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Help determining exactly who my great-grandmother was

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  • Help determining exactly who my great-grandmother was

    Hi all,

    Having made excellent progress with my family tree, I am nonetheless a little stumped as to exactly who my great-grandmother was, as information we have on her is limited and I am still no closer to finding exact birth and death dates. Information I've found on other people's online family trees seems suspect when studied in any detail, and so I thought I'd ask for your help rather than just 'go with the flow' and make assumptions.

    Her details on her marriage certificate to my great-grandfather are:

    Name: Charlotte Ellen SMITH
    Age: 18
    Condition: Spinster
    Profession: -
    Residence: Arthur Road
    Father's name: Thomas SMITH
    Father's profession: General Dealer [this is not 100% clear but looks about right]

    She married Frederick Syer EIGHTEEN at St. John's Church, Reading on 19/06/1886.

    Curiously, on my grandfather's marriage certificate to my grandmother, he has put his mother's name as Ellen Charlotte EIGHTEEN, rather than Charlotte Ellen. This may be important, I don't know.

    There is a January 1923 death certificate index for her under the name Charlotte E L EIGHTEEN, but it just gives her birth as 'about 1870' and doesn't give an exact date of death. I believe the L is for either Louise or Louisa; you will find references to this on public family trees on Ancestry, and she had a daughter named Vera Ellen Louise EIGHTEEN.

    I've scoured Ancestry for Charlotte Ellens, Ellen Charlottes and variations thereof, but I've not been able to locate anyone I believe to be the right candidate. I've seen mentions of a Fortunatus SMITH who lived in Reading and had a daughter named Charlotte A SMITH, but I believe the link to be erroneous. I've checked census records for 1871 and 1881, but again can't seem to find a convincing Charlotte Ellen SMITH, and of course after 1891 she appears as Charlotte Ellen EIGHTEEN and lives with Frederick Syer, which is fine and obviously that's her.

    I did find a school admission record for a Charlotte SMITH at one of the same schools as some of the EIGHTEEN children went to, but her birthday was 15/10/1870 and the father's name was Wm. [sic] which I think is William, so we can probably rule her out.

    If any of you kind folks wouldn't mind doing a bit of research and trying to help me pin down the right Charlotte Ellen then I'd be hugely grateful. I suppose the obvious answer would be to just order a copy of her death certificate, but I'm not sure it would give her date of birth or much useful information there besides.

    Do you have any advice for me? I'm fairly new to genealogy and have been making surprisingly good progress so far, but every so often I do seem to hit a brick wall.
    Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
    Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
    Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

  • #2
    Hi James
    Charlotte Ellen Eighteen was buried on the 19th January 1923 at Reading, London Road Cemetery age 53.
    Moggie

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    • #3
      Dates of birth aren't listed on death certs until 1969. You will need to buy the cert for exact dates.
      I wouldn't worry about the names being reversed. It's quite common.
      Last edited by Margaret in Burton; 23-09-15, 17:27.

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      • #4
        Thanks for clearing that up. I don't remember my grandfather (d. 1965) having his birth date on his death certificate, so that makes sense.

        I don't mind buying a birth certificate for Charlotte Ellen.... if I can find the right one.
        Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
        Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
        Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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        • #5
          in 1891 she says she was born in 1859 Reading Berks?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
            in 1891 she says she was born in 1859 Reading Berks?
            She was 18 in June 1886, when she married Frederick Syer. She died in 1923, age ~53.
            Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
            Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
            Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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            • #7
              maybes
              Charlotte Smith 1st quarter 1858 Wantage Berkshire 2c 300
              Charlotte Smith 3rd quarter 1861 Wantage Berkshire 2c 275

              James do you know for sure how old she was on the marriage ?
              Last edited by Guest; 23-09-15, 17:37.

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              • #8
                No, and I have toyed with the idea that she lied about her age, but I obviously can't prove that and I really don't have much to go on at this point. I'm just trying to find a plausible candidate for a birth certificate.
                Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
                Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
                Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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                • #9
                  Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate?
                  Jackie

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Night Owl View Post
                    Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate?
                    John and Sophia Eighteen, Frederick's brother and his wife.
                    Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
                    Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
                    Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by James18 View Post
                      John and Sophia Eighteen, Frederick's brother and his wife.
                      Oh well not much help there then :(
                      Jackie

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In 1901 and 1911 she says she's 31 then 41 born in Reading, Berks. Either she preferred to stay young or she was even younger than she said on her marriage.

                        And there is a Charlotte Smith daughter of Fortunatus Smith, born Reading 1870, living in Kings Langley in 1881.
                        Anne
                        Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 23-09-15, 19:43.

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                        • #13
                          Hmmmm. There's only one Charlotte born in Reading on FreeBMD in the timescale. Charlotte Ada Smith Q1 1870. No Ellen Charlotte.

                          Oh dear. In 1871 the Charlotte who is Fortunatus's daughter is Charlotte A Smith, so probably not the right one.
                          Anne
                          Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 23-09-15, 19:54.

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                          • #14
                            Yep, Fortunas' daughter is a red herring. I see a number of people have linked them on public family trees, and I believe wrongly so.

                            See here for current theory: http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/f...t=23033&page=2

                            Thoughts?
                            Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
                            Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
                            Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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                            • #15
                              Yes, I am inclined to think that the 1871 census mentioned on that link is the right family. You'd need to do some more investigating. It does look as though her birth went unregistered, unfortunately.
                              I have been quite surprised at hoe few choices of Smiths the search comes down to when you give all the criteria. Did several searches with no surname for Charlotte and Ellen born in Reading with a father Thomas and there are not many.
                              Interesting how easily I went straight to Charlotte Ada Smith by mistake .... you can see how those Ancestry trees are in error.
                              Anne

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                              • #16
                                Indeed, I too was surprised at how few search results there were given how common both names are. It definitely says Thomas Smith on her marriage certificate, so I'm going to rule out Fortunas Smith, which seems to be Charlotte Ada Smith's father. I get the feeling that a lot of people just put the details they know in to their family tree, get a load of the same answers come up as suggestions and just assume they're all right, so follow the trend.

                                Sadly, I tend to agree that it's looking like her birth wasn't registered, only the later baptism. I suppose I'll have to order a copy of her death certificate and see where we go from there.

                                At the very least, that should clarify her full name at the time of her death.
                                Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
                                Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
                                Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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                                • #18
                                  Yes, and several other siblings were baptized at the same time I believe.

                                  As I said on the Genealogy Forum, I suspect she was born Ellen Smith c1869 and Charlotte was added as a baptismal name in 1876. Just a hunch.
                                  Eighteen -- Hadleigh, Suffolk; Reading, Berkshire
                                  Hendry -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire
                                  Wylie -- Ballymena, Antrim; Glasgow, Lanarkshire

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                                  • #19
                                    seeing as the bap was in St Marys and parents were Thomas and Mary Smith ,this census record for 1871 in St Marys shows parents Thomas and Mary Smith and Thomas is a Greengrocer with a daughter Ellen born 1870 in Berkshire Reading
                                    Last edited by Guest; 23-09-15, 21:41.

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