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TreeFlyingSquirrel
27-04-16, 00:12
I have a birth for a Charlotte Carr in the Scottish Old Parish registers of Perth. Born to Duncan Carr and Catherine Brewster on August 9, 1820.

I am trying to determine if this is the same Charlotte Carr that married John Honey on Dec. 10, 1839 at St Martins Parish.

This marriage of Charlotte Carr and John Honey produced a Charlotte Honey born 1844 in Scotland.



Does anyone have ideas to confirm that the infant Charlotte Carr in 1920 is the same one that married John Honey in 1839?

Chrissie Smiff
27-04-16, 08:35
Have you looked at the marriage cert in 1839? If so, doesn't it give the parents names?

garstonite
27-04-16, 08:59
1839 - Perth - there was also a Charlotte Carr married a David Drew 14th dec
Charlotte Carr married John Honey dec 10th
just letting you know so as you don't mix the 2 Charlotte Carr up
xx

Charlotte Carr
mentioned in the record of David Drew and Charlotte Carr
Name David Drew
Spouse's Name Charlotte Carr
Event Date 14 Dec 1839
Event Place Errol,Perth,Scotland
Marriage

TreeFlyingSquirrel
27-04-16, 09:07
The Charlotte Carr I'm following married John Honey. I haven't seen a marriage certificate for her, but I imagine the wedding would have been 1840ish.

I guess this means it's possible that the 1820-born Charlotte Carr I have is the one that married Drew instead of Honey?

In the 1841 census, Charlotte (Carr) Honey's age suggests she was born in 1820 or 1821, like the Charlotte in my original post.

Chrissie Smiff
27-04-16, 09:16
They also appear to have been registered the next day in Kinnoull Allan - 15th Dec 1839 - Charlotte Carr to David Drew - Kinnoull Perth 369/00 0030 0417

Chrissie Smiff
27-04-16, 09:18
The marriage cert is available on Scotlands People - 10/12/1839 CARR CHARLOTTE JOHN HONEY/ F ST MARTINS /PERTH 393/00 0030 0135

Chrissie Smiff
27-04-16, 09:21
Oh, I see what you mean. I have just had a look at it and it doesn't give parents names.

JudithM
27-04-16, 09:22
The Charlotte Carr I'm following married John Honey. I haven't seen a marriage certificate for her, but I imagine the wedding would have been 1840ish.

I guess this means it's possible that the 1820-born Charlotte Carr I have is the one that married Drew instead of Honey?

In the 1841 census, Charlotte (Carr) Honey's age suggests she was born in 1820 or 1821, like the Charlotte in my original post.
Don't forget though that on the 1841 census ages of adults were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 so if Charlotte's age was shown as 20 she could have been anywhere between 20 and 24 and so perhaps born as early as 1816

Chrissie Smiff
27-04-16, 09:49
There is something really odd. There is only one birth showing for a Charlotte Carr between 1815 and 1822. In 1841 there is a Charlotte Carr living with David Drew - aged 20 born Perthshire -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1841Scotland&indiv=try&h=1831208

AND a Charlette (probable mistranscription) Honey living with John Honey and baby Catherine aged 1 - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1841Scotland&h=1842203&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&rhSource=1076

Bertie
27-04-16, 10:47
The Charlotte Carr I'm following married John Honey.

The only way to find out the parents of this Charlotte is (as she married before 1855 in Scotland) to find her death record which should (unless you are unfortunate or she died before 1855) give the names of her father and mother. Do you have her death?

Bertie
27-04-16, 10:51
In 1851, Charlette [sic, but same spelling as in 1841] HONEY is shown age 30 born Scone

Bertie
27-04-16, 11:00
In 1861 John is a Widower with likely youngest son Robert age 7 [and likely taken up with Catherine CARR - relation?] as there is a James C[arr?] HONEY age 10 months. This may mean Charle/otte died before 1855 BUT if Catherine is Charlotte's sister all is not lost if the married or you can find her death

Bertie
27-04-16, 11:08
In 1871 Catherine CARR is not in the household but James (now age 10 is). As Catherine is born Scone in 1861, I think it likely she is Charlotte's sister so these are the poss baptisms:

Catharine CARR born 23 Feb 1818 Scone parents Duncan CARR & Catherine BREWSTER
Charlotte CARR born 09 Aug 1820 Scone parents ditto

A death record for Catherine might just clinch it

TreeFlyingSquirrel
27-04-16, 17:55
Great work Bertie, thanks for looking into it.

TreeFlyingSquirrel
27-04-16, 17:58
There is something really odd. There is only one birth showing for a Charlotte Carr between 1815 and 1822. In 1841 there is a Charlotte Carr living with David Drew - aged 20 born Perthshire -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1841Scotland&indiv=try&h=1831208

AND a Charlette (probable mistranscription) Honey living with John Honey and baby Catherine aged 1 - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1841Scotland&h=1842203&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&rhSource=1076

Thanks, this played a role in the discoveries on the next page.

TreeFlyingSquirrel
28-04-16, 17:28
In 1861 John is a Widower with likely youngest son Robert age 7 [and likely taken up with Catherine CARR - relation?] as there is a James C[arr?] HONEY age 10 months. This may mean Charle/otte died before 1855 BUT if Catherine is Charlotte's sister all is not lost if the married or you can find her death

You are right. Catherine and Charlotte are sisters.

I'm now trying in vain to move up the tree from their parents were Duncan Carr and Catharine Brewster.

Bertie
28-04-16, 18:28
You know they married 26 Oct 1818 at Scone - do you have this record? It might give some useful information re his occupation. Otherwise, any Scottish death of any child (after 1855) will state occupation of parents. This may give a useful clue for further research.

In 1841: Catherine is 50 born Perthshire with 3 daughters and in 1851 she is 35 [!] born St. Martins Perthshire. St Martins is a parish in the Strathmore district of Perthshire, containing Guildtown village, 6 miles N by E of Perth which is where they are (i.e. Guildtown in 1841 & 1851). It might be worth checking on baptisms there. A further clue in 1851 is that a nephew John HEPBURN is staying (in 1861 he is a Ploughman in Errol) - he might be the son of Catherine's sister. If you can find his baptism or marriage or death to confirm his mother is a BREWSTER then you can focus your BREWSTER research on finding the parents of both Catherine and her sibling.

Duncan is dead by 1841 it would seem, and certainly by 1851 so the only clue at the moment is the marriage in Scone. This is some 4 miles south of Guildtown and I think is the local church. Chances are that Duncan was from Guildtown too - but just a supposition (which may change if his occupation is ascertained). Have you found a burial for him that would indicate his DOB?

Bertie
28-04-16, 18:37
Re. Duncan - there is a notice in the Perthshire Courier 16 Aug 1832 re a Duncan CARR - a notice to his creditors - stating he has executed a Trust Deed in favour of David Burns, Writer (i.e. Solicitor) in Perth for his creditors to make any claims to - he presumably went bankrupt or out of business. He is described as Grocer and Spirit Dealer, Guildtown. So could be him

TreeFlyingSquirrel
28-04-16, 20:18
The Duncan Carr that married Charlotte Brewster was a blacksmith.

Bertie
29-04-16, 06:49
The Duncan Carr that married Charlotte Brewster was a blacksmith.

What is the source?

Bertie
29-04-16, 07:05
From a web search:

"Guildtown was founded in 1818 by the Guildry Incorporation of Perth. Sitting along what is now the A93 road between Perth and Blairgowrie, Guildtown housed workers tending the Guildry's Craigmakerran Estate which encompasses Hallroom, Redford, Loanhead and Newlands farms. The Guildry's mansion house (Craigmakerran) overlooks Guildtown from the north-east"

And from familysearch:

"MARTIN'S, ST., a parish, in the county of Perth, 5 miles (N. N. E.) from Perth; containing the villages of Caroline-Place and Guildtown, and the hamlet of Cairnbeddie....The old church, built in 1773, and which was both inconvenient and unsafe, was taken down, and a handsome and substantial structure erected in 1842" Film 1040137 covers the parish with births and mariages [with somem gaps] up to 1856 and deaths to 1749. Searching on this film # at familysearch gives the following poss. baptism:

Name Kathrine Brouster
Gender Female
Christening Date 28 Nov 1784
Christening Place SAINT MARTINS,PERTH,SCOTLAND
Father's Name James Brouster
Mother's Name Kathrine Bruce

Though you would need to look at the 1851 original census record (to determine what age she really was) and a burial record to determine whether this record is a bit early

TreeFlyingSquirrel
29-04-16, 08:39
What is the source?


Multiple death records of their children. Listed regularly as smith or blacksmith.

Bertie
29-04-16, 08:52
Multiple death records of their children. Listed regularly as smith or blacksmith.

Could you set out all you know about Duncan CARR & Catherine BREWSTER?

TreeFlyingSquirrel
29-04-16, 09:39
Could you set out all you know about Duncan CARR & Catherine BREWSTER?

Duncan Carr - blacksmith - born unknown, died before 1851 and probably before 1841

Catharine Brewster - grocer - born around 1785-1790 (St. Martins), died 1869 March 2 (St. Martins)


Duncan and Catharine had the following children:

Ann Carr (died unmarried 1865 Jan 12, age 42, Guildtown)
Charlotte (Carr) Honey
……(born 1820 Aug 9, Scone, Perth)
……(married John Honey, Shoemaker)
……(died after 1851 and before 1861 census)
Catherine Carr (born around 1820, died unmarried 1864 Jan 2, St. Martins, Guildtown)
Jane (Carr) Dewar. (born around 1842, died 1898 July 27)
……Jane produced John Hepburn (born around 1856) with David Hepburn but went on to marry William Dewar.

note - these are the kids that I know of, parish records could possibly show more.


1841 Census
- Catharine (Brewster) Carr, age 50, occupation illegible… “Sp. Deal:” ??
- Living with three daughters: Catharine (25), Ann (15), Jean (13)
1851 Census
- C(B)C, age 55, vintner
- Living with two daughters: Catharine (31) and Ann (27)
- Also living with “nephew” John Hepburn (age 5) - actually son of her daughter Jean
1861 Census
- C(B)C age 71 living only with granddaughter Jean Carr (age 10)

Also:
John Hepburn (son of Jane Carr Dewar, apparently grandson of Catherine Brewster) died 1874 May 27.

Bertie
29-04-16, 11:00
Thanks for that. A couple of points....

What does it say on Catherine's death record of 1869? Esp. age and parents?

The fact that she was a spirit dealer [i.e. Sp. Deal. in 1841] / grocer / vintner would make me look again at the press notice for Duncan CARR (likely associated with his death) and to think in terms of Catherine taking over the business. Guildtown was a small place. Also, in my experience when a father has more than on occupation in his life, often the FIRST is stated on official records - this would suggest to me that he was first a Blacksmith then became a Grocer & Spirit Dealer.

Also, the fact he was a Blacksmith, presumably one that had completed his apprenticeship suggests one of two things - his father was a blacksmith and he was apprenticed to him or his parents were sufficiently wealthy for him to be apprenticed to a blacksmith (i.e. cover his costs for the 7 years).

Also, but perhaps of not great significance, to be married in 1818 he would have have had to have completed his apprenticeship and thus would have been at least 21 (assuming normal start at age 14)

TreeFlyingSquirrel
29-04-16, 11:08
Thanks for that. A couple of points....

What does it say on Catherine's death record of 1869? Esp. age and parents?

Literally almost nothing. Her father's last name was Brewster and he was a Pendicler.

Catharine was 84.

Bertie
29-04-16, 11:10
You may find something of use in the Statistical Accounts of Scotland at edina.ac.uk - they have both the first account in the 1790s anf the second for the 1830s/40s for St Martins. You can browse the scanned pages for free [at the bottom right of the login page]. They have much information on the history and life of the parish and may have something of interest on the selling of spirits for example.

Bertie
29-04-16, 11:13
Catharine was 84.

See my post #21 - seems a good possibility.

Duncan may have been born elsewhere and took up an apprenticeship or job in Guildtown - if so more difficult to find him

TreeFlyingSquirrel
30-04-16, 18:29
As we recall, Catharine Brewster was the daughter (baptised Nov. 28, 1784 at St. Martins) of James Brouster and Kathrine Bruce.

From James Brouster (a James Brouster was baptised June 16, 1745 at St Martins, son of John of Eastmoor of ?Carnbarnie?) I've searched the St. Martins register and found some candidates for his parents and grandparents....

At St. Martins:

John Brouster (son of George of Byres) baptised July 25, 1719 - good age to have fathered James




The James Brouster (1745) and John Brouster (1719) are good ages to have fathered the people of appropriate names below them in St. Martins, but that's all I have as a connection...

Good enough to write it in pencil?