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  • Edmonds/Barnes brick wall.

    Hi everyone.
    This is a bit long winded so please bear with me. If you manage to read to the end & are not totalling confused I would like some help with this family.

    Mary Susannah Barnes was born 25th Sep 1876 at 46 Cannon St, Brighton, parents Thomas & Anne Maria (nee Dean) Barnes.
    By 1911 she was living in Plaistow (Essex), going under the name of Maggie Edmonds age 34 a widow, married 17 years having had 7 children, 2 of whom have died. Living with her was her widowed mother Annie Barnes age 64 born London.
    All 5 surviving children are living with her, all with surname Edmonds.
    Hetty age 14 born Brighton.
    Harry age 11 born Bow
    May age 8 born Plaistow
    Edward age 7 born West Ham
    Kathleen age 3 born West Ham


    Edward was my son-in-law’s grandfather. On his marriage cert he gave his father as Charles Edmonds, merchant seaman (deceased). Over the years my daughter has bought numerous birth certs for Edward but none turned out to have a father named Charles & it wasn’t until the 1939 register became available that was she able to find an exact date of birth for him & found that she already had his birth cert giving his father as Henry Edmonds, general labourer. He was born on 29/10/1903 in Stepney workhouse.

    We now have the birth certs for
    HETTY, registered as Henrietta Victoria Edmonds, born 3/2/1897 Brighton, no father named, mother Mary Barnes
    HARRY registered as Harry Barnes 31/1/1900 Mile End. Mother Mary Barnes formerly Edmonds, father Henry Barnes, sapper in 1st battalion Royal Engineers. We think the registrar got the surnames round the wrong way.
    MAY registered as May Constance born 7/5/1902 Plaistow, mother Mary Edmonds formerly Barnes, father Henry Edmonds, a reservist.
    KATHLEEN. We know she was born 25/1 1908 (from 1939 register) but have not been able to find a birth entry for her.


    Mary/Maggie now Margaret Edmonds, widow age 36 married Walter King in 1913 at West Ham Register Office. We think they may have had 3 children but don’t have the birth certs. Hilda 1913, Margaret 1915, W..... . 1919.

    Henrietta Victoria married in 1915 naming her father as Walter King!
    May Constance married in 1923 naming her father as Henry Edmonds (deceased) a soldier.
    Harry married in 1919 naming his father as Henry Edmonds (deceased).
    Edward married 1926 naming his father as Charles Edmonds (deceased) merchant seaman.
    Kathleen married in 1927 naming her father as Henry Charles Edmonds (deceased).

    Would welcome your opinions about Henry Edmonds the purported father of all Mary/Maggie’s children. Was he maybe just Henrietta’s father & Mary/Maggie used his name for the father of her later children? But she seems to have gone into quite a lot of detail about his occupation i.e sapper in 1st batt Royal Engineers & later a reservist. Did he exist or did she just have a vivid imagination?

    I am trying to find Mary/Maggie in 1901 with or without her son Harry who would have been 14 months old on census day. Harry is not with Annie Barnes (grandmother) although Henrietta (Dolly) is.
    I think this may be the Barnes family in 1891. Although the mother is Louisa & not Annie all the details of the children seem to fit with them being Mary/Maggie & her sister & brother.

    I am also trying to find out what happened to Margaret & Walter King after their marriage in 1913 & also Hilda, Margaret & W..... . King who may or may not be children of the marriage. We have drawn a complete blank. Although we have Mary/Maggie’s date of birth she does not show up in 1939 so may have died although she would only have been 63 & the only details we have about Walter King come from the marriage cert. He was aged 40, a widower, a builders labourer & his father was Samuel King, blacksmith. The family lived at 143 Abbey Lane West Ham from at least 1915- 1927 & maybe later but appear to have moved pre 1939.
    With such a common surname it’s not an easy task so any help would be appreciated.

    Many thanks
    Moggie

    Sorry Moggie, I have had to remove one name as less than 100 years ago and I can't find a death.
    Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 03-08-16, 08:40.

  • #2
    not having much luck at the moment

    Comment


    • #3
      have to give up for now ,night

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by maudarby View Post
        HARRY registered as Harry Barnes 31/1/1900 Mile End. Mother Mary Barnes formerly Edmonds, father Henry Barnes, sapper in 1st battalion Royal Engineers. We think the registrar got the surnames round the wrong way.
        Be careful of assuming convenient mistakes to explain away inconsistencies - far more likely to be her attempt to present herself as married but using her proper name of Barnes.

        The crucial column on the certificate will be the informant - how did Mary sign, and was she the only informant ?

        Originally posted by maudarby View Post
        Henrietta Victoria married in 1915 naming her father as Walter King!
        Which is perfectly acceptable - the father named on a marriage registration can be the natural father, adoptive father or as it appears in this case a step-father (with the proviso he must actually be married to the mother).... although the words "step-father" should really be entered.
        Last edited by AntonyM; 02-08-16, 10:36.
        Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
        Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

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        • #5
          Hi
          Thanks Val for trying, not an easy family to pin down.

          Anthony- The informant was Maggie Barnes, mother. Perhaps I should be looking for her as Barnes & not Edmonds in 1901. Didn't think of that, thanks.
          Moggie

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          • #6
            You have evidence that she lied about being married on at least one of the birth registrations, but no evidence a marriage actually took place ? You should be searching under any names she is known to have used.

            I would say that the use of Edmonds as a middle name for Henrietta and the fact the name does appear on the other births (and later marriages) would tend to suggest that this man did probably exist but may have been out of the picture by the early 1900s - the lack of a birth registration for Kathleen in either Barnes or Edmonds) suggests she may have been registered under a different name altogether, which could take some tracking down. Have you found baptism records for any of the children ?
            Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
            Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

            Comment


            • #7
              There is a birth of a Kathleen Mary Barns (no e) in June 1908 West Ham ref 4a 393. I wonder if this could be her?

              SORRY - ignore that one. I have found her with parents in 1911.
              Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 02-08-16, 11:34.
              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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              • #8
                I did look under Barnes for her too ,:(am back now so shall have another look

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                  I did look under Barnes for her too ,:(am back now so shall have another look
                  Thanks Val. I looked for her in 1901 as Barnes but couldn't find her. I also looked at the address on Harry's birth cert (1900) but there didn't seem to be any connection with the people living there in 1901.

                  Anthony- I haven't found any baptisms for the children. I went through all the Kathleens registered Q1 1908 in West Ham but none of the surnames jumped out at me.
                  Moggie

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                  • #10
                    what was that address ?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                      what was that address ?
                      19 Clinton Road, Mile End Old Town.
                      Moggie

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                      • #12
                        Walter C birth

                        W..... . King
                        Birth year 1919
                        Birth quarter 3
                        Mother's last name Barnes
                        District West Ham
                        County Essex
                        Country England
                        Volume 4A
                        Page 25

                        Sorry Val, I can't find a death for him.So had to remove name.
                        Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 03-08-16, 08:35.

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                        • #13
                          Hilda

                          Hilda King
                          Birth year 1913
                          Birth quarter 4
                          Mother's last name Barnes
                          District West Ham
                          County Essex
                          Country England
                          Volume 4A
                          Page 251

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Margaret

                            Margaret King
                            Birth year 1915
                            Birth quarter 4
                            Mother's last name Barnes
                            District West Ham
                            County Essex
                            Country England
                            Volume 4A
                            Page 55

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              maybe another child

                              Winifred M
                              Last name King
                              Birth year 1912
                              Birth quarter 2
                              Mother's last name Barnes
                              District Romford
                              County Essex
                              Country England
                              Volume 4A
                              Page 995

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                                maybe another child

                                Winifred M
                                Last name King
                                Birth year 1912
                                Birth quarter 2
                                Mother's last name Barnes
                                District Romford
                                County Essex
                                Country England
                                Volume 4A
                                Page 995
                                Thanks Val
                                The 1st 3 are the ones we found & I think my daughter is going to send for one of them.
                                I hadn't seen the one for Winifred so will look into her.
                                Moggie

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                                • #17
                                  I wasn't sure if you had the birth regs for them, very hard to find much at all, but I wont give up

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                                  • #18
                                    wonder if this is Kathleen
                                    Emma Kathleen
                                    Last name Barnes
                                    Birth year 1908
                                    Birth quarter 4
                                    District West Ham
                                    County Essex
                                    Country England
                                    Volume 4A
                                    Page 50

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      or even this one
                                      Female
                                      Last name Barnes
                                      Birth year 1909
                                      Birth quarter 4
                                      District West Ham
                                      County Essex
                                      Country England
                                      Volume 4A
                                      Page 225

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        or
                                        Kathleen Vera
                                        Last name Barnes
                                        Birth year 1909
                                        Birth quarter 1
                                        District West Ham
                                        County Essex
                                        Country England
                                        Volume 4A
                                        Page 476

                                        Comment

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