Grandfather's naval records

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Years ago I got someone to check out Grandfathers merchant and royal naval records at the national archives.

I never met him as he died of pneumonia in 1929 but my nan always had a large glass display with a ship in it and my mum said it was of his ship at the Battle of Jutland. Now my sister has become interested in this as of course the Jutland Battle is on tv a lot now.

She has asked me to find the name of Grandfathers ship but Im having trouble doing it as I can find a couple of ship names on his records but some have just a sort of reference number and I wondered if anyone knows what this means, if anything please?

For instance: This record shows ship name as 13 S.S.S. (I assume thats steam ship? as he was a leading stoker)

Name J Horstead
Medal or Award Star, Victory Medal, British War Medal
Service Year 1914-1920
Service Location Europe
Campaign or Service World War I
Ship Name 13 S.S.S.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Isnt it awful, just realised reading the old notes he was also at the evacuation of Anzac. Goes through all those battles and dies of pneumonia in 1929 - terrible

[maudarby]

Hi Heather
I think the sss stands for "squadron supply ship" but haven't been able to find a site that puts numbers to ship's names. I think on one site it said there were 36 of these supply ships.
Moggie

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Thanks very much maudarby. I wish I had at least met him, he sounds such a lovely man.

[merleyone]

It is almost certain that the SSS does relate to Squadron Supply Ship as previously mentioned. Ships included in such a Squadron were merchant ships requisitioned by the Admiralty for various purposes during wartime. They retained their name and crew, who were Merchant Seamen although then subject under the Naval Discipline Act. Most ships were indeed engaged on delivering stores of all sorts to warships but some were armed as patrol ships, escort ships etc. In the latter cases they were sometimes commanded by a RN Officer and sometimes carried a mixed crew, part RN and part Merchant Marine.
As you mention that you know some ships names you may find a reference to them on http://historicalrfa.org which lists more than 850 such ships alphabetically from WW1 & WW2 on its website, under Requisitioned Auxililaries. (RFA stands for Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which is the current name for such ships today, crewed by the Merchant Marine but serving the RN)

I looked for J Horstead deaths in 1929 and there are only two. Both in London in Qtr 1 and both named James, one aged 81 and one aged 46. There are no RN records of service at TNA for any James Horstead but if your grandfather was James Horstead b. 13/2/1883, London, there is an Identity Certificate for him on FMP, complete with photograph, under Merchant Navy etc. If this chap is your grandfather, he was in the Merchant Navy, which links neatly in with SSS crewing.
If you have any RN service record, it will always show prominently the individual's service number. If you have his medals, they may give his name and number around the edge.

Being civilian manned ships, Squadron Supply ships were generally not likely to have been involved in any intended action such as the Battle of Jutland, fought just off the Danish coast, but were used wherever necessary and always liable to the same wartime risks and hazards as any other ship under Admiralty control.

Good luck with your search for your grandfather's ship and I wish you success.

merleyone

[Heather Positive Thinker]

How VERY kind of your merleyone. Yes, the chap who died in 1929 in his 40s was my grandfather. Mum was only 8 when he died of pneumonia. The other chap was his uncle

I did have a chap go to the NA perhaps 10 years back and he got me the merchant navy identity photo (looking like HItler, LOL) and I do have that and his merchant navy numbers. He was 6ft 2" and known as "Bear" - amazing he got through the war when he must have been head and shoulders above most of the men and a prime target.

I have four names of ships he served on his records he was in the marine reserves I believe and enlisted in 1914 for WW1. His record says he was demobilised in 1920

I do have his list of medals too and I know he was at the landing at ANzac? Sulva Bay and the evacuation of troops from there. I know he went to Murmansk, Russia too and my sister still has two little seals (made of seal skin ugh) that he brought back as a pressie for my nan. Also we have a jet necklace that he got somewhere there too - it was very long so my mum had it split in two and we have one necklace each. May be mum confused Jutland with Anzac? Seems unlikely as I doubt she would have known much about the war except for seeing this ship in a display at her mums house.

My sister also (curiously) has a bosuns whistle with his name engraved on it. I cant imagine why a leading stoker would have the whistle - may be someone gave it to him as a present. Up to when my dad died 10 years ago, I also saw very regularly my grandfathers kit bag in my dads understairs cupboard, sadly my sister threw it out but I have the little lock that was on it.


I found it quite sad to see on one crew list I have of him, the man who married my nan after grand dad died is listed. I guess they must have been crew mates and friends.

I shall cetainly have a look at that information you have provided, thanks so much.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Found some of the info I got a decade back, in case its of interest

:
J. Leading Stoker. R.N.
112 Neptune St. Rotherhithe.



Merchant Navy I.D. card No. 429718 - On the actual photograph No. 129718.

On Mercantile Marine Reserves Service Record for WW1 Horstead, J, Leading Fireman 13 S.S.S.
791125 Medals earned ST, V, B issued S.ll.


From National Roll WW1:

"Horstead, James, Leading Stoker R.N.

Volunteered in September 1914, was sent to the North Sea on patrol duties. In April 1915 he was transferred to the Dardanelles and took part in the Landing at Suvla Bay and the Evacuation. Afterwards he returned to home waters and served in HMS Attendant and later was posted to HM Rescue Tug "Roll Call" and proceeded to North Russia where he was in action on the Murmansk Coast. He was demobilised in February 1920 and holds the 1914-15 Star,and the General Service and Victory Medals. 112 Neptune Street, Rotherhithe SE16."

[maudarby]

Hi Heather
You may already have found these sites but if not there is some interesting info about the 2 ships that you mentioned.

http://www.historicalrfa.org/rfa-attendant

http://forums.clydemaritime.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=12248

Moggie

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Many thanks MOggie. Id seen HMS Attendant but not Rollcall. Very kind of you. There is another called HMS Eaglet I think. I shall see if I can find that one too now. x

Oh here it is


The ship Eagle/Eaglet was a former 3rd rate ship of the line which had been built in 1804 and was taken over as an RN drill ship in 1911 by the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. Upon general mobilisation in 1914 most of the Division, instead of going to sea with the Fleet, was drafted to the Royal Naval Division where it fought alongside the Army at Antwerp, Gallipoli and from 1916 on the Western Front.

[merleyone]

The details laid out in Post 7 are both interesting and very useful, leading to these thoughts.
From the National Roll, your grandfather served around Gallipoli both at the time of the landing and the evacuation, which means he must have been around there from April to December 1915. The evacuation was conducted with great secrecy at night with the final 20,000 men taken off during the nights of 18, 19 & 20 December 1915. That being so, he must have joined Attendant early in 1916 and if he later joined Rollcall from Attendant, as the National Roll also states, that could not have been until after 27/12/1918. Rollcall was a Rescue Tug which was registered in London for the Admiralty on that day with number W81, having only been launched in August 1918, so 1919 seems a much more likely date for him joining Rollcall. This means Attendant was his ship for around 3 years, including the time of Jutland, which is not mentioned at all in his National Roll entry, as might have been expected had he served there.
It was RFA Attendant rather than HMS Attendant, also listed as such in the 1919 edition of Janes, the definitive guide and reference for all ships used by the World's Navies. Attendant was an oiler, refuelling naval ships with oil as required whilst moored alongside them in a sheltered location, never on the open sea in those days.
Records on http://www.historicalrfa.org/rfa-attendant show that from 1915 until April 1919, most of RFA Attendant's oiling was undertaken at Rosyth or in Scapa Flow.
As the latter was also the base for the Grand Fleet, some affinity might be expected with those ships which fought at Jutland.

That date of 27/12/1918 is also more than a month after the Armistice, on 11/11/1918, when hostilities between Germany and the Allies ended but, following the Russian Revolution in 1917, a civil war had raged there between the Red and White Armies across the entire country. The British government saw fit to meddle in this conflict and, being opposed to the revolutionaries, sent forces to Murmansk in 1919 to support the White Army, which is how your grandfather found himself on Rollcall in Russia.

Had your grandfather ever been in the Navy, or even the Naval Division, there would be a Royal Navy Service Record for him but there is none.

He was a member of the MMR. Mercantile Marine Reserve, hence his record referred to in Post 7, and was clearly a crew member on various ships under overall RN control as part of 13 SSS.
The MMR was formed originally from members of the Merchant Navy by the Admiralty, who could then call on experienced men and officers at short notice in time of war.
Neither did the MMR have anything to do with Marines, or any reserve of them, although the use of the words Marine/Marines has often led to some confusion on occasion.
The MMR record shows his rank as Leading Fireman, which is a Merchant Navy/Mercantile Marine rank equivalent to the RN rank of Leading Stoker, each with similar duties; they both stoked ships boilers by shovelling coal.
Calling yourself Stoker rather than Fireman would probably be more readily understood by anyone not fully conversant with the differing naval terms.

As a footnote to your mention in Post 9 of the RN Division, the Royal Naval Division was hastily formed in 1914, comprised of sailors expected to act as soldiers with little or no adequate training and was rushed up through Belgium to defend Antwerp from the German Army. Cut off by the swift German advance, the RN Division was unable to withstand the onslaught and the survivors only escaped their clutches by crossing the border into Holland, where they were then interned for the duration by that neutral country.


Hope this is useful background for you and of some help.

merleyone