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  • Freedom of Information Act

    Can you find where a person is living in the 1939 Register under the FOI act. She would now be about 97-98 years of age if still living.

    If so what information do you have to provide?

    How realistic can we be of getting a result?

    Unfortunately we only have an approximate dob - with many possibilities narrowed down to 6 good ones but only 3 death registrations (1 deaths certificate obtained so far).

    We've had two closed households opened up but no-one of her name is living there.

    Can we get a result using the FOI or would it be better to keep getting different households opened up until we find one with a lady of the right name living there? Then using any death certificates to try and match the date of birth to open it up.

    All we really want is her dob so that we know who she is from a large database of ladies with same name.
    Last edited by JBee; 22-01-16, 13:33.



    Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

  • #2
    To apply under the Freedom of Information Act costs £25. As with FMP you have to know First names, Last name, Gender, Year of birth, County they were living in at the time of the 1939 Register.
    The £25 is non-returnable whether the GRO find a result or not.

    Cheers
    Guy

    PS you also have to send a copy of the Death Certificate
    Last edited by Guy; 22-01-16, 14:36. Reason: Added a PS
    Guy passed away October 2022

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Guy

      Well we have:

      1. The first name ) unfortunately rather a common first and surname.
      2. Surname )
      3. Gender
      4. dob's of 6 very good possibles (plus a database of quite a few more)
      5. year of birth 1919 or 1920
      6. living in Hertfordshire
      7. Death certificate for one of the possibles plus references for 2 others so can get them - with the other 3 possibles haven't found deaths references for them.



      Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

      Comment


      • #4
        JBee

        Sorry to be negative, but someone's date of birth is actually private while they are still alive and does not come under the FOI. You would have to prove she is dead and you would then probably know her date of birth anyway.

        OC

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
          JBee

          Sorry to be negative, but someone's date of birth is actually private while they are still alive and does not come under the FOI. You would have to prove she is dead and you would then probably know her date of birth anyway.

          OC
          No it's not the date of birth of every person born in the UK is public and anyone in the world may purcase a copy of the relevant birth certificate for whatever reason they want.

          There is no protection for a persons date of birth under the Data Protection Act either as it is exempt data.
          It comes under- Data Protection Act 1998 c. 29Part IV (Exemptions)

          Section 34 Information available to the public by or under enactment.

          Cheers
          Guy
          Guy passed away October 2022

          Comment


          • #6
            OC

            We have the dob and dod of 3 of the possibles - but don't have a household to compare them with.

            Looks like it may have to be a trawl of all the closed entries in the area until we get a name hit.

            Will I be able to open up all the households with a closed entry with my world fmp sub? and then ask them to match our death certificate?



            Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JBee View Post
              Thanks Guy

              Well we have:

              1. The first name ) unfortunately rather a common first and surname.
              2. Surname )
              3. Gender
              4. dob's of 6 very good possibles (plus a database of quite a few more)
              5. year of birth 1919 or 1920
              6. living in Hertfordshire
              7. Death certificate for one of the possibles plus references for 2 others so can get them - with the other 3 possibles haven't found deaths references for them.
              I imagine many people with subscriptions will be applying to FMP from February 16th to have records opened for free since they will not have to pay to view the record first.
              Cheers
              Guy
              Guy passed away October 2022

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes I think they will Guy.

                Probably site will crash for the first few days.

                As regards my own genealogy in the 1939 register I wasn't particularly bothered about getting my family's households opened up as I saw the previews and could tell who was living there, so perhaps the demand wasn't as good as they hoped.

                However I will be waiting impatiently for the 1921 census.



                Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

                Comment


                • #9
                  Guy

                  I beg to differ. The fact that I was born, and the quarter I was born in, and my mother's maiden name, are available FREEin the GRO indexes (so therefore in the public domain). If you want to know my exact date of birth you will have to BUY the birth certificate. The fact that you have to buy it makes it unlikely that anyone except the obsessionally nosey will access that detail.

                  However, back to the original question. Whether or not a person's birth date is private or not, neither FMP nor TNA are interested in helping anyone to find the person they are looking for, so I think it will be a dogged (and expensive) search, person by person, trying to prove whether they are dead or alive. (I know which search you are undertaking, btw and have every sympathy).

                  OC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                    Guy

                    I beg to differ. The fact that I was born, and the quarter I was born in, and my mother's maiden name, are available FREEin the GRO indexes (so therefore in the public domain). If you want to know my exact date of birth you will have to BUY the birth certificate. The fact that you have to buy it makes it unlikely that anyone except the obsessionally nosey will access that detail.
                    To be pedantic they are not in the public domain they are in the public arena (Public Domain has a specific legal meaning in the UK). That does not make your date of birth private.
                    It just means it costs money to purchase the certificate.

                    This actually identifies an anomaly that many family historians have been trying to rectify for many years.
                    The register entries of people born over 100 years ago are only accessible buy buying a certificate but the register entries of people born yesterday or even last week are available free of charge to anyone who bothers to visit the register office and look in the register.

                    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                    However, back to the original question. Whether or not a person's birth date is private or not, neither FMP nor TNA are interested in helping anyone to find the person they are looking for, so I think it will be a dogged (and expensive) search, person by person, trying to prove whether they are dead or alive. (I know which search you are undertaking, btw and have every sympathy).

                    OC
                    I would certainly agree with you to some extent on this last point OC, but in their defence both the National Archives & Findmypast will help as long as they are provided with information that allows them to quickly find the relevant person.
                    Neither have the resources to search for hours in response to one request.
                    Such searches are not free as they take time and staff time is costly for any business.

                    Cheers
                    Guy
                    Guy passed away October 2022

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, I meant that neither FMP nor TNA has any interest in this specific type of search and will not do anything to make it easier. I am sure that their official stance would be that a specialist agency has to be used.

                      We have had this discussion before, Guy. It would take so much effort to be allowed to see the registers in my Register Office AND, I am in no doubt, would cost the usual research fee (£40 an hour in my county). Enough to put nearly everyone off.

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In the register office I worked in, you would not get to see the original registers at all, the early ones are now quite fragile. You could pay the statutory fee (£18) to search through the local indexes, although in my time there I don't think anyone ever did.
                        Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                        Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
                          In the register office I worked in, you would not get to see the original registers at all, the early ones are now quite fragile. You could pay the statutory fee (£18) to search through the local indexes, although in my time there I don't think anyone ever did.
                          I take it you are referring to the registers held by the Superintendent Registrar rather than the local register.

                          It is a basic legal requirement that I had clarified a few years ago by the Registrar General that all registers held by a Registrar may be searched on demand by a member of public attending a Register Office.

                          No fee is payable for searches in registers of births, deaths and marriages kept under the Marriage Act 1949 and the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953, held by Registrars, the power to charge such a fee having been repealed by the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Fees) Order 1968, SI 1968/1242, art 4(1), Sch 2.

                          In addition case law provides that members of the public have a right to make a handwritten copy of any entry from such a register rather than purchase a certificate.

                          Incidentally it was not until 1974 that the General Registrar stopped the public viewing and taking notes from registers held by superintendent registrars.
                          This was stopped because insurance companies were using the facilities instead of paying for certificates

                          Cheers
                          Guy
                          Last edited by Guy; 23-01-16, 12:14.
                          Guy passed away October 2022

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Guy View Post
                            I take it you are referring to the registers held by the Superintendent Registrar rather than the local register.
                            Not quite sure what distinction you are making there ?

                            However, what the law says and how it is applied can be different things !


                            The fee I am referring to is the fee for a general search of the index (up to 6 hours) which is still very much available and listed on the GRO statutory fee lists ( under S.31(2)(a), B&D Regn Act 1953; S.64(2)(a), Mge Act 1949)
                            Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                            Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I agree totally with what Antony says - what the law is and how it is applied are two very different things. My county (Cornwall) says on its website

                              "unfortunately you cannot search the registers in person".

                              There is provision for the registrar to search the registers for you, but at £40 an hour research fee. That effectively cuts out any form of browsing.

                              I am quite prepared to believe that this statement is actually illegal. However, I doubt I would live long enough to challenge it, nor would I have the means to challenge it in court.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                OC as Guy says the public haven't been allowed to view the original registers for a long time but there is an existing (for the £18 charge) right to access the local indexes. Offering a "research" service isn't something I have heard of any offices doing before, and I'm not sure where that sits legally.
                                Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                                Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Sorry, sloppy wording on my part. Research fee is not the right expression. They mean the standard research fees apply, such as would be required if you wanted searches done in the County Records Office. I am nearly sure that they wouldn't undertake any detailed research of current/past registers and in fact it says on the website that "we cannot help with family history research" but gives a few other sources.

                                  Certainly in my area, it is a cost cutting exercise first and foremost as most of the local ROs are either closed permanently or only open by appointment.

                                  It would have been late 70s I think, when I last browsed registers - under the eye of the Registrar or his clerk. I was told this had stopped because someone had defaced a register.

                                  I have certainly had unstinting help since then, certainly in the last five or so years, from local registrars (mainly Lancashire) and have never had to pay a penny for that help. Those days are gone, of course, and I think they should be - why should the public purse be used to help me in what is after all, only a hobby at the end of the day.

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Early 80's, one of superintendent registrars local to my area of research used to help me out with marriages, as these were indexed by church. I usually went in with a list of several marriage certs I wanted to buy and she would find one and put it before me, and then go off to search for the next, saying something like "I don't think this is the one you want, but you'd better have a look whilst I find the next one." I used to buy copies of about half the marriages on my wanted list and made quick notes on the venues of the others so that I could go to the CRO and make transcriptions.
                                    Jay
                                    Janet in Yorkshire



                                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Guy View Post
                                      I take it you are referring to the registers held by the Superintendent Registrar rather than the local register.
                                      First I should apologise for my atrocious spelling I should have written Registrar and not register changes the whole meaning though I did not make mistake later in my posting, so my intention should have been clear.

                                      Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
                                      Not quite sure what distinction you are making there ?

                                      However, what the law says and how it is applied can be different things !

                                      The fee I am referring to is the fee for a general search of the index (up to 6 hours) which is still very much available and listed on the GRO statutory fee lists ( under S.31(2)(a), B&D Regn Act 1953; S.64(2)(a), Mge Act 1949)
                                      That fee is for a general search at the Superintendent Registrar’s office in registers held by him/her.
                                      In the Births & Deaths Act 1953 there were originally two fees that could be charged for searches the general search you quote specified in B&D Regn Act 1953; S.31(2)(a) and the particular search specified in B&D Regn Act 1953; S.31(2)(b) and in a similar manner there were searches under the Marriage Act 1949 S.64(2)(a) and S.64(2)(b) which also covered general searches and particular searches.

                                      In both cases the fees for particular searches were repealed by the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Fees) Order 1968, SI 1968/1242, art 4(1), Sch 2.


                                      Fees for searches in registers held by Registrars were repealed by the 1968 SI, above.
                                      In a similar manner for searches in registers held by Registrar General were repealed by the 1968 SI.

                                      The Registrar deals with the current Births, Marriages and Deaths and once the current register is full it is passed to the Superintendent Registrar for keeping.
                                      Even though these may be in the same building and even housed in the same room there is a distinction in law between the two facilities.

                                      Cheers
                                      Guy
                                      Guy passed away October 2022

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                        I have certainly had unstinting help since then, certainly in the last five or so years, from local registrars (mainly Lancashire) and have never had to pay a penny for that help. Those days are gone, of course, and I think they should be - why should the public purse be used to help me in what is after all, only a hobby at the end of the day.

                                        OC
                                        The reason why they should is because that is the main reason why civil registers were instigated by Parliament.
                                        If you read the Hansard archives which record the deabates about creating the civil register you will see -


                                        (this is just one of the many debates about forming a civil registration system)

                                        "To judge of the inconveniences of the present system, suppose, in a case of pedigree, it was necessary to prove the birth of a person born seventy years ago. All the witnesses conversant of the fact, were probably dead; and if the inquiring parties did not know the county and parish where the child was born, they had to hunt through upwards of 10,000 parish registers; and, failing in this search, their only resource was, in family Bibles and prayer-books, always secondary, and sometimes not admissible, evidence. He would state to the House the general means by which he proposed to remove these inconveniences. He did not propose to interfere with the baptismal registers, but to establish a purely civil registration of births, to be kept by a recognized officer, and to be open for general inspection on the payment of a small fee. "

                                        Cheers
                                        Guy
                                        Guy passed away October 2022

                                        Comment

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