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PeteW1959
31-05-16, 20:19
I have a couple, John Joseph and Sophia Blunt on all censuses from 1881 to 1911. He was born c1850 and was a packer or other labourer on every census, and in 1911 they were married 37 years.

In 1861 John was in the Shorditch workhouse as an orphan, and in 1851 he was with his parents; his father was Thomas and he was a carman.

I have been trying to find a marriage to find Sophia's maiden name, but I can only find one, 15 Feb 1874 in Stepney that even remotely fits. Sophia is Chaple, but John's father is John, not Thomas, and he is a billiard table maker and his father a cabinet maker (image available on Ancestry). No other clues in the addresses or witnesses.

So, is the right marriage, or are the occupations and father's name too far out?

For reference the census pages are:-

HO107; Piece: 1521; Folio: 193; Page: 23
RG 9; Piece: 237; Folio: 16; Page: 4
RG10; Piece: 565; Folio: 7; Page: 7
RG11; Piece: 535; Folio: 61; Page: 3
RG12; Piece: 475; Folio: 31; Page: 55
RG13; Piece: 505; Folio: 121; Page: 45
RG14; Piece: 2560

JBee
31-05-16, 20:28
So between which census was he married and where was he living before and after?

Sophie may have been married before so just look for a marriage with the same first name Or she might have used a middle name.

Have you looked for her in the census's using first name, approx. age and place of birth.

Once you can find them in the same area single and then married then the marriage should be in the intervening years if there was one.

Alternative is to look on family search for the christening of any children and hopefully there will be the maiden name of the mother - otherwise sending for a birth certificate.

Val wish Id never started
31-05-16, 21:33
if he was an orphan maybe as he was so young he did not know his fathers proper name ?

PeteW1959
31-05-16, 23:06
He was single and a boarder in 1871, then married with Sophia and 2 children aged 6 and 4 in 1881. This, coupled with 37 years married in 1911 puts the marriage circa 1874.

I have searched for John Blunt marrying Sophia (no surname) between 1871 and 1881 and only the one comes up on Ancestry, FMP and FreeBMD.

I have tried to find Sophia Chaple in 1871 but can only find one, she is living in Cambridge as a servant so can't confirm as she isn't with her father, and I haven't been able to locate her in 1861.

The address that John is at in 1871 is different to the one on the marriage cert. I have checked at the addresses on the marriage cert in 1871 and neither of them are there.

The baptism record doesn't state the mother's maiden name, so I guess it will have to be the BC, but as this is a minor twig in my tree, that will have to wait until I win the lottery!

If it was just the father's name being wrong I might accept it (it isn't an uncommon occurence), but a billiard table maker, the son of a cabinet maker, both artisans, doesn't really fit with the unskilled occupations of both father and son on all the census returns.

Anne in Carlisle
31-05-16, 23:22
I would be very suspicious of fathers name AND both occupations wrong. Specially billiard table maker, which is very specific. However ..... Stranger things have happened. I had a groom who was always a labourer in records, except his marriage cert which said he was a police constable. It turned out he really had been in the police for just a couple of years around the time of his marriage.
Anne

Val wish Id never started
01-06-16, 15:03
think this is that one in 1861

Census details
First name(s) Sophia
Last name Chappel
Relationship Daughter
Marital status -
Gender Female
Age 9
Birth year 1852
Occupation -
Birth town Cambridge
Birth town as transcribed CAMBRIDGE
Birth county Cambridgeshire
Birth county as transcribed CAMBRIDGESHIRE
Birth place (other) England
Birth place other as transcribed -
House number 20
Street Cambridge Place

Val wish Id never started
01-06-16, 15:28
I was looking for a John Joseph marrying a Sophia Blunt as your first post is misleading.

John
Blunt
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1874
Sophia Chaple
District Mile End Old Town
County London
Country England
Volume 1C
Page 775

Val wish Id never started
01-06-16, 16:10
oh I see now ,this is the marriage you did find , wonder if he just fibbed?

Val wish Id never started
01-06-16, 16:27
just a thought but if that Jane Blunt in 1861 is his sister maybe you could see who she says her father is?

PeteW1959
01-06-16, 16:42
Thanks Val, and reading back now I can see the confusion in my first post! Yes, that is the marriage I am talking about, and Ancestry have the parish register image with all the details.

Jane is indeed his sister, but I haven't been able to find her after 1861. There are several possiblities, including a couple of marriages, but nothing I can definitely say is her.

They also have a younger brother Thomas George Blunt, but on his marriage certificate his father is correctly named as Thomas, but the occupation is 'deceased'!

The puzzling thing is that if the couple in that marriage aren't mine, where are they in subsequent censuses? I cannot find any other couple that fit other than mine.

Val wish Id never started
01-06-16, 22:12
this looks like Jane Ann Blunt's Bap so the 1851 census is the right one I would say ?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_197286-00065?pid=3207107&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DMBf951%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3Djane%252 0ann%26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3Dblunt%26gsln_x%3D0%26MS AV%3D0%26msbdy%3D1850%26cp%3D0%26catbucket%3Drstp% 26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D3207107%26recoff%3D8% 25209%252010%252029%252041%26db%3DLMAbirths%26indi v%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=MBf951&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

PeteW1959
02-06-16, 10:25
Yes Val, that is the baptism, there is also one for John Joseph, but not Thomas George. I only know Thomas George is a brother because he is living with John and Sophia in 1891. There may be other siblings for all I know, born between 1851 and their parents death in 1857/8.

I am as certain as I can be that the census trail is correct, it is just trying to find Sophia's maiden name and the marriage date for completeness; I rarely trace 'married ins' back.

Chrissie Smiff
02-06-16, 10:46
Don't forget that when his father died I think he would only have been about 6 and a half, and 8 when his mother died. So it's hardly surprising if he didn't remember his fathers name, and even less his occupation. If it is him he didn't even use his middle name when he married either.
Have you looked for a John Blunt with a father John who was a cabinet maker or similar?

Val wish Id never started
02-06-16, 19:51
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1524_1524-0823?pid=2883496&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DsFp3%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%2 6usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1851%26gss% 3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsfn%3Dtho mas%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dblant%26gsln_x%3D1%26msb dy%3D1806%26msbdy_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3Duld%26 pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D2883496%26recoff%3D7%2520 8%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=sFp3&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
1851 there is this Thomas Blant a Cabinet Maker , looks like Blunt to me

Chrissie Smiff
02-06-16, 21:01
He gave his father's name as John though Val and that one is an unmarried Thomas.

Val wish Id never started
02-06-16, 21:10
oh I was just looking for a Blunt a Cabinet Maker think I'll give it a rest for a while brain is getting addled;)

Chrissie Smiff
02-06-16, 21:21
I was just meaning to find a father John a cabinet maker with a son John of the right age. Otherwise I suspect it's probably the right marriage. It's a puzzle at the moment how to prove it though.

PeteW1959
03-06-16, 09:27
Thanks for your efforts Val. I agree Chrissie, it probably is the correct marriage, but the only proof I have so far is that it isn't anyone else's marriage!

Chrissie Smiff
03-06-16, 11:00
I have a possible theory about Sophia. It's a bit complicated though (in fact I was just logged out because I took so long researching lol). After her marriage she says that she was born in Cambridge, but I couldn't find a birth under any of the variations of Chaple. Then I found Sophia in 1871, which led me to this Chappel family in 1861 -
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/CAMRG9_1022_1024-0863?pid=16512292&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1861%26h%3d165 12292%26tid%3d%26pid%3d%26usePUB%3dtrue%26rhSource %3d8860&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true

I was still unconvinced as the father on this one was Peter Chappel, mother Sarah. However, this led me to 1851, where Peter is a Lodger with Sarah Bowtell and her children Susan 6 and Mary Ann 1 -
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/CAMHO107_1760_1760-0178?pid=4528884&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26h%3d452 8884%26tid%3d%26pid%3d%26usePUB%3dtrue%26rhSource% 3d8767&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true

When I checked, the supposed Chappel children in 1861 were all still registered under the name Bowtell, except Sophia. I have found a Sophia Bouttel though, Born March 1852 in Cambridge ref 3b 466. An easy misspelling to make in those days.

It's obviously just a theory but I'm wondering whether neither John or Sophia knew their fathers names and made them up? What do you think? She would have made a quick move from Cambridge in 1871 though, to get married in 1874 in Stepney. I don't think Peter Chappel/Chappell married Sarah. I wonder if they just decided to live together as husband and wife, so the children became Chappell/Chappel/Chaple.

JudithM
03-06-16, 16:31
................It's obviously just a theory but I'm wondering whether neither John or Sophia knew their fathers names and made them up? What do you think? She would have made a quick move from Cambridge in 1871 though, to get married in 1874 in Stepney. I don't think Peter Chappel/Chappell married Sarah. I wonder if they just decided to live together as husband and wife, so the children became Chappell/Chappel/Chaple.

At around age 19 or 20 it is quite possible that Sophia went to London to be employed "in service" as several of my Cambridgeshire family, including my grandma,did. My relatives then married in London rather than going back to their home villages.

JudithM
03-06-16, 16:34
Thanks for your efforts Val. I agree Chrissie, it probably is the correct marriage, but the only proof I have so far is that it isn't anyone else's marriage!
That's a good start though Pete - if you can't prove something is wrong then it isn't definitely right but it does become more likely.:) One to record on the tree with note to self to check back from time to time in case more evidence becomes available.