Small Heath. There is a good naming pattern with William and Elizabeth's children to those of William and Emma.

                                    Will prod around some more.

                                    Vera
                                    Last edited by vera2013; 31-01-17, 20:28.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Thanks Vera.

                                      Do you have a link to William's baptism record ? I'm sure I have it but would like to check and I do subscribe to Ancestry.

                                      William's spell in Worcester prison in 1881 was for "attempt to commit and unnatural act" in the village of Castlemorton ..... less said the better on that one ;) !!!

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