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  • Help tracking down mysterious Ashman

    Hello all! I'm new and I'm very happy to be here. I've enjoyed genealogy from the very early age of 7-8 years old, mostly because of my wonderful great-grandmother. I'm 29 now and finally getting deep into this stuff! I have plenty of questions I could throw at you all lol, but what I'm looking for is any help I can get with a difficult branch of my family.

    My great-grandfather was Herald Edward Ashman. He ran away from home for unknown reasons at 12 years old and refused to speak anything about his family for the rest of his life. The only information I have is from documents and that's not much. He was born in 1888 so if only those darn 1890 Census records existed, I might easily have my answer!! So here's everything I have. (Supposedly another family member did hear a rumor that his parents were English - whether from England or simply English ancestry I don't know.)

    Herald E. Ashman, b. 1888 in Portland, Oregon. (You can view his Find a Grave here.)
    Records I already have:
    Census records from 1900, 1920, 1930, 1940.
    Death record.
    Registers from WWI and WWII.
    Marriage records from both marriages.
    Some newspaper clippings.
    Social security card.
    War injury report and war service questionnaire.

    As you can see I have a lot. Yet with all that, I still have very little info. Census records list his father's birthplace as Ohio, and his mother's as Kentucky. Herald himself being born in Oregon, there should've been some record of them there. Later he moved to Salt Lake City, Utah, and met my great-grandmother there (though he met her older sister first, and married her, then married her little sister later!) but he was an adult then so I doubt his parents were ever there. There are many Ashmans who lived in Utah, most of them Mormons who came from Kent, England. And he was a Mormon too but I can't find any relation. I've tried to research that family quite a bit but haven't found any Heralds in their line.

    The war service questionnaire asks for his parent's names, and for whatever reason his mother's name isn't listed, however his fathers is. The name is Herald Ashman again, not much help there! (No middle name given)

    I have exhausted every research idea I can think of. I've looked for Herald (or Harold) Ashmans anywhere else in the United States. There's a couple Harolds, none of whom match. I cannot find a female with the last name Ashman who born in Kentucky ANYwhere. I've tried looking for those with H in the name (he could have gone by a middle name but had H as middle initial, my great-grandmother on maternal side did that) but still no one matches.

    Because I have his SSN, I know that I can go purchase a SS-5 and hope that he has one, and that it has the info. But that can take up to 6 months and even then they might not have it. So in the meantime I continue to research.

    What I want to know - how is it possible that his parents would be NOWHERE on records?? Ashman is a rare name. Even as of the 2014 census, there were only 3,000 of us in the United States. Less back then. Shouldn't that make it easier to find them, then? What am I missing? What haven't I thought of? It is so frustrating. I just don't understand how I cannot find a trace of any records of an male Ashman born in Ohio along with a female one born in Kentucky, in the right date range, in any records available online.

    Would greatly appreciate any help, any ideas on what else I can do. Sorry for long message but wanted to be thorough.
    Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

  • #2
    Welcome


    I can't help with your US research, but I wondered if you have made allowance for possible mis-spellings or mis-transcriptions in online documents for Ashman??

    eg Askman, ---men, etc?

    Have you tried using the wild card symbol * to replace one or more letters ......... that usually requires at least a total of 3 letters remaining

    eg As*m*n

    "m" is often mis-transcribed ............ so As*n

    You might have to search through a long list of options when using *
    My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

    Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

    Comment


    • #3
      My immediate thought is that Ashman can be a Jewish surname. What were the occupations of father and then the son?

      OC

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you Sylvia. I've been trying to dig through Eschmanns and the whole lot of them! but it's slow work, definitely. Family Search does a lot of that work automatically at least.

        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
        My immediate thought is that Ashman can be a Jewish surname. What were the occupations of father and then the son?

        OC
        Really? I've never heard that! Interesting. The son was Mormon though. Not to say he couldn't have converted but I'm almost positive he was born into it. I wouldn't know the father's occupation, all I have on him is the name and birth place, along with his wife's birth place. As for the son, he was in the military until his injury in France around 1918, so at times he was unemployed. It's also said he already had a previous disability and had claimed exemption from military though it wasn't granted.

        From 1930 until retirement he worked as a school janitor. A relative said that wasn't an uncommon occupation for someone with a disability.

        I have a couple other descriptions of his work earlier on but I've never been able to understand the handwriting. Perhaps I can share and you might be able to decipher it?

        This WWI card looks as though it says he was Foreman for "Phoemax" ?? "Con. Co Terminal" http://imgur.com/Q7XvhFq

        This war service question looks as though it's saying something like "Bussing at Phoenix Station"? http://imgur.com/ik0yJcS
        Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

        Comment


        • #5
          There is one Ashman listed in the Portland 1890 directory: Edward Ashman


          So, one question to ask yourself: was your ancestor trying to obfuscate his family relationship? Or, less likely, had forgotten his parents' names?

          I'm the only advocate on this site for this, but: have you considered genetic genealogy? Particularly with an ancestor this close, you might have good results. If you have anyone who is generationally closer to Herald, they are the best person to test. familytreeDNA.com has its Christmas sale underway US$59 + shipping) and AncestryDNA will start soon.

          Off to check familysearch - but I suspect you've already done that?

          And, if you're eligible to retrieve it, yes, I'd recommend retrieving the SS5. It'll have his signature if nothing else, but hopefully he filled in his parents' names. I didn't find the application transcription on Ancestry.
          Last edited by PhotoFamily; 19-11-16, 03:38.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SunHoney View Post

            What I want to know - how is it possible that his parents would be NOWHERE on records?? Ashman is a rare name. Even as of the 2014 census, there were only 3,000 of us in the United States. Less back then. Shouldn't that make it easier to find them, then? What am I missing? What haven't I thought of? It is so frustrating. I just don't understand how I cannot find a trace of any records of an male Ashman born in Ohio along with a female one born in Kentucky, in the right date range, in any records available online.
            Ancestry has an Edward H Ashman born OH in 1854, living in Nebraska:


            No, I don't think he's your man. I think he's the same man that is ministering in AZ in the 1900. He and his wife have been married for 10 yrs and they've only had one child, who is living with them.

            On second thought: it might be the right father. If this were a second marriage (i.e., he lost is first wife, and remarried in 1890), it's his second wife who is answering the question.

            The son in the census is born in CO, another indication that the family is moving around.
            Last edited by PhotoFamily; 19-11-16, 03:56.

            Comment


            • #7
              Wait - that 1900 census is ASHMUN not Ashman!

              Comment


              • #8
                I haven't seen Utah's marriage records - they don't collect parents' names of the bride & groom? I only found the index i on Ancestry, so I wonder if they the names were on the marriage certs but not the index

                Have you contacted your local Family History Center and asked what records the Church may have collected when he became a member?
                Last edited by PhotoFamily; 19-11-16, 04:20.

                Comment


                • #9
                  And did you pull the marriage licenses? Including the one that was issued in Idaho? Is Sarah Fowler one of the wives you knew about?
                  Last edited by PhotoFamily; 19-11-16, 05:22.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for helping me look into all this, PhotoFamily.

                    I'm unable to view the first two links unfortunately, as they require a paid Ancestry membership. But I'd very much like to know more about that Portland Edward Ashman in 1890! My great-grandfather's middle name was Edward, he very likely could have had the same name as his father. It's been suggested he was hiding the truth about his parents, though it does seem risky as a military man that he'd be willing to lie on paper to the government. Still, it's possible. And as for Ashmun vs Ashman, these mistakes are often made so it doesn't mean it's not right. One census enumerator once wrote my great-grandfather's name as Harland rather than Herald! You can even see on the paper where he sort of scribbled some out and then seemed to give up trying to spell it, haha.

                    As for Sarah Fowler, that's my great-grandmother. His first wife was Jennie Fowler. She was her older sister. Weird stuff.

                    I did not know I could talk to the Family History Center. Is that free?

                    For DNA, it's something I want to do, and in fact I could have my grandfather take the test even, as he would be the grandson of this mysterious Ashman, so if there's anyone else out there, maybe we'd have better chances? And he's in his 80s so it'd be nice to at least try while he's healthy and kicking.
                    Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                      Ancestry has an Edward H Ashman born OH in 1854, living in Nebraska:


                      No, I don't think he's your man. I think he's the same man that is ministering in AZ in the 1900. He and his wife have been married for 10 yrs and they've only had one child, who is living with them.

                      On second thought: it might be the right father. If this were a second marriage (i.e., he lost is first wife, and remarried in 1890), it's his second wife who is answering the question.

                      The son in the census is born in CO, another indication that the family is moving around.
                      Oh, and while I can't view this image, I have tried coming up with theories as to why a 12 year old boy would be compelled to run away, so far from home...one thought is a possible abusive home. Another - women did die in childbirth more often back then. I once found an Ashman grave around the time he ran away (some random grave, cant remember now) of a baby who died and it got me thinking...maybe his mother died, his father remarried, and in a hasty decision a 12 year old ran off. But the fact that he never spoke of his family, not once, does make me think that abuse could have been likely
                      Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For some reason I am not seeing the hyperlinks, [well I am but they aren't linking anywhere for me]

                        have you tried Asman? or Osman?

                        lovely to see more US people coming on board to our forum! Welcome SunHoney! :smilee:

                        ~~~to Sarah.
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Of no use to your quest but may help you understand the situation.

                          A 12 year old then was not a child. In the UK most 12 year olds would have been working so running away from home may just have been a clash of family personalities and nothing to do with abuse.

                          OC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SunHoney View Post
                            Thanks for helping me look into all this, PhotoFamily.

                            I'm unable to view the first two links unfortunately, as they require a paid Ancestry membership. But I'd very much like to know more about that Portland Edward Ashman in 1890!
                            Name: Edward Ashman
                            Residence Year: 1890
                            Street address: 3d Corner
                            Residence Place: Portland, Oregon, USA
                            Occupation: Carpenter
                            Publication Title: Portland, Oregon City Directory, 1890

                            Originally posted by SunHoney View Post
                            One census enumerator once wrote my great-grandfather's name as Harland rather than Herald!
                            US enumerators were not required to ask the resident how to spell their names. Also, the education level of the enumerator varied widely.

                            Originally posted by SunHoney View Post
                            As for Sarah Fowler, that's my great-grandmother. His first wife was Jennie Fowler. She was her older sister. Weird stuff.
                            But not that unusual. I have several instances of a widowed spouse marrying the sister.

                            ** Do you have the actual marriage certificates, and do you have the marriage licenses?? **
                            Not all information is transcribed from records. Again, if you don't have copies of the actual records, you can't be sure what's there. "Leave no stone unturned" - but genealogists often turn over stones and still find nothing.

                            Originally posted by SunHoney View Post
                            I did not know I could talk to the Family History Center. Is that free?.
                            Yes, Family History Library (in Salt Lake) and Family History Centers are free and open to the public regardless of faith. FHCs are small, and usually run by local volunteers - so they usually have fairly limited hours and resources.
                            Many of the films in FamilySearch's catalog can be requested to loan to your local FHC for a small fee.

                            I was looking thru FamilySearch's wiki last night. There appears to be information available about early Church members, but it is restricted - probably to faithful members of the Church. Nonetheless, you could inquire at the FHC as to whether they can look up info. I don't even know what kind of info would be in those records

                            Originally posted by SunHoney View Post
                            For DNA, it's something I want to do, and in fact I could have my grandfather take the test even, as he would be the grandson of this mysterious Ashman, so if there's anyone else out there, maybe we'd have better chances? And he's in his 80s so it'd be nice to at least try while he's healthy and kicking.
                            Yes, there's no way to know if you'll match someone until you test - and even if there isn't anyone to match now, someone may test in the future. My mother just had two strong matches show up in the last few months - they're her 2C1Rs.

                            Forgot to say it earlier -
                            Welcome to FTF!
                            sarah

                            PS - forgot to add: FHCs, and perhaps your public library, have access to the institutional version of Ancestry for free
                            Last edited by PhotoFamily; 19-11-16, 15:55.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re post #4 There is a bit about the Phoenix Con Co here.
                              Not helping with finding anyone but filling in a bit about where he worked.

                              Edit: archives for the Company here
                              Last edited by Katarzyna; 19-11-16, 18:10.
                              Kat

                              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Sorry Archives above incorrect meant to post this link.

                                Phoenix Con Co Was Phoenix Construction Company
                                Kat

                                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  So many responses and ideas that I hardly know where to begin! Which is a good thing. I need all ideas I can get. This is a huge family mystery, and I would be so happy to figure it out - especially for my grandfather.

                                  Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                                  For some reason I am not seeing the hyperlinks, [well I am but they aren't linking anywhere for me]

                                  have you tried Asman? or Osman?

                                  lovely to see more US people coming on board to our forum! Welcome SunHoney! :smilee:

                                  ~~~to Sarah.
                                  Thanks for the welcome! I'm trying every variation I can think of, from Oshkin to Askam to Ashkin and everything in between! :P

                                  In the UK most 12 year olds would have been working so running away from home may just have been a clash of family personalities and nothing to do with abuse.
                                  Oh very interesting! This was in the United States though, although I don't know if that would make a difference. I have him in the 1900 census living about 4 1/2 hrs from his birthplace with a family, listed as a "boarder" and there are two "hired men" living there too. I thought it was odd for a kid to be a boarder. I wonder if he was actually working for them but naturally wouldn't list on the census "hired child" lol. I don't know.

                                  But not that unusual. I have several instances of a widowed spouse marrying the sister.

                                  ** Do you have the actual marriage certificates, and do you have the marriage licenses?? ** Not all information is transcribed from records. Again, if you don't have copies of the actual records, you can't be sure what's there. "Leave no stone unturned" - but genealogists often turn over stones and still find nothing.
                                  I do not have both for both marriages I don't think. I do have a doc that's filled out (not sure if someone here directed me to it) but naturally the part with his parents is left blank. I'll ask my grandpa, who has a big trunk of documents and photos (someday I'm going back to my hometown to rifle through it all) he might have those, but if they had his parents names I think he'd have known. But who knows what tidbit of info might be on them. I'll ask and my aunt might be able to send a snapshot.

                                  He wasn't widowed actually, they divorced at some point and he lived as a lodger somewhere for a year or two then married my great-grandmother. He was 31, she was 16. All around weird situation to me.

                                  I'll look more into the FHC and also what my local library might have with Ancestry. I'm quite fortunate that a couple sides of my family were LDS, as they take such care with genealogy records and such.
                                  Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    In the UK I have several children/very young adults described as boarders and it generally means that an adult, or a charitable body was paying for their board and keep. A foster child in other words. I don't know what age compulsory education finished in the USA in 1900. It does look like he was living way from his parents, under some kind of adult supervision.

                                    (Incidentally, two of my child boarders turned out to be the grandchildren of the head of the household!)

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                      In the UK I have several children/very young adults described as boarders and it generally means that an adult, or a charitable body was paying for their board and keep. A foster child in other words. I don't know what age compulsory education finished in the USA in 1900. It does look like he was living way from his parents, under some kind of adult supervision.

                                      (Incidentally, two of my child boarders turned out to be the grandchildren of the head of the household!)

                                      OC
                                      I forgot something, nevermind what I said about a possible child hired help, the census does say he's attending school, and later records say he finished school. So whoever this family was, they seem to have taken good care of him. I'd love any thoughts about his situation. So very helpful. Because I have to wonder what happened to him...did he run away, become found by someone, then placed in foster care? When he told his own children that he ran away, could he possibly have meant that he refused to stay at home and so was sent to live with family? Perhaps these had been his neighbors at some point. I've been researching them but haven't found a link quite yet.
                                      Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Also, this is the census. He's near the bottom, living with the Hindmans. Name spelled Harland E.

                                        Primarily researching Ashman (very focused on this uncommon surname in the USA!), Martin, Fowler, Munsell, and Huffman. Locations include Ohio, Oregon, Utah, California, Scotland, England, Germany, and Denmark.

                                        Comment

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