Missing marriages

[Zumfan]

Hi everyone, I am new to the forum but not new to FH. I often do trees for other people, with Auction of Promises or such like, not professionally. Currently I am flummoxed. I am researching a family called CARL, and there are two marriages that elude me.

Peter J Carl appears in 1881 at 18, Broad St, St James, Westminster with wife Elizabeth and two of his children, birthplace given as France.

He died in 1884 at the French Hospital in 1884 under the name Pierre Joseph CARL. From the birth certificate of one of his children, I know his wife's maiden name was BEST. But I can't find a marriage.

Similarly, his son John Henry Ernest CARL (the name order changes) born 1876 married Frances DELMEGE, Irish by birth. Both were in the theatre. They had six children, the eldest in 1906 in Lambeth. In 1901 before their marriage (presumably) they were both boarders at 151, Islington, Liverpool.

I realise that the first two might have married in France and the second in Ireland, or not at all, or I just might be missing something on GRO records. (There is an asterisk on an entry for Carl, John Jun Q 1902 Mile End 1c 608a, but I am not convinced enough to spend 'a waste of money' on it)

The aim is to find out more about Pierre and Frances' ancestry so some father's names on certificates would be really helpful. Any ideas please?

[Janet H.]

for information only
John Henry Ernest born 21st July 1876 baptised 13th September 1876 at St John the Baptist, Great Marlborough Street Middlesex Record set - Westminster Baptisms
Father Peter Joseph mother Elizabeth
records also show same birth date and parents but baptised 10th September Parish St James, Piccadilly County Middlesex

there is a death record for a John E H Carl Birth year
1877
Age 76
Death quarter 1
Death year 1953
District LAMBETH
County London

[Janet H.]

1911 census has him living Swansea Glamorgan Theatrical property master on stage. Says married but his wife is not with him. Presume she is with the children.

there is a tree on Anc***y with the children listed. No marriage for either him or his parents though

[Sylvia C]

Have you looked for an earlier marriage for any of the spouses to see if there was a barrier to either of the couples marrying?

[Chrissie Smiff]

Looking at Frances?/Fanny I believe this is her in 1911 -

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_01960_0809_03?pid=3297265&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1911England%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dFanny%26gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dCarl%26gsln_x%3d0%26msbdy%3d1872%26msbpn__ftp%3dIreland%26msbpn%3d3250%26msbpn_PInfo%3d3-%257c0%257c1652381%257c0%257c3250%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3duo6%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d3297265%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true

Everything on Ancestry points to her being sparing with her age as a Fanny Delmarge was born in Cork 12th May 1872 -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=FSIrelandBirth&h=2309104&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&rhSource=2352

Her parents appear to be Solomon Delmarge (father Adam), who married Sarah Bateman in Cork on 14th April 1857 -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=FS1IrelandMarriages&h=1182169&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&rhSource=2533

[Chrissie Smiff]

John Henry Ernest and Fanny also appear to have had more than 6 children.
In 1911 it says that they had 5, 2 of whom had died, 3 still alive.

In March 1912 there are twin births – Ernest W and Frederick C Carl (both mmn transcribed as Delmege). Ernest W dying in the September quarter and Frederick Charles Carl (born 12th Feb 1912, dying in July 2003 aged 91 in West Surrey.

In Dec 1914 there is the birth of Samuel J H Carl mmn Delmarge. I can’t find a death – hence the ***** Now reinstated as he appears to have married as Samuel J Carl, become John S Carl (born 17-9-1914) in 1939 and died as John Henry Carl (born 17-9-1914) in March 1975 aged 60 in Lambeth.

And finally, in March 1917 there is the birth of a Dorothy M R Carl mmn Delmege. She appears to have married a Simpson and died (born 1st Feb 1917) in March 1978 in Durham.

So that would be 9 children.

[Zumfan]

Thanks for this, Chrissie and Sylvia C and Janet H. I have most of this information you have offered. But not the name of Frances/Fanny's parents, where did you find that? Of the children, I had all but Dorothy. How do you make 9? I have Winifred (mother of my enquirer), Amelia, Bessie, Ernest, Frederick, Samuel and now Dorothy which makes 7. And no darn marriages! I will try hunting for previous spouses as suggested, but think it unlikely, or unlikely I'll find them if they were abroad.

[Zumfan]

Sorry Chrissie, just re-read 1911 for Fanny and see what you mean about 9 children, now.

[Chrissie Smiff]

The birth was on the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911 and the marriage was in the Ireland, Select Marriages, 1619-1898. I forgot to say that Sarah Bateman's father appears to be George Bateman.