Where next with Irish brick wall?

[Deer243]

I’ve been researching my Paternal “Dillon” line for just over two years now and my documentary research and family lore all agrees that my Dillons originally came from Ireland. I've researched a detailed tree going back from myself to my 3X Gt Grandfather Patrick Dillon (born about 1818-1822) who moved to Manchester from Ireland (precise location unknown) in about the 1820s or 30s (probably the 1830s). I know that Patrick had a brother called Luke who was in Manchester as well and that their Father was called Patrick and was a farmer somewhere in Ireland. Unfortunately that is as far back as my knowledge goes and I've been stuck at this brick wall for well over a year now.

No-one in my family knows any further information and I have tested my Y-DNA to look for matches but I didn't have any matches at all with FTDNA. I'm starting to feel that I've exhausted all online records (including the newly released Irish Catholic registers but with no luck at getting further back. I feel absolutely stuck at the moment and would really appreciate some advice as to what to do next.

[Anne in Carlisle]

I'm in exactly your position. GGG grandarents born and married in Ireland but came to Yorkshire about 1822. This is well before the famine period of mass emigration and makes it even more difficult.

We had one tiny clue as to where they might have come from .... their first child was born in Ireland and in the 1901 census she gives her place of birth as Drogheda. I trawled through the available Drogheda records looking for a possible baptism or marriage of the parents but have not, so far, been successful. The writing is very hard to read and the names Latinised in various fairly random ways, so that makes it even more uncertain if the right record is found.
Good luck in your search!
Anne

[vera2013]

In the hope that you might get lucky like Anne and find a snip of info, please answer a couple of queries

Why do you think the family moved to Manchester in the 1820/30's
What evidence do you have that Luke is Patrick's brother

Thanks

I can see three Luke's married to 3 Mary's. I can see the Luke and Mary who lived in the same street as Patrick in Manchester in 1851 but there is also a Luke who married a Mary Burn/Byrne with witness Ann Burn

Vera

[Deer243]

I think that the move from Ireland happened in the 1820/30's because Patrick (the son) was born in Ireland in about 1818-22 and so he would have been living in Ireland at this point, Luke Dillon married in 1839 in Manchester and according to the marriage certificate Luke was living in Manchester at the time. In my opinion this suggests that the move took place between these two dates, presumably once Patrick and Luke were old enough to travel on their own since I have never seen any mention of the Parents on any records in England.

As for evidence that Luke and Patrick are brothers I strongly suspected it for a long time but got what I feel is pretty solid proof when I ordered Luke's marriage certificate which gave his Father's name as "Patrick Dillon", the same name that Patrick's marriage certificate gives for his Father. Also, the name Luke is frequently used on both Patrick and Luke's sides of the family and the same occupation of "Sawyer" is found on both sides as well quite frequently.

"My" Luke married Mary O'Neal (I've got a copy of the marriage certificate), the Luke who married Mary Burnes is not a relative as far as I am aware although it is very interesting since there aren't that many Luke Dillons about and with marying a Burns (the same surname as Patrick's Wife) it does make quite a coincidence, although the other Luke was CoE whilst my Dillons were Catholic.

[vera2013]

Thanks for the info. I was just about to post to ignore my remarks about the marriages. I see the Luke who married Mary Byrnes in 1841 was born in Stockport, Cheshire.

Will take another look

Vera

[Deer243]

Great, thanks.

[Elwyn]

I’ve been researching my Paternal “Dillon” line for just over two years now and my documentary research and family lore all agrees that my Dillons originally came from Ireland. I've researched a detailed tree going back from myself to my 3X Gt Grandfather Patrick Dillon (born about 1818-1822) who moved to Manchester from Ireland (precise location unknown) in about the 1820s or 30s (probably the 1830s). I know that Patrick had a brother called Luke who was in Manchester as well and that their Father was called Patrick and was a farmer somewhere in Ireland. Unfortunately that is as far back as my knowledge goes and I've been stuck at this brick wall for well over a year now.

No-one in my family knows any further information and I have tested my Y-DNA to look for matches but I didn't have any matches at all with FTDNA. I'm starting to feel that I've exhausted all online records (including the newly released Irish Catholic registers but with no luck at getting further back. I feel absolutely stuck at the moment and would really appreciate some advice as to what to do next.

There are no easy ways forward in this situation. Many parishes in Ireland don’t have any records for the 1700s and early 1800s making it impossible to trace them that way. There probably aren’t any paper records in Ireland relevant to your research.

A problem with DNA testing is that comparatively few Irish people have been tested (most aren’t that interested in genealogy) so whilst there could well be people in Ireland who might match, the chances of finding them are not that high. You’ll probably get matches with people in America or Canada before you find one in Ireland. That’s because far higher numbers there have been tested than in Ireland itself.

You are up against the 1800 Irish barrier which can be pretty difficult to pass. No easy answers I am afraid.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I'm another one who has been stuck for decades with my Irish forebears. Mine appear a bit later, first known child born, bp and registered in Northumberland in 1860, but no apparent Eng/Wales marriage for the parents, or sister in law and husband, who I suspect were new immigrants.
All I have is "Galway" - could be city, but I suspect it's county. Unfortunately that county was a stronghold for this particular surname, in many different spelling formats, and the forename "Michael" doesn't help either. Nothing particularly "interesting" has ever shown up, although I try all new databases and avenues for research as soon as I hear of them.

Jay

[Deer243]

I am gradually trying to trace all male line descendants of Patrick (the first one) to see if they know anything but that's proving to be difficult as well, Luke's male line has died out as have quite a few other lines and the descendants that I've contacted so far know even less than me!

I remembered last night that I'd read in a book that sometimes groups of Irish people would all emigrate together and settle in the same area so I did have a look at the surnames of those living in the same house as Luke in 1841: Graham and Conley (along with Burns since several Burns people show up as Godparents etc in later years and and Patrick and another Dillon married Burns people). I looked at these surnames along with Dillon on the Irish Times surname maps to see if there was any correlation and although Graham, Burns and Conley seem to be most prevalent in Northern Ireland it certainly isn't conclusive since the three surnames are found in areas of Southern Ireland as well.

Another idea I tried a while ago was looking for where Luke Dillons have been born in Ireland since there aren't that many Luke Dillons around and Luke is quite a well used name in my Dillons. I searched the Irish Birth Indexes on FMP (since these are complete rather than the parish registers) and got these results since the start of registration in Ireland up to the most recent which was 1956, I included occasions when Luke was a middle name:

Mayo: 8
Dublin: 5
Galway: 2
Carlow: 1
Kildare: 1
Caven: 1
Queens/Laois: 1
Roscommon: 1

This isn't that conclusive though as there seems to be two centres for where Luke Dillons were most common, Roscommon and Dublin but I do keep it in mind in case it turns out to be useful in future.

Finally, there is another family of Dillons that I forgot to mention in my first post. In the 1861 census there is an Ann Dillon aged 42 who was a Widow and born in Ireland living with Patrick's family in Manchester. Presumably she is some sort of relative and so I have tried to find her in other records and believe that I found her living with a Robert Dillon and his family along with his brother George in 1851. In the 1851 census Ann is listed as a visitor and so presumably there is another Dillon family out there waiting to be found. I was able to find Robert's family in 1841 but by 1861 Robert has died and his brother George has vanished without trace. So, unfortunately, although I strongly suspect that they are related to me I've not been able to prove it, I got quite excited at first when I realised that if I could track down a living male-line descendant of Robert or George I could see if they match my Y-DNA but unfortunately his male descendants died without leaving children.

[Janet]

I'm in exactly your position. GGG grandarents born and married in Ireland but came to Yorkshire about 1822. This is well before the famine period of mass emigration and makes it even more difficult.

We had one tiny clue as to where they might have come from .... their first child was born in Ireland and in the 1901 census she gives her place of birth as Drogheda. I trawled through the available Drogheda records looking for a possible baptism or marriage of the parents but have not, so far, been successful. The writing is very hard to read and the names Latinised in various fairly random ways, so that makes it even more uncertain if the right record is found.
Good luck in your search!
Anne

Anne,

it may be that you have the Parish of Drogheda, but unfortunately your ancestor has not given actual place of birth, which may be one of the many townlands, and that could be anything from several miles in all directions of Drogheda. Drogheda has always been a big place. I had a similar problem wnen my Great GrandParents married Fermoy and came to England 1865. All I could find on Census was County Cork. I spent years looking for records in Fermoy( as I had marriage certificate) a very large Town, without any luck, until the 1901 Census showed the townland of Kilworth, which is actually a small army town about 5 miles North of Fermoy and made sense as Grt G'father was an English Sergeant in the army. I was very lucky, but I suppose you have tried the recent FMP digitised records and no I have not had any luck with these either!! You may have to do what we did and have a holiday there and go around all the relevant churches asking cap in hand!! It may not be too daunting to do that because not so many Catholic churches were built before 1822, most were built after 1830, unless it is a protestant family you have.

Janet

[vera2013]

Did you follow the two relatives in the 1891 with Patrick and Ann

Luke Graham 19 App Smith and Elizabeth Carr 64 Charwoman

Luke appears to be Luke Dillon Graham who is the son of David Graham and Barbara Dillon. Had hoped this Barbara was the child of another of Patrick and Luke's brothers but seems more likely she belongs to Luke.
They did have a child who died named Barbara so maybe another child was named after her or took on the name.

Haven't looked at Elizabeth Carr yet. Will do to see what she turns up.

However as has been said even if you kind find an area they were born in (which is still good) finding the parents may never be possible but can't yet be ruled out.

My great grandmother is recorded only once as having been born in Co Armagh but despite a thorough search by Elwyn, I have not yet been able to pinpoint her parents. She did not appear to have any relatives in the UK. However, ever the optimist some records may yet turn up in the areas that Elwyn found most likely.

Vera

[Janet]

Deer243,

One of the main problems is with your list of possibles is that not all the records are on the database!! Recently looking for Neill/Neale/Martley/Markley in Tipperary through the digitised version of RC Baptisms and Marriages now on FMP the main ones that I had found in Thurles through my own research are not on the database!! I found a few others unknown though cannot pin them to my family. So it looks as though I am in possession of a load of Thurles records, unknown by anyone else!! Now I think all these records are still with the Heritage Societies which records were passed straight to the Heritage Societies by the various RC churches in the Diocese of Cashel and Emily which covers all Co Tipperary and some of Co Limerick! These records may never have been passed over to Dublin National Library. I also know that many of the Fermoy C Cork records have never been passed on to Dublin NL, because when I was researching at Dublin NL for Kilworth, I found nothing! I was lucky enough to find an 1841 Census fragment for Kilworth, which gave me a possible clue to my family, which I then was able to follow up with a letter to the parish priest, which took me back another generation, but those records have not been found on the FMP database either. My OH also had a similar problem with Sullivan in County Cork and these also are not on the database, so I reckon there are many thousands of records still with the churches, never having been passed on to Dublin NL!!

Janet

[Deer243]

Did you follow the two relatives in the 1891 with Patrick and Ann

Luke appears to be Luke Dillon Graham who is the son of David Graham and Barbara Dillon. Had hoped this Barbara was the child of another of Patrick and Luke's brothers but seems more likely she belongs to Luke.
They did have a child who died named Barbara so maybe another child was named after her or took on the name.

Vera

Yes, I've gone down this route before, what you said is right, Luke Dillon Graham was the son David and Barbara as you said and Barbara was the daughter of Luke Dillon. A family of Grahams were living with Luke Dillon in 1841, I've not researched the Grahams back enough to check but I strongly suspect that they are the same Grahams.

However as has been said even if you kind find an area they were born in (which is still good) finding the parents may never be possible but can't yet be ruled out.

Vera

[Deer243]

Unfortunately Vera, I don't even know a rough area! Whenever a place of birth is mentioned, be it on census, baptism or BMD certificates Ireland is all it says, I've looked at old gravestones as well on the chance that a place of birth was stated (although I've not found Luke's grave yet).

[Deer243]

Deer243,

One of the main problems is with your list of possibles is that not all the records are on the database!!

Janet

I know, it's incredibly frustrating, and there's always the slim possibility as well that a family might have been CoE originally and then converted at some point just to be confusing (although I don't think this happened).

I don't suppose you know if there's any chance that in future more records will be discovered, perhaps even some forgotten copies that were made of the censuses destroyed in the 1922 fire? The 1821 census would be absolutely perfect for me if by some miracle a copy is ever discovered!:D

Is there a list of parish records which aren't online but which can be searched if you say write to the Church or something like that?

[margaretmarch]

I know, it's incredibly frustrating, and there's always the slim possibility as well that a family might have been CoE originally and then converted at some point just to be confusing (although I don't think this happened).

I don't suppose you know if there's any chance that in future more records will be discovered, perhaps even some forgotten copies that were made of the censuses destroyed in the 1922 fire? The 1821 census would be absolutely perfect for me if by some miracle a copy is ever discovered!:D

Is there a list of parish records which aren't online but which can be searched if you say write to the Church or something like that?

I don't think there was a census for 1821 and they only start in 1841 for England Wales and Scotland. I think there was a census of sorts in 1831 but no names were taken so no help to us!

Margaret

[Deer243]

The Irish were ahead of the game!

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/pre1901.html

The first attempt at a census was apparently in 1813 but 1821 was the first successful one.

[Janet]

Is there a list of parish records which aren't online but which can be searched if you say write to the Church or something like that?

Yes, that is precisely where some/all the Kilworth and Thurles records are, still with the churches! They have their own registers, some have transcripts as Thurles has/had! The only but is that you need to know the townland and then the church/s!!

When the diocese of Cashel and Emly were closed to the public, I went to the main church in Thurles and was allowed to look at the registers, not the originals, but the transcripts. I was able to obtain all Neill/Neale and some variants as well as Martley/Markley Baptisms and Marriages with all sponsors and witnesses. I can only fit a very few into my family tree, but I have all thes people! I did not have time to collect any possible O'Neill and went back a couple of years later, after the records were made available to Dublin NL, to be told the records were no longer accessible at Thurles. Later I tried Dublin NL without any luck and have since heard these records seemed to have been passed to the Brien Boru Heritage Centre. I was and still am looking for a marriage of Great by 2 grandparents around 1820 so I armed myself with a list of relevant RC churches open around 1820 and did a 3/6 mile search around Thurles for a possible marriage, visiting about ten churches without any luck. I had no time to go further but according to FMP, this marriage and two baptisms I am looking for are not on the Dublin N Library database, so I may now have no choice but to pay the Heritage Centre to see if they can find the missing link! I am getting to the stage now where I do not go to Ireland much these days, and the search is getting harder for me!! My OH cannot find many of his either in the Wexford area because many records were burnt and not sent to Dublin so the Dublin NL records now oline through Dublin Nl/FMP and ancestry are bittersweet with so many gaps! How many other Irish counties are in this position??

Janet

[Janet]

The Irish were ahead of the game!

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/pre1901.html

The first attempt at a census was apparently in 1813 but 1821 was the first successful one.

You are correct though sadly most were destroyed but a careful look at the fragments that are left may yield a clue as did my fragment 1841 Kilworth census found online! But they are shots in the dark and you do have to be lucky!

One other place worth trying are the Griffiths Valuation full records which always give the Lessor and you may be able to trace some records through the landowners but you have to know where they are!! We were lucky in Wexford to know my OH's farm records were with the Earl of Courtown, which records are kept at Trinity College in Dublin. We went there and unearthed a few extra records when we looked through these Courtown records for the late 1700's and early 1800's, but we had to book a time and a date and had to prove we were suitable people to be researching! I have also discovered similar records for the Mathews landowners from Thurles in Cardiff! I have not got there yet to research but this may be worth trying.

Janet

[Deer243]

I've had a look at Griffiths valuations and the Tithe Applotments as well but with no success because as you said I need to know at least an area first!