HELP! I submit the following in the hope you can help crack a BRICKWALL.

[TOMARiDEAS]

Below are the details as I have them, for my apparently unbreakable brick wall – Hopefully you may help to knock it down.

My apologies for the length, but cannot make it any shorter.

I have spent the past 26 years researching my Family Tree, DEAS/DUNN, in Scotland, I have 2215 people in my tree, and I have got back to 1654 on my DEAS side and 1825 on my DUNN side, all with copies of registrations or copies of certificates and census returns, using SCOTLANDS PEOPLE web site, which provides much more useful information than English Records, hence my problem, I have one English entrance into my Family Tree, that being my Great Grandmother on my Father’s side.

She is named FRANCES WHITE born about either 1842 or 1844 according to her MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE, which took place on 6^th January 1874 in KIRKALDY, FIFE, SCOTLAND- her age is entered as 30 years married to JOHN DEAS born 12 October 1846, in PATHHEAD, DYSART, FIFE, SCOTLAND, her address at time of marriage is entered as MARYLEBONE, LONDON. (I could find no definite info on her in that area)

I have a copy of her DEATH REGISTRATION entry for 29^th FEBRUARY 1908 residence was 3 KINNAIRD BANK, PERTH, SCOTLAND. Her age is entered as 66 years, which suggests date of birth being 1842, not 1844.

I can find no identifiable trace of her Birth Registration, or Census entries, as I do not know where she was born, I suspect she was born in the MIDDLESEX/SUSSEX/HAMPSHIRE AREA and possibly BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, or NORTHHAMPTONSHIRE, maybe even NOTTINGHAMSHIRE only because they contain HAMSHIRE in the name, I have looked into those three in addition as entries on census returns in Scotland mention HAMPSHIRE, (I wonder if she could only remember the Hampshire bit) there are plenty of FRANCES and FANNY WHITES showing up in those areas, but nothing to tie her up with her parents as stated on her Marriage Certificate = JAMES WHITE & SARAH ANN SANDFORD or, as on her Death Certificate her Father is entered as JOHN JAMES WHITE (occupation = butler)- entry for her mother is not her original mother but her Fathers second wife as a MARY ANN MORGAN (both deceased by that time) (have not traced them)

However , I do have all the records for the children that FRANCES DEAS (nee WHITE) and her husband JOHN DEAS brought into the world, those being :-
JOHN WHITE DEAS b. 23^rd OCTOBER 1876 in DYSART, FIFE. (My Grandfather)
CHARLES BAXTER DEAS b. 3^rd SEPTEMBER 1879 in DYSART, FIFE.
WALTER DEAS b. 1882 in DYSART, FIFE.

I learned that CHARLES BAXTER DEAS had moved down to LONDON to work and got married there and died there.
I did a census check and discovered him in the 1901 CENSUS showing him residing at that time at 25 St Mary’s TERRACE, ST. MARY, PADDINGTON, LONDON. He was listed as NEPHEW with a family called BURLEY the head of which was called CHARLES BURLEY – wife – MARY ANN BURLEY (soon to discover nee WHITE)

A search for their MARRIAGE, found 5th OCTOBER 1851 St. MARTIN in the FIELDS, I applied for a copy of her marriage certificate, her Father entered as JAMES WHITE- her Residence at the time of Marriage entered as ROSE STREET, London (no trace of her there in 1851 Census that I can find) Witnessed by a C. WHITE & S. WHITE (I take that to be MARY ANN’S Brother CHARLES B. 1830, and his newly married Wife SUSANNAH WORDSWORTH married earlier that year also in St. MARTIN IN THE FIELDS. 29^TH June 1851 b. abt. 1827 Christened 2^nd Dec.1827, same place.

FRANCES DEAS (nee WHITE) had another son- JOHN WHITE DEAS (My Grandfather) who married an ALICE MARY CAMPBELL GRAY and had 3 sons, one of which was called JOHN BURLEY DEAS (My Uncle) that triggered my search to find family of Mary Ann Burley (nee White)

The scenario I feel that has taken place is-
A male member of a “WHITE” family in Fife Scotland, Possibly in DYSART/KIRKALDY AREA by the name of JAMES WHITE was born around 1760 in that area of Fife, Scotland.

Between 1780 & 1794 he went down to south of England to the area of LONDON/ MIDDLESEX/SUSSEX/HAMPSHIRE or BUCKINGHAMSHIRE.
He, married a MARY POTTS IN CHICHESTER SUSSEX, on 9^th August 1795 and they had a son JAMES WHITE Christened 10^th June 1796 in CHICHESTER.
That JAMES WHITE married ANN STEPHENS ON 31^ST May 1819 in Saint Marys, Portsea, Hampshire, England, and had JOHN, or JOHN JAMES b. 1820-1825? MARY ANN b. 1828 & CHARLES b. 1830. (I have both these marriage details)
JAMES or JOHN JAMES WHITE married a SARAH ANN SANDFORD or possibly SANFORD/FORD/FORT abt. 1842 (if at all)
They had the mysterious daughter FRANCES or FANNY WHITE who once of adult age perhaps visited elder relations on her father’s side back in FIFE, SCOTLAND.
She then met with JOHN DEAS of DYSART in FIFE, got married in January 1874 in KIRKALDY FIFE, whereupon their son CHARLES BAXTER DEAS once an adult started the travel south all over again to work, stayed with his AUNT MARY ANN BURLEY (NEE WHITE) and then met and MARRIED his wife , VIOLET SUTHERLAND.
CHARLES BAXTER DEAS lived in ACTON until he died in 1956 residing in MAIDAVALE MANSIONS, PADDINGTON.

I feel that we are looking for a:-
JAMES or JOHN JAMES WHITE, born abt. 1820/25 possibly in LONDON or MIDDLESEX
Or JOHN WHITE born abt. 1820/25 possibly in LONDON (I wonder if FRANCES got mixed up as to Whether her father was a James or John
MARY ANN WHITE (married CHARLES BURLEY) born abt. 1828 St. ANNS, SOHO, STRAND, WESTMINSTER, LONDON (every Census her age given is never accurate.( I have wedding certificate)
CHARLES WHITE born 1830 FRIMLEY HAMPSHIRE (I have also looked up Fawley & Firley in
SURREY. (also have their marriage details)

The only trace of all above together anywhere is in the 1841 Census, the year I would expect to see almost all together due to ages, in PORTSEA with parents –JAMES WHITE & ANN STEPHENS, an entry for a JAMES WHITE aged 20 and a SARAH FORT ARE ON THE NEXT PAGE – but need the proof ,so far cannot find any details of a marriage between them.

I cannot supply any more info on this, other than I have searched all the best sites for the required records to no avail so far.
I would be happy just to find out the BIRTH DETAILS of FRANCES or FANNY WHITE with possibly her Parents’ MARRIAGE & BIRTH DETAILS. Both their parents’ details would be a huge bonus.
I have searched many data base’s with no success .
My sole interest now is to complete all I mention above and maybe continue to find more of the WHITE FAMILY in SCOTLAND BACK THE WAY using SCOTLANDS PEOPLE, where you get Mother and Fathers names and towns on Birth Records and Marriage records

Can you help, if so I would be very grateful. Tom Deas

[Elizabeth Herts]

The only White-Sandford marriage I could find was this:


First name(s) John
Last name White
Marriage year 1828
Marriage date 23 Mar 1828
Parish Thorncombe
Place Thorncombe
Spouse's first name(s) Frances
Spouse's last name Sandford
Denomination Anglican
County Devon
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Record set Devon Marriages

I'm throwing it into the mix for future reference!

[Olde Crone Holden]

Just a quick observation - death certs are usually the weakest source of information as that information is necessarily given by a third party who may never have known the true facts.

Also - ages on marriage certs can't be relied on either, especially where the female is older than the male. I have a 2x ggm who brazenly knocked 13 years off her age at her second marriage to a much younger man. I often wonder if he was surprised not to have any children with her!

OC

[Elizabeth Herts]

The only White-Sandford marriage I could find was this:


First name(s) John
Last name White
Marriage year 1828
Marriage date 23 Mar 1828
Parish Thorncombe
Place Thorncombe
Spouse's first name(s) Frances
Spouse's last name Sandford
Denomination Anglican
County Devon
Archive South West Heritage Trust
Record set Devon Marriages

I'm throwing it into the mix for future reference!

Here is the family in the 1841 Census, so I think we can eliminate them:

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1841%2f0003402261

[Elizabeth Herts]

This is the Burley family in 1881:

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1881%2f4181080%2f00375&parentid=gbc%2f1881%2f0000026490

They have their neice Alice White with them. She is 13 and born in Kilburn.

[Elizabeth Herts]

This is Alice's birth registration:

WHITE, ALICE WORDSWORTH
GRO Reference: 1867 S Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 38

You will note her mother's maiden name of Wordsworth, so the couple you mentioned above.

[Mary from Italy]

There are a few male Whites with mmn Sandford in the new GRO register, born in the Chard (Somerset) RD in the 1840s.

[ozgirl]

There were a few children baptised to James and Ann White in Portsea St Mary - not necessarily the same couple.

12 Aug 1821, James Charles
8 Dec 1822, William Henry
22 May 1825, John William
5 Nov 1826, Elizabeth Martha Stewart
20 Jul 1828, Mary Ann
29 Nov 1829, Charles Robert
3 Mar 1837 - 3 children baptised on the same day - Robert born 20 Aug 1829, Henry born 6 Nov 1832 and Martha born 11 Nov 1836.

There had been two other James and Ann Whites in Portsea, both of whom married in 1812, so could still be having children in the 1820's. so more research is needed to determine which child belongs to which couple.

[ozgirl]

This would appear to be one of those Portsea families in 1841 - James and Ann (both born out of county) with children John, Mary, Charles, Henry and Martha. James and John are cordwainers.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/89...7_414_416-0525

bottom of right hand page and on the following page.

[Mary from Italy]

I've found that White-Sandford family in Chard in the 1851 census; the mother's name is Frances and there's a 16-year-old daughter called Frances, but I can't see anything to connect them with your people so far.

[Mary from Italy]

Sorry, just realised the Chard family is the same one Elizabeth found.

[webwiz]

It may be that none of us are going to get any further than you already have, considering the work you have done. here are my tips:
Always look for girls called Francis as well as Frances
Go over all your work using the new features on the GRO indexes
You will have illegitimacies in a tree that size, so bear that in mind.
A butler may be working far from home, even if he has a family at home.

Good luck

[ozgirl]

Re-reading what you have written, I am a bit confused - you are looking for a Frances White born ca. 1842, who has a sister Mary Ann born ca. 1828 and a brother Charles born ca. 1830. It would therefore not be possible to have their father as James or John James born in 1820-1825 and marrying in 1842.

On researching Charles White married to Susannah, I found the one who stated he was born in Frimley Hampshire in 1861, as you note in your original post. Although Frimley is in Surrey, it is literally just across the road from Hampshire, which could account for the confusion. Going back to 1841, he could be this Charles: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...=try&h=2391792, son of James living in Fawley Hampshire. Interestingly, although there is no wife, there is a Mary and a Fanny who are both in the approximate age group. Although this Fanny was born in 1838, as OC said she may have shaved a few years off her age, especially as husband John was born in 1846.

Fanny appears to be working as a servant in London in 1851, together with what looks like her sister Mary Ann, who on here says she was born in St Martin-in-the-Fields. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=8978

[TOMARiDEAS]

My apologies for being so late replying to those who responded to my initial post, have been away without my laptop, now back and my replies as follows.
1 from Elizabeth Herts-
The Frances I am looking for was born 1842-1844 and married John Deas in Kirkaldy 1874 not John White in 1828. It is possible a mistake can be made with ages but not the spouse, he is not in doubt as I have all the proof pertaining to him.

2 Links to findmypast do not open as I am not a member.
3 Alice White is the daughter of Charles White and Susannah Wordsworth, Charles is an uncle of Frances White.
4 From Mary from Italy-
From the extensive information that I have there are no connections to Somerset.
5 From ozgirl-
The Family concerned in the 1841 Census are parented by James White and Ann Stephens married in 1819 Chichester, as per your post number 9.
6 From ozgirl post number 13-
Mary Ann White born 1828 & Charles White Born 1830 are not Frances Whites Sister & Brother. They are Aunt & Uncle. Charles White Married Susannah Woedsworth is the correct one.
You say Fanny appears to be working as a servant in London in 1851, together with what looks like her sister Mary Ann, who on here says she was born in St Martin-in-the-Fields.
I have the record of that but her age is down as 13 which makes her born 1838, possible to make employer take her on as older than is.

Thanks for all your input, still searching.

Tom Deas

[margaretmarch]

I think you need to bear in mind that ages were more fluid in those days as people did not generally have birth certificates and were not asked to prove their age.

Have you checked the new GRO index to births which gives mother's maiden names from 1837 onwards? This might help you identify any Frances White births around the years you have and then eliminate them.

Margaret