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SunHoney
18-11-16, 22:11
Hello all! I'm new and I'm very happy to be here. I've enjoyed genealogy from the very early age of 7-8 years old, mostly because of my wonderful great-grandmother. I'm 29 now and finally getting deep into this stuff! I have plenty of questions I could throw at you all lol, but what I'm looking for is any help I can get with a difficult branch of my family.

My great-grandfather was Herald Edward Ashman. He ran away from home for unknown reasons at 12 years old and refused to speak anything about his family for the rest of his life. The only information I have is from documents and that's not much. He was born in 1888 so if only those darn 1890 Census records existed, I might easily have my answer!! So here's everything I have. (Supposedly another family member did hear a rumor that his parents were English - whether from England or simply English ancestry I don't know.)

Herald E. Ashman, b. 1888 in Portland, Oregon. (You can view his Find a Grave here (http://findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=ashman&GSfn=herald&GSmn=edward&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=29084115&df=all&).)
Records I already have:
Census records from 1900, 1920, 1930, 1940.
Death record.
Registers from WWI and WWII.
Marriage records from both marriages.
Some newspaper clippings.
Social security card.
War injury report and war service questionnaire.

As you can see I have a lot. Yet with all that, I still have very little info. Census records list his father's birthplace as Ohio, and his mother's as Kentucky. Herald himself being born in Oregon, there should've been some record of them there. Later he moved to Salt Lake City, Utah, and met my great-grandmother there (though he met her older sister first, and married her, then married her little sister later!) but he was an adult then so I doubt his parents were ever there. There are many Ashmans who lived in Utah, most of them Mormons who came from Kent, England. And he was a Mormon too but I can't find any relation. I've tried to research that family quite a bit but haven't found any Heralds in their line.

The war service questionnaire asks for his parent's names, and for whatever reason his mother's name isn't listed, however his fathers is. The name is Herald Ashman again, not much help there! (No middle name given)

I have exhausted every research idea I can think of. I've looked for Herald (or Harold) Ashmans anywhere else in the United States. There's a couple Harolds, none of whom match. I cannot find a female with the last name Ashman who born in Kentucky ANYwhere. I've tried looking for those with H in the name (he could have gone by a middle name but had H as middle initial, my great-grandmother on maternal side did that) but still no one matches.

Because I have his SSN, I know that I can go purchase a SS-5 and hope that he has one, and that it has the info. But that can take up to 6 months and even then they might not have it. So in the meantime I continue to research.

What I want to know - how is it possible that his parents would be NOWHERE on records?? Ashman is a rare name. Even as of the 2014 census, there were only 3,000 of us in the United States. Less back then. Shouldn't that make it easier to find them, then? What am I missing? What haven't I thought of? It is so frustrating. I just don't understand how I cannot find a trace of any records of an male Ashman born in Ohio along with a female one born in Kentucky, in the right date range, in any records available online.

Would greatly appreciate any help, any ideas on what else I can do. Sorry for long message but wanted to be thorough.

Sylvia C
18-11-16, 22:31
Welcome


I can't help with your US research, but I wondered if you have made allowance for possible mis-spellings or mis-transcriptions in online documents for Ashman??

eg Askman, ---men, etc?

Have you tried using the wild card symbol * to replace one or more letters ......... that usually requires at least a total of 3 letters remaining

eg As*m*n

"m" is often mis-transcribed ............ so As*n

You might have to search through a long list of options when using *

Olde Crone Holden
18-11-16, 23:29
My immediate thought is that Ashman can be a Jewish surname. What were the occupations of father and then the son?

OC

SunHoney
19-11-16, 01:07
Thank you Sylvia. I've been trying to dig through Eschmanns and the whole lot of them! but it's slow work, definitely. Family Search does a lot of that work automatically at least.


My immediate thought is that Ashman can be a Jewish surname. What were the occupations of father and then the son?

OC

Really? I've never heard that! Interesting. The son was Mormon though. Not to say he couldn't have converted but I'm almost positive he was born into it. I wouldn't know the father's occupation, all I have on him is the name and birth place, along with his wife's birth place. As for the son, he was in the military until his injury in France around 1918, so at times he was unemployed. It's also said he already had a previous disability and had claimed exemption from military though it wasn't granted.

From 1930 until retirement he worked as a school janitor. A relative said that wasn't an uncommon occupation for someone with a disability.

I have a couple other descriptions of his work earlier on but I've never been able to understand the handwriting. Perhaps I can share and you might be able to decipher it?

This WWI card looks as though it says he was Foreman for "Phoemax" ?? "Con. Co Terminal" http://imgur.com/Q7XvhFq

This war service question looks as though it's saying something like "Bussing at Phoenix Station"? http://imgur.com/ik0yJcS

PhotoFamily
19-11-16, 04:35
There is one Ashman listed in the Portland 1890 directory: Edward Ashman
http://interactive.ancestry.com/2469/41199_2221301230_7479-00766?pid=1465930531&backurl=//search.ancestry.com//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DMoF2%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%2 6usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUSDirectories% 26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsln%3Dashman%26gsln_x%3D 0%26msrpn__ftp%3Dportland,%2520oregon%26msydy%3D18 88%26msydy_x%3D1%26msydp%3D10%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D dzh%26pcat%3D37%26fh%3D2%26h%3D1465930531%26recoff %3D%26ml_rpos%3D3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=MoF2&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

So, one question to ask yourself: was your ancestor trying to obfuscate his family relationship? Or, less likely, had forgotten his parents' names?

I'm the only advocate on this site for this, but: have you considered genetic genealogy? Particularly with an ancestor this close, you might have good results. If you have anyone who is generationally closer to Herald, they are the best person to test. familytreeDNA.com has its Christmas sale underway US$59 + shipping) and AncestryDNA will start soon.

Off to check familysearch - but I suspect you've already done that?

And, if you're eligible to retrieve it, yes, I'd recommend retrieving the SS5. It'll have his signature if nothing else, but hopefully he filled in his parents' names. I didn't find the application transcription on Ancestry.

PhotoFamily
19-11-16, 04:54
What I want to know - how is it possible that his parents would be NOWHERE on records?? Ashman is a rare name. Even as of the 2014 census, there were only 3,000 of us in the United States. Less back then. Shouldn't that make it easier to find them, then? What am I missing? What haven't I thought of? It is so frustrating. I just don't understand how I cannot find a trace of any records of an male Ashman born in Ohio along with a female one born in Kentucky, in the right date range, in any records available online.

Ancestry has an Edward H Ashman born OH in 1854, living in Nebraska:
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=MoF7&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=herald&gsfn_x=0&gsln=ashman&gsln_x=0&MSAV=1&msrdy=1880&msrpn__ftp=portland,%20oregon&cp=0&catbucket=rst&uidh=dzh&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=37532&recoff=6%207&db=NEstatecensus&indiv=1&ml_rpos=11

No, I don't think he's your man. I think he's the same man that is ministering in AZ in the 1900. He and his wife have been married for 10 yrs and they've only had one child, who is living with them.

On second thought: it might be the right father. If this were a second marriage (i.e., he lost is first wife, and remarried in 1890), it's his second wife who is answering the question.

The son in the census is born in CO, another indication that the family is moving around.

PhotoFamily
19-11-16, 05:00
Wait - that 1900 census is ASHMUN not Ashman!

PhotoFamily
19-11-16, 05:18
I haven't seen Utah's marriage records - they don't collect parents' names of the bride & groom? I only found the index i on Ancestry, so I wonder if they the names were on the marriage certs but not the index

Have you contacted your local Family History Center and asked what records the Church may have collected when he became a member?

PhotoFamily
19-11-16, 06:20
And did you pull the marriage licenses? Including the one that was issued in Idaho? Is Sarah Fowler one of the wives you knew about?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-897B-CR7K?i=88&wc=M6TX-WPF%3A357492201&cc=2078505

SunHoney
19-11-16, 08:02
Thanks for helping me look into all this, PhotoFamily.

I'm unable to view the first two links unfortunately, as they require a paid Ancestry membership. But I'd very much like to know more about that Portland Edward Ashman in 1890! My great-grandfather's middle name was Edward, he very likely could have had the same name as his father. It's been suggested he was hiding the truth about his parents, though it does seem risky as a military man that he'd be willing to lie on paper to the government. Still, it's possible. And as for Ashmun vs Ashman, these mistakes are often made so it doesn't mean it's not right. One census enumerator once wrote my great-grandfather's name as Harland rather than Herald! You can even see on the paper where he sort of scribbled some out and then seemed to give up trying to spell it, haha.

As for Sarah Fowler, that's my great-grandmother. His first wife was Jennie Fowler. She was her older sister. Weird stuff.

I did not know I could talk to the Family History Center. Is that free?

For DNA, it's something I want to do, and in fact I could have my grandfather take the test even, as he would be the grandson of this mysterious Ashman, so if there's anyone else out there, maybe we'd have better chances? And he's in his 80s so it'd be nice to at least try while he's healthy and kicking.

SunHoney
19-11-16, 08:06
Ancestry has an Edward H Ashman born OH in 1854, living in Nebraska:
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=MoF7&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=herald&gsfn_x=0&gsln=ashman&gsln_x=0&MSAV=1&msrdy=1880&msrpn__ftp=portland,%20oregon&cp=0&catbucket=rst&uidh=dzh&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=37532&recoff=6%207&db=NEstatecensus&indiv=1&ml_rpos=11

No, I don't think he's your man. I think he's the same man that is ministering in AZ in the 1900. He and his wife have been married for 10 yrs and they've only had one child, who is living with them.

On second thought: it might be the right father. If this were a second marriage (i.e., he lost is first wife, and remarried in 1890), it's his second wife who is answering the question.

The son in the census is born in CO, another indication that the family is moving around.

Oh, and while I can't view this image, I have tried coming up with theories as to why a 12 year old boy would be compelled to run away, so far from home...one thought is a possible abusive home. Another - women did die in childbirth more often back then. I once found an Ashman grave around the time he ran away (some random grave, cant remember now) of a baby who died and it got me thinking...maybe his mother died, his father remarried, and in a hasty decision a 12 year old ran off. But the fact that he never spoke of his family, not once, does make me think that abuse could have been likely

Darksecretz
19-11-16, 08:39
For some reason I am not seeing the hyperlinks, [well I am but they aren't linking anywhere for me]

have you tried Asman? or Osman?

lovely to see more US people coming on board to our forum! Welcome SunHoney! :smilee:

~~~to Sarah.

Olde Crone Holden
19-11-16, 10:03
Of no use to your quest but may help you understand the situation.

A 12 year old then was not a child. In the UK most 12 year olds would have been working so running away from home may just have been a clash of family personalities and nothing to do with abuse.

OC

PhotoFamily
19-11-16, 16:51
Thanks for helping me look into all this, PhotoFamily.

I'm unable to view the first two links unfortunately, as they require a paid Ancestry membership. But I'd very much like to know more about that Portland Edward Ashman in 1890!
Name: Edward Ashman
Residence Year: 1890
Street address: 3d Corner
Residence Place: Portland, Oregon, USA
Occupation: Carpenter
Publication Title: Portland, Oregon City Directory, 1890


One census enumerator once wrote my great-grandfather's name as Harland rather than Herald!
US enumerators were not required to ask the resident how to spell their names. Also, the education level of the enumerator varied widely.


As for Sarah Fowler, that's my great-grandmother. His first wife was Jennie Fowler. She was her older sister. Weird stuff.
But not that unusual. I have several instances of a widowed spouse marrying the sister.

** Do you have the actual marriage certificates, and do you have the marriage licenses?? ** Not all information is transcribed from records. Again, if you don't have copies of the actual records, you can't be sure what's there. "Leave no stone unturned" - but genealogists often turn over stones and still find nothing.


I did not know I could talk to the Family History Center. Is that free?.
Yes, Family History Library (in Salt Lake) and Family History Centers are free and open to the public regardless of faith. FHCs are small, and usually run by local volunteers - so they usually have fairly limited hours and resources.
Many of the films in FamilySearch's catalog can be requested to loan to your local FHC for a small fee.

I was looking thru FamilySearch's wiki last night. There appears to be information available about early Church members, but it is restricted - probably to faithful members of the Church. Nonetheless, you could inquire at the FHC as to whether they can look up info. I don't even know what kind of info would be in those records


For DNA, it's something I want to do, and in fact I could have my grandfather take the test even, as he would be the grandson of this mysterious Ashman, so if there's anyone else out there, maybe we'd have better chances? And he's in his 80s so it'd be nice to at least try while he's healthy and kicking.
Yes, there's no way to know if you'll match someone until you test - and even if there isn't anyone to match now, someone may test in the future. My mother just had two strong matches show up in the last few months - they're her 2C1Rs.

Forgot to say it earlier -
Welcome to FTF!
sarah

PS - forgot to add: FHCs, and perhaps your public library, have access to the institutional version of Ancestry for free

Katarzyna
19-11-16, 19:03
Re post #4 There is a bit about the Phoenix Con Co here (https://familysearch.org/photos/artifacts/10481706).
Not helping with finding anyone but filling in a bit about where he worked.:)

Edit: archives for the Company here (http://archiveswest.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv10003)

Katarzyna
19-11-16, 19:18
Sorry Archives above incorrect meant to post this link. (https://www.loc.gov/collections/historic-american-buildings-landscapes-and-engineering-records/?fa=subject%3Ahydroelectric+power+plants%7Ccontrib utor%3Aphoenix+construction+company)

Phoenix Con Co Was Phoenix Construction Company

SunHoney
19-11-16, 19:35
So many responses and ideas that I hardly know where to begin! Which is a good thing. I need all ideas I can get. This is a huge family mystery, and I would be so happy to figure it out - especially for my grandfather.


For some reason I am not seeing the hyperlinks, [well I am but they aren't linking anywhere for me]

have you tried Asman? or Osman?

lovely to see more US people coming on board to our forum! Welcome SunHoney! :smilee:

~~~to Sarah.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm trying every variation I can think of, from Oshkin to Askam to Ashkin and everything in between! :P



In the UK most 12 year olds would have been working so running away from home may just have been a clash of family personalities and nothing to do with abuse.

Oh very interesting! This was in the United States though, although I don't know if that would make a difference. I have him in the 1900 census living about 4 1/2 hrs from his birthplace with a family, listed as a "boarder" and there are two "hired men" living there too. I thought it was odd for a kid to be a boarder. I wonder if he was actually working for them but naturally wouldn't list on the census "hired child" lol. I don't know.



But not that unusual. I have several instances of a widowed spouse marrying the sister.

** Do you have the actual marriage certificates, and do you have the marriage licenses?? ** Not all information is transcribed from records. Again, if you don't have copies of the actual records, you can't be sure what's there. "Leave no stone unturned" - but genealogists often turn over stones and still find nothing.

I do not have both for both marriages I don't think. I do have a doc that's filled out (not sure if someone here directed me to it) but naturally the part with his parents is left blank. :rolleyes: I'll ask my grandpa, who has a big trunk of documents and photos (someday I'm going back to my hometown to rifle through it all) he might have those, but if they had his parents names I think he'd have known. But who knows what tidbit of info might be on them. I'll ask and my aunt might be able to send a snapshot.

He wasn't widowed actually, they divorced at some point and he lived as a lodger somewhere for a year or two then married my great-grandmother. He was 31, she was 16. All around weird situation to me.

I'll look more into the FHC and also what my local library might have with Ancestry. I'm quite fortunate that a couple sides of my family were LDS, as they take such care with genealogy records and such.

Olde Crone Holden
19-11-16, 20:14
In the UK I have several children/very young adults described as boarders and it generally means that an adult, or a charitable body was paying for their board and keep. A foster child in other words. I don't know what age compulsory education finished in the USA in 1900. It does look like he was living way from his parents, under some kind of adult supervision.

(Incidentally, two of my child boarders turned out to be the grandchildren of the head of the household!)

OC

SunHoney
19-11-16, 20:50
In the UK I have several children/very young adults described as boarders and it generally means that an adult, or a charitable body was paying for their board and keep. A foster child in other words. I don't know what age compulsory education finished in the USA in 1900. It does look like he was living way from his parents, under some kind of adult supervision.

(Incidentally, two of my child boarders turned out to be the grandchildren of the head of the household!)

OC

I forgot something, nevermind what I said about a possible child hired help, the census does say he's attending school, and later records say he finished school. So whoever this family was, they seem to have taken good care of him. I'd love any thoughts about his situation. So very helpful. Because I have to wonder what happened to him...did he run away, become found by someone, then placed in foster care? When he told his own children that he ran away, could he possibly have meant that he refused to stay at home and so was sent to live with family? Perhaps these had been his neighbors at some point. I've been researching them but haven't found a link quite yet.

SunHoney
19-11-16, 20:53
Also, this is the census. He's near the bottom, living with the Hindmans. Name spelled Harland E.

http://imgur.com/z1HlKVz

Olde Crone Holden
19-11-16, 22:45
I think it's dangerous to draw conclusions! These foster parents may have been wonderful people or they may just have been in it for the money and the free labour..or any scenario in between the two extremes. However I do think that if they were wonderful people he would have talked about them and kept in touch with them, which he evidently didn't.

He may have "finished his education" but if that information was self reported it may not be true!

Maybe it was these people he ran away from, aged 12and not his parents.

OC

SunHoney
19-11-16, 23:11
I think it's dangerous to draw conclusions! These foster parents may have been wonderful people or they may just have been in it for the money and the free labour..or any scenario in between the two extremes. However I do think that if they were wonderful people he would have talked about them and kept in touch with them, which he evidently didn't.

He may have "finished his education" but if that information was self reported it may not be true!

Maybe it was these people he ran away from, aged 12and not his parents.

OC

Very true, not drawing conclusions though, just throwing hypothesis and thoughts out there - spitballing, as the saying goes! :P He did say specifically in later years, though, that it was his real parents that he ran away from. I definitely want to find out more about this family he stayed with - perhaps he didn't know them but was placed with them as a foster child, and maybe I can find out if they ever fostered other children. You never know what an unexpected road you might be led down.

Speaking of...there probably are no records I could find about him, official papers regarding him being a foster child? I am definitely going to buy his SS-5 later this month, and hope that they have it, and even if it takes six months, my family has been looking for these answers for years. A few months won't hurt.

Olde Crone Holden
19-11-16, 23:34
I think your best bet is to follow photo family,s advice and pursue the LDS angle. If he was a lifelong Mormon then they are very likely to have information on him and it is very unlikely that he would lie in any way to them. It could even be that the church organised his fostering.

My guess is that he was probably illegitimate. People were so ashamed back then, they would go to any lengths to conceal the fact. Sorry I can't be more helpful but I am not familiar with USA research.

OC

SunHoney
20-11-16, 00:17
Olde Crone, you've been very helpful. Just hearing other people's thoughts is helpful. I hadn't considered the possibility he was illegitimate! That opens up plenty of hypothesis. Who knows, he could even have been born from an adulterous affair or something sundry like that.

I'm definitely going to look into the LDS angle and I look forward to seeing what might come of it.

Sylvia C
20-11-16, 00:34
Thank you Sylvia. I've been trying to dig through Eschmanns and the whole lot of them! but it's slow work, definitely. Family Search does a lot of that work automatically at least.



Really? I've never heard that! Interesting. The son was Mormon though. Not to say he couldn't have converted but I'm almost positive he was born into it. I wouldn't know the father's occupation, all I have on him is the name and birth place, along with his wife's birth place. As for the son, he was in the military until his injury in France around 1918, so at times he was unemployed. It's also said he already had a previous disability and had claimed exemption from military though it wasn't granted.

From 1930 until retirement he worked as a school janitor. A relative said that wasn't an uncommon occupation for someone with a disability.

I have a couple other descriptions of his work earlier on but I've never been able to understand the handwriting. Perhaps I can share and you might be able to decipher it?

This WWI card looks as though it says he was Foreman for "Phoemax" ?? "Con. Co Terminal" http://imgur.com/Q7XvhFq

This war service question looks as though it's saying something like "Bussing at Phoenix Station"? http://imgur.com/ik0yJcS


???? possibly

Bussing (clearing and wiping) tables in the diner/cafe or whatever at Phoenix Bus or Train Station.

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 00:50
My g'grandfather's SS5 was a genealogist's prize. He had filled it out himself, with his parents' names and his POB (unfortunately, only county and country, no town). And he had signed it - it's the only item I have in his writing. He must have been one of the oldest/earliest applicants for an SSN - he was born in 1863.

I think every FTF member would point out that the information on any document is only as good as the informant knew at the time of the event, and was willing to report honestly. So, for instance, if the informant on the DC only knew what Herald had told him, but Herald was not giving out the correct information - then the DC info would be incorrect. And so on. Which means that your best source is the person to whom the information relates, hopefully while their brain is still fully functional (e.g., I have a many g'grandfather who misnames his mother and instead names his aunt as his mother).

Not sure how formal a fostering system there was at the turn of the century.

SunHoney
20-11-16, 01:03
My g'grandfather's SS5 was a genealogist's prize. He had filled it out himself, with his parents' names and his POB (unfortunately, only county and country, no town). And he had signed it - it's the only item I have in his writing. He must have been one of the oldest/earliest applicants for an SSN - he was born in 1863.

I think every FTF member would point out that the information on any document is only as good as the informant knew at the time of the event, and was willing to report honestly. So, for instance, if the informant on the DC only knew what Herald had told him, but Herald was not giving out the correct information - then the DC info would be incorrect. And so on. Which means that your best source is the person to whom the information relates, hopefully while their brain is still fully functional (e.g., I have a many g'grandfather who misnames his mother and instead names his aunt as his mother).

Not sure how formal a fostering system there was at the turn of the century.

It's funny, his closest relatives still alive are my grandfather and my great-uncle, his brother. And I've discovered a couple things I didn't know. Funny how that works out, for example one of my grandmothers always claimed she was 18 when she had her first child - but once I found my aunt's birth cert., along with my grandma's, accompanied by the marriage certificate...she was in fact 15 when she was pregnant, and barely 16 when she was married. Which of course my grandfather knew (he's still alive, she's passed away) but he kept up the charade that she was 18 - for obvious reasons. So that quite surprised everyone!

As for handwriting, I do have plenty in my g'grandfather's writing. My grandpa has a massive trunk filled to the brim with family documents and photos. So this includes the most random things, like his car registration, and insurance, and things of that nature. He also has photos dating way, way back (on the other side of the family), some photos on tin and metal they are so old! I have to get back home at some point and scan it all

SunHoney
20-11-16, 01:34
New info, would love to know what you all think:

I *just* received this from a very kind friend on a Facebook group. She discovered this 1905 Iowa State Census with a Herald E. Ashman. Doesn't seem likely there'd be a ton of Herald E. Ashmans running around - unusual spelling of Harold, and uncommon last name, not to mention same middle initial.

Let's say this is him, for argument's sake. He would have been 17 yrs old, living in Iowa for some reason, either living with his parents again OR could this be family - an uncle, aunt? What do you all think of this? I haven't found him on a 1910 census yet, just 1900 then skips to 1920. So I wonder what additional clue that census would give.

I'll transcribe the info, the image is hard to read. No ages or anything helpful like that, of course.

Name: Herald E Ashman
Residence Date: 1905
Residence Place: Scott, Mahaska, Iowa, USA

Household Members:

Tha's E Ashman
Mary J Ashman
Herald E Ashman
John W Ashman
Mary J Ashman

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 01:36
He wasn't widowed actually, they divorced at some point and he lived as a lodger somewhere for a year or two then married my great-grandmother. He was 31, she was 16. All around weird situation to me.

And do you have the divorce transcript - the actual court proceedings, not just the declarative document? They probably still exist, barring courthouse burnings, etc.

Are you the person with the public tree with him on Ancestry?

Link to locating an FHC
https://familysearch.org/locations/centerlocator?cid=hp2-1047

Not sure if they're still doing it, but they used to offer online expert help.

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 01:46
1910, laborer on the railroad. Note that his age is very difficult to read, and that he says his mother was born in Iowa. However, I mistrust records for a large group of unrelated people. Sometimes someone else is answering and gets it wrong. I think that enumerators also transcribed information for the final forms.

http://interactive.ancestry.com/7884/4454981_00704?pid=31302839&backurl=//search.ancestry.com//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DmrA1%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%2 6usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3Dherald%2 520edward%26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3Dashman%26gsln_x%3D 0%26MSAV%3D1%26msbdy%3D1888%26msbpn__ftp%3DPortlan d,%2520Multnomah,%2520Oregon,%2520USA%26msbpn%3D62 720%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C1652393%257C0%257C2%257C0%257C40%257C0% 257C2125%257C62720%257C0%257C0%257C%26cp%3D12%26ca tbucket%3Drst%26uidh%3Ddzh%26cpxt%3D1%26pcat%3DCEN _1910%26h%3D31302839%26db%3D1910USCenIndex%26indiv %3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mrA1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

Edward Ashman
[Edward Ashnan]
Age in 1910: 27
[21]
Birth Year: abt 1883
[abt 1889]
Birthplace: Oregon
Home in 1910: Cheyenne Ward 1, Laramie, Wyoming
Street: In Bank Cars Union Pacific RR Yards Cheyenne Step
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Lodger
Marital Status: Single
Father's Birthplace: Ohio
Mother's Birthplace: Iowa
Native Tongue: English
Occupation: Laborer
Industry: Railroad

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 01:56
OK, I'm liking this a lot. He stayed with Thomas E Ashman in the 1905. Here's Thomas in the 1910
Name: Thomas D Ashman
[Thomas G Ashman]
Age in 1910: 34
Birth Year: abt 1876
Birthplace: Iowa
Home in 1910: Garfield, Mahaska, Iowa
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Head
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Mary J Ashman
Father's Birthplace: Ohio
Mother's Birthplace: Wales
Native Tongue: English
Occupation: Coal Mining
Industry: Coal Mine

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=mrA16&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=1910USCenIndex&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsln=ashman&gsln_x=0&msrpn__ftp=Iowa,%20USA&msrpn=18&msrpn_PInfo=5-%7C0%7C1652393%7C0%7C2%7C0%7C18%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C 0%7C&MSAV=1&uidh=dzh&pcat=CEN_1910&fh=8&h=7476771&recoff=&ml_rpos=9

Lookie, Dad was born in Ohio. Mom in Wales. Lookie again - Mary Ashman in Iowa in 1910, born in Wales:
Name: Mary Ashman
Age in 1910: 60
Birth Year: abt 1850
Birthplace: Wales
Home in 1910: Colfax Ward 3, Jasper, Iowa
Street: Spring Street
Race: White
Immigration Year: 1865
[1862]
Relation to Head of House: Head
Marital Status: Widowed
Father's Birthplace: Wales
Mother's Birthplace: Wales
Native Tongue: English
Occupation: Laundress

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=mrA17&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=1910USCenIndex&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsln=ashman&gsln_x=0&msrpn__ftp=Iowa,%20USA&msrpn=18&msrpn_PInfo=5-%7C0%7C1652393%7C0%7C2%7C0%7C18%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C 0%7C&MSAV=1&uidh=dzh&pcat=CEN_1910&fh=2&h=7394742&recoff=&ml_rpos=3

Don't get too excited yet. Still checking, but perhaps Thomas was Herald's uncle?

Katarzyna
20-11-16, 02:00
???? possibly

Bussing (clearing and wiping) tables in the diner/cafe or whatever at Phoenix Bus or Train Station.

Americanisms: Bossing definition, a person who employs or superintends workers; manager.

Phoenix Con Co was Phoenix Construction Company

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 02:01
Still liking it. Mary is married in the 1880, living with spouse William. Some of their kids were born in Ohio
http://interactive.ancestry.com/6742/4240926-00132?pid=32340791&backurl=//search.ancestry.com//cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3D1880usfedcen%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D3234 0791&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

Name: Wm. Ashman
Age: 36
Birth Year: abt 1844
Birthplace: Wales
Home in 1880: Machacinoe Settlement, Mahaska, Iowa
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Mary Ashman
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Birthplace: Wales

It might be a case of proving the negative. Their eldest child William still living with them is age 9 in the 1880 census. That would mean he'd need to be a father by age 17 - not impossible, but...
One way to prove it would be to build out a tree for the family.

And of course, William Ashman might be the uncle

here's the census record on FS,
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYBM-91V7?cc=1417683

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 02:08
William Sr in the 1900 census.
http://interactive.ancestry.com/7602/004120109_00290?pid=15863121&backurl=//search.ancestry.com//cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3D1900usfedcen%26h%3D158631 21%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26usePUBJs%3D true%26rhSource%3D6742&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

or
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6QWW-D2M?mode=g&i=36&cc=1325221

Mary says she's mother of 9, 8 living, and they've been married 30 years. So, William Jr is most likely her eldest child. Haven't tried to trace him, but I think you've got a good start on a project.

William's brother Thomas is living with them, born PA.

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 02:17
Hmm, Thomas Ashman in the 1900, living Mahaska Iowa (same Thomas, right?) also has a son Harold
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6QWW-ZMJ?mode=g&i=19&cc=1325221
but born in 1898

OK, that 1910 record for Harold E Ashman is the wrong one! He too is Thomas's son.

I still like this family, tho, as a possible connection to your HEA

SunHoney
20-11-16, 02:22
What a good thought to create a separate small tree for this family. Could really help sketch them out and might lead to finding family connections that lead to my family. Back then there was something like 1,800 Ashman's in the entire country. Then add the same initials...it's definitely not impossible there's a connection somehow

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 02:26
Just in case it was lost in the flurry - is the tree on ancestry yours, or one you already know about?

Hmm, yes, and recruiting someone from that family to DNA test if you can't find paper records to connect your families...

SunHoney
20-11-16, 03:15
Just in case it was lost in the flurry - is the tree on ancestry yours, or one you already know about?

Hmm, yes, and recruiting someone from that family to DNA test if you can't find paper records to connect your families...

oh i'm not sure if mines public! it should have the username missuswells if it's me

Olde Crone Holden
20-11-16, 10:04
Wow, that all looks very promising! Well found, PF.

OC

SunHoney
20-11-16, 17:06
I looked for a FHC and there's one less than 10 from me. i am SO excited to go there!!

PhotoFamily
20-11-16, 17:24
I looked for a FHC and there's one less than 10 from me. i am SO excited to go there!!

Sometimes they require appointments - some of them are small, with limited resources. While they'll still have free computer access to various genealogy databases, their on-hand resources are usually limited to local references. If there are films you want to see, you'll need to order/request them.
It looked to me like the FamilySearch catalog has the films for marriage licenses and certificates covering Herald's two marriages. You could request those films (if they'll loan them - I didn't check that on the catalog. Some are restricted to FHL only).
Good luck!

SunHoney
21-11-16, 00:35
This is mine: https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Tucson_Arizona_Family_History_Center

Looks like it's a good one. Thousands of books, computer programs, websites that usually require a fee, microfilm, personal consulting at no cost...my plan is to go in with as much info as I already have, get their advice, and start diving in headfirst. I'm sure with subsequent visits I'll get a good feel for it. I'm going week after next!

PhotoFamily
21-11-16, 15:16
And one of the ones in Phoenix area may be even bigger - your center will probably know.

Olde Crone Holden
21-11-16, 17:12
I have always had the most marvellous help from my local family history centre and I could not have done most of my research without them, pre internet days.

OC

SunHoney
21-12-16, 22:58
To everyone who helped me: thank you so much! I can finally close this thread because today the mystery is SOLVED!

I was very surprised to receive my grandfather's SS-5 so soon. I was literally jumping up and down in my living room with it!! He filled it out himself and included the full names of both his parents! If anyone is curious, they are Charles Edward Ashman and Jennie Smith. I've come across Charles E. Ashman in my research before so now I'll be focusing on whether it's the right one. I think it is, as many details fit.

I still don't know for sure if I've got the right mother for him, but I found a Jennie Smith on Find a Grave who died 1893 in Portland, Oregon. My grandpa would've been 5 yrs old at the time. This Charles I'm considering was married 3 times. I'm wondering if after Herald's mother died (IF this is her, which I think very likely it is) his dad remarried, perhaps he just became troubled and left home young.

This has made my whole day - my whole week! I just solved a nearly 100 year old mystery. At 85 years old, I'm finally able to have the honor of revealing to my 85 year old grandfather who his grandparents were. My dad had hired a pro genealogist who couldn't break down this brick wall. It's only through the help of others, like those in this forum, that I managed to figure this out. thank you all so much!!

PhotoFamily
21-12-16, 23:16
Congratulations! My g'grandfather's SS5 broke down a brick wall, too - and gave me a bit of his handwriting.