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WW1 or not??? Searching for a Soldier

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  • WW1 or not??? Searching for a Soldier

    I am trying to locate any army service records for a William Daniels details as follows


    First name: William
    Last name: Daniels
    Unit: Royal Dublin Fusiliers
    Army number: 7075892
    Place of birth: St. James, Dublin
    Trade on enlistment: Labourer
    Age on attestation: 24
    Date of attestation: 16/04/1919
    Place of attestation: Dublin
    Address of next of kin: 21 Island Bridge, Dublin
    Address on discharge: 21 Sarah Place, Island Bridge, Dublin


    Now obviously WW1 ended in 1918 am I right to assume William enlisted on 16/4/1919? If so that places outside WW1 records. But searching on ancestry most of their search categories for WW1 go up to 1920??


    Any help as always much appreciated.
    My Family History Blog Site:

    https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

  • #2
    Looking at the info that I have from the national
    Army museum



    It appears that he possibly had several regimental numbers

    RDF 8856
    R? Regt 16502

    If I can decipher the above document correctly.
    My Family History Blog Site:

    https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Paulc View Post
      Looking at the info that I have from the national
      Army museum



      It appears that he possibly had several regimental numbers

      RDF 8856
      R? Regt 16502

      If I can decipher the above document correctly.
      Had a quick look and in the end column for your man it says he was in the RI 16 05 02 so 16 May 1902 . I expect the date of attestation in 1919 is simply a re-enlistment. It seems he did have several regimental numbers.
      Margaret

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Margaret, I was hoping the 16502 was his RI Regiment number ?? As he was born 1895.
        My Family History Blog Site:

        https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

        Comment


        • #5
          This is getting interesting ......


          Back
          British Army, deserters and absentees in Police Gazette 1914-1919 Transcription
          Print transcription View image
          First name(s) William
          Last name Daniels
          Age 21
          Birth year 1895
          Birth place St James, Dublin
          Year 1916
          Service number 8856
          Unit/Regiment 4th Battalion
          Regiment Royal Dublin Fusiliers
          County Dublin
          Country Ireland
          Record set British Army, deserters and absentees in Police Gazette 1914-1919
          My Family History Blog Site:

          https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Paulc View Post
            Thanks Margaret, I was hoping the 16502 was his RI Regiment number ?? As he was born 1895.
            Oops! didn't take in his date of birth so I guess a regimental number is more likely than a date

            Margaret

            Comment


            • #7
              image.jpg

              It looks like he did serve in WW1 but still can't see any attestation papers for him.
              Last edited by Paulc; 30-12-16, 12:37.
              My Family History Blog Site:

              https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

              Comment


              • #8
                I have tried numerous searches on ancestry for various records, without much luck apart from the medal card if anybody else can throw any light on it?

                It looks like his regiment numbers are

                Royal Dublin Fusiliers 8856
                Royal Irish Regiment 16502
                Royal Dublin Fusiliers 32219
                Last edited by Paulc; 30-12-16, 16:26.
                My Family History Blog Site:

                https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paulc View Post
                  I have tried numerous searches on ancestry for various records, without much luck apart from the medal card if anybody else can throw any light on it?

                  It looks like his regiment numbers are

                  Royal Dublin Fusiliers 8856
                  Royal Irish Regiment 16502
                  Royal Dublin Fusiliers 32219
                  Well of course not all the records survived especially through WW2 when the file storage facility was bombed.

                  Have you looked for regimental websites that might have more information. More often than not thought all that remains is a medal card.

                  Margaret

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Margaret will take a look at those later today.
                    My Family History Blog Site:

                    https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Having been issued with a 7 digit service number and apparently served past 1920, any surviving record is likely to still be with the MoD - you can see what is needed to apply for them here - https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Sue, that's new information to me I wasn't aware of that so thank you for pointing that out. Thanks to this great forum I am expanding my knowledge all the time.
                        My Family History Blog Site:

                        https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Paulc View Post
                          This is getting interesting ......


                          Back
                          British Army, deserters and absentees in Police Gazette 1914-1919 Transcription
                          Print transcription View image
                          First name(s) William
                          Last name Daniels
                          Age 21
                          Birth year 1895
                          Birth place St James, Dublin
                          Year 1916
                          Service number 8856
                          Unit/Regiment 4th Battalion
                          Regiment Royal Dublin Fusiliers
                          County Dublin
                          Country Ireland
                          Record set British Army, deserters and absentees in Police Gazette 1914-1919

                          If you look at the image of this record on FindMyPast, it gives some information

                          description:- 5'1¾" tall, black hair, brown eyes
                          previous occupation:- general labourer
                          Enlisted:- 10 Jan 1913, Dublin
                          Born:- St James, Dublin
                          Deserted:- 10 Oct, Mullingar
                          Additional"- Mole 1 arm


                          From The Police Gazette, Tuesday November 7 1916

                          thus presumably he deserted on 10 Oct 1916.


                          There is another report in The Police Gazette, December 5 1916 ........

                          it seems he deserted again on 12 Nov, from Mullingar.

                          It also gives his age as 21¾
                          My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                          Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks Sylvia I had a copy of the first entry but not the second entry so appreciate that. I've googled mullinger and it's not to far from Dublin presume he was barracked there at the time? I'm not sure if desertion is the right terminology, but it's what the army gave him listed as, think it's more likely he was just AWOL. Desertion sounds a lot harsher.
                            Last edited by Paulc; 08-01-17, 08:32.
                            My Family History Blog Site:

                            https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I expect you know of the Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916 and its relevance to Irish Nationalism. With that in mind, it seems quite reasonable that the British Army might well classify any absentee from an Irish base at that time as a deserter, particularly one who was Irish born.

                              merleyone

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I think the difference between AWOL and desertion is to do with the intention to return. So if you had permission to be absent, got drunk and fell asleep in ditch, that might be classed as AWOL. Desertion would be leaving barracks without permission and with a clear intention not to return, e.g. took all your kit with you.

                                In times of war desertion would be assumed. Harsh maybe but those are the military rules and every soldier knew them.

                                OC

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I agree it's about the intent and unfortunately I will never find that one out.

                                  I also found it strange initially to find two Irish Catholic brothers joining up with the British Army.
                                  My Family History Blog Site:

                                  https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

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                                  • #18
                                    WW1 or not

                                    Originally posted by Paulc View Post
                                    I agree it's about the intent and unfortunately I will never find that one out.

                                    I also found it strange initially to find two Irish Catholic brothers joining up with the British Army.
                                    During the 19th Century, Irish Catholics were the backbone of the British Army. Even in WW2 they came over to enlist.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by merleyone View Post
                                      I expect you know of the Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916 and its relevance to Irish Nationalism. With that in mind, it seems quite reasonable that the British Army might well classify any absentee from an Irish base at that time as a deserter, particularly one who was Irish born.

                                      merleyone
                                      I too would emphasise the importance of 1916 and the aftermath.
                                      Bear in mind that in 1919 the British government turned its attention to "dealing " with the Irish question, and that some of the conscripted British army were encouraged to sign on again to go to Ireland to deal with Sinn Fein, the Irish Citizen Army and others who supported a move towards the establishment of a republic.
                                      The following link might be of use (scroll down to p8)


                                      Jay
                                      Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 16-01-17, 15:03.
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Thanks Janet and Ebor for the additional info. It's hard for me to understand the context of how the divide affected people at the time. I will have to try and have a read up on the history a bit more of the easter rising to try and fit that into where my Daniels family would have fitted around the time of the uprising. Thanks for the link I'll take a look .
                                        Last edited by Paulc; 16-01-17, 17:16.
                                        My Family History Blog Site:

                                        https://chiddicksfamilytree.com

                                        Comment

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