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More questions than answers - please help with this conundrum

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  • More questions than answers - please help with this conundrum

    Morning everyone

    I would be really grateful if you would give me your advice and tell me where you would look next. I have been stuck on this for months and was hoping my latest find was the answer but this latest death cert only provided me with more confusion and not answers.

    My Great Grandfather Edward John Hall stated on his WWI service records that he was born in the year 1878, but the London England School admissions and discharges shows 7 Feb 1883, his marriage cert and census up until 1911 would also appear to put him around 1883 as well.

    His marriage cert states Henry Lofthouse Hall as his father, but, I do not believe he is. I applied for a birth cert for a Edward Hall with the father Henry Hall from 1878 to 1883 for the area Bloomsbury which is what he states on the census returns as his place of birth and nothing.

    When I tracked down the burial record for Henry Lofthouse Hall (died 24 Dec 1901), he is buried with a Mary Ann Lofthouse Hall AKA Hampson. I applied for Mary Ann's death cert and it arrived last week. She died 13 June 1923 in Tooting Bec Mental Hospital and in the surname column it says Mary Ann Lofthouse Hall or Hampson and in the Occupation column it says 6 Linver Road, Fulham wife of James Hampson. I am confused.

    Now a while ago, I had found a birth record and census for a Michael Hampson which matched my Great Grandfathers brother Michael, with a mother Mary Ann Mcgee and father James Hampson in Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland with the same dob as I found on the school records and I was leaning towards this being the Mary Ann and Michael I was looking for.

    I didn't expect Mary Ann's death cert to show she was still the wife of James Hampson but I had always thought Mary Ann and Henry were never married because I could find no trace of a marriage record. The birth I found for Michael made me wonder if Henry was also not the father of Edward. I checked BMD records for the years 1878-1884 and found 13 Edward Hampson records but none for Bloomsbury. I have also ran searches for births for Edward Hampson with a mother Mary Mcgee and father James Hampson and I am still coming up blank.

    The earliest census I find Henry and Mary is 1891. Henry was married previously to a Louisa Poulain De Bois Angers and she died July 1882 and therefore I think this also leads me to believe Louisa and Henry was not Edward's parents either.

    I have to be missing something somewhere, just not sure if it is staring me in the face and I am overlooking it or I am looking totally in the wrong place.

    I would appreciate some guidance.
    Mirry

    Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

  • #2
    Have you looked to see where records for Tooting Bec Asylum are held? They may be at the London Metropolitan Archives. These sometimes hold a lot of family information, and may help you sort out who was who.
    Good luck.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sorry, I just read the dates again. If Henry died in 1901, maybe Mary married Mr Hampson after this?

      Comment


      • #4
        I found a marriage record for 1876 for Mary Ann Mcgee and James Hampson in Greenock, Renfrew, but have never found a divorce record. I also checked to see if they did in fact re-marry and still cannot find anything. Not sure whether she just upped and left James and never filed for divorce for whatever reason and as Henry was previously married to the daughter of a countess, wondered if he never remarried as he would dis-inherit something? I keep coming up with more questions than answers at this point.
        Mirry

        Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mirrytindle View Post
          Morning everyone

          I would be really grateful if you would give me your advice and tell me where you would look next. I have been stuck on this for months and was hoping my latest find was the answer but this latest death cert only provided me with more confusion and not answers.


          His marriage cert states Henry Lofthouse Hall as his father, but, I do not believe he is. I applied for a birth cert for a Edward Hall with the father Henry Hall from 1878 to 1883 for the area Bloomsbury which is what he states on the census returns as his place of birth and nothing.


          The earliest census I find Henry and Mary is 1891. Henry was married previously to a Louisa Poulain De Bois Angers and she died July 1882 and therefore I think this also leads me to believe Louisa and Henry was not Edward's parents either.

          I have to be missing something somewhere, just not sure if it is staring me in the face and I am overlooking it or I am looking totally in the wrong place.

          I would appreciate some guidance.
          *My Great Grandfather Edward John Hall stated on his WWI service records that he was born in the year 1878, but the London England School admissions and discharges shows 7 Feb 1883, his marriage cert and census up until 1911 would also appear to put him around 1883 as well.

          it wasn't uncommon for someone to lie about their age in order to join up, I believe it was quite common in fact

          *When I tracked down the burial record for Henry Lofthouse Hall (died 24 Dec 1901), he is buried with a Mary Ann Lofthouse Hall AKA Hampson. I applied for Mary Ann's death cert and it arrived last week. She died 13 June 1923 in Tooting Bec Mental Hospital and in the surname column it says Mary Ann Lofthouse Hall or Hampson and in the Occupation column it says 6 Linver Road, Fulham wife of James Hampson. I am confused.

          to me this says that she was still legally married to James even though she was having/or had relations with Henry, so even though she may have used the surname of Hall, she was, in fact Mary Ann Hampson

          *Now a while ago, I had found a birth record and census for a Michael Hampson which matched my Great Grandfathers brother Michael, with a mother Mary Ann Mcgee and father James Hampson in Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland with the same dob as I found on the school records and I was leaning towards this being the Mary Ann and Michael I was looking for.

          does Michael's birth cert state that James is the father?


          *I didn't expect Mary Ann's death cert to show she was still the wife of James Hampson but I had always thought Mary Ann and Henry were never married because I could find no trace of a marriage record. The birth I found for Michael made me wonder if Henry was also not the father of Edward. I checked BMD records for the years 1878-1884 and found 13 Edward Hampson records but none for Bloomsbury. I have also ran searches for births for Edward Hampson with a mother Mary Mcgee and father James Hampson and I am still coming up blank.

          maybe Edward was born elsewhere but moved to Bloomsbury early on have you tried looking for Edward with mother Mary and no fathers details? might be he had a different father to Michael's?
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, Michael's birth cert shows James Hampson as the father. I have tried searching for Edward with the mothers details only and nothing comes up in the UK, Ireland or Scotland.
            Mirry

            Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mirrytindle View Post
              Yes, Michael's birth cert shows James Hampson as the father. I have tried searching for Edward with the mothers details only and nothing comes up in the UK, Ireland or Scotland.
              where are looking please? Ancestry?FMP?
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              .......I find dead people

              Comment


              • #8
                hmmn:

                Name: Edward John Hall
                Registration Year: 1883
                Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
                Registration district: Tonbridge
                Inferred County: Kent
                Volume: 2a
                Page: 643

                ------------------------------------------------------

                Name: Edward John Hill
                Registration Year: 1883
                Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
                Registration district: Kingston
                Inferred County: Surrey
                Volume: 2a
                Page: 307

                -----------------------------------------------


                Name: Edward John Hall
                Registration Year: 1884
                Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
                Registration district: Windsor
                Inferred County: Berkshire
                Volume: 2c
                Page: 451

                wouldn't think that it is this one either, as the registration would be quite late!

                Name: Edward John Hall
                Registration Year: 1882
                Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
                Registration district: Hitchin
                Inferred County: Hertfordshire
                Volume: 3a
                Page: 435

                NOT THIS ONE


                not sure that these will help, but might be a starting point to see if you can find/discount any of them in the census...
                Last edited by Darksecretz; 21-09-15, 20:34.
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  Im looking on ancestry, I dont have a subscription to FMP unfortunately
                  Mirry

                  Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have Edward John in the 1891 census through to 1911 census. If Henry was his father and had the last name Hall, then Henry was having an affair with Mary Ann as his first wife was still alive. The earliest I can find Henry and Mary together is on the 1891 census so am not sure when they met. I have the cert for Edward Hall born Hitchin and that was not him. I have electoral roll registers for Henry Hall for the years surrounding Edwards birth and these are not Tonbridge or Windsor. If he was born a Hampson I have 13 to choose from but I have to narrow down the list as I cant apply for all 13 birth certs, but nothing is jumping out at me. I cannot even track James Hampson at this point.
                    Mirry

                    Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mirrytindle View Post
                      I have Edward John in the 1891 census through to 1911 census. If Henry was his father and had the last name Hall, then Henry was having an affair with Mary Ann as his first wife was still alive. The earliest I can find Henry and Mary together is on the 1891 census so am not sure when they met. I have the cert for Edward Hall born Hitchin and that was not him. I have electoral roll registers for Henry Hall for the years surrounding Edwards birth and these are not Tonbridge or Windsor. If he was born a Hampson I have 13 to choose from but I have to narrow down the list as I cant apply for all 13 birth certs, but nothing is jumping out at me. I cannot even track James Hampson at this point.
                      I know what you mean, I have been looking and there is a James Hampson in Canada, but not sure at this moment whether he is the one you are after!

                      I found Edward and Mary in 1891/1901 but couldn't spot them in 1911, Michael also seem to be a little elusive too.

                      maybe you could try sending a covering letter/email to the relevant Register office and explain the situation and you think that the mothers maiden name will be Mcgee, do you think that may work?

                      do you also know where Henry was prior to 1891 with his wife?
                      Julie
                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                      .......I find dead people

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The earliest census I find Henry and Mary is 1891. Henry was married previously to a Louisa Poulain De Bois Angers and she died July 1882 and therefore I think this also leads me to believe Louisa and Henry was not Edward's parents either.
                        did either of them leave a will? I couldn't spot anything.

                        I have looked through the previous census for Henry & Louisa and it doesn't look like they had any children at all, maybe Henry was infertile?
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have Edward and his wife and children in Norwich in 1911 and Michael is under Hall with his wife in London. As for Mary, I cannot find her anywhere after 1901 when Henry died. Not sure when she went into Tooting Bec, but I checked with LMA and they do not have the records for the time period I want and on the National Archives it says nothing survived prior to 1970 which I am hoping is a big fat lie as I need those records, it may give me a clue.

                          I have come up with so many scenarios for these people, some completely wild and off the wall, which I guess you can when you cannot find them and you are left to your own imagination, but seriously, you cannot just disappear. I appreciate you looking for me, but I am at a loss and to where to go next. I've never had this much trouble so early on in a tree before.
                          Mirry

                          Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just a thought. If her death cert says wife of James Hampson, does that mean he is still alive otherwise it would say wife of James Hampson (deceased)?
                            Mirry

                            Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is driving me bonkers. Why, if the death cert says wife of James Hampson instead of partner of Henry Hall, why was she buried with Henry Hall if James was still alive and they were possibly now reconnected.
                              Mirry

                              Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Mirrytindle View Post
                                Just a thought. If her death cert says wife of James Hampson, does that mean he is still alive otherwise it would say wife of James Hampson (deceased)?
                                I just noticed there is an A- under the wife of James Hampson, does this mean Alive?
                                Mirry

                                Genealogy……. It’s not the size of the tree that matters, It’s the quality of the nuts you find on there

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Regarding the burial, I do have an example in my own family of: husband, wife and daughter. Wife dies, husband remarried, has two sons. Years later, husband dies and is buried with first wife as a family plot had been purchased at the time of her death. This may have happened here.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Mirrytindle View Post
                                    Just a thought. If her death cert says wife of James Hampson, does that mean he is still alive otherwise it would say wife of James Hampson (deceased)?
                                    her cert states she was wife of James, which she was, whether he was still alive or not is anyone's guess, the information on the cert is only as good as the person that was giving it I'm afraid.
                                    Julie
                                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                    .......I find dead people

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      If the informant knew he was dead (or even thought he was dead) it would say "widow of James Hampson". As Julie says, the information is onlyas good as the informant's knowledge.

                                      OC

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Mirrytindle View Post
                                        This is driving me bonkers. Why, if the death cert says wife of James Hampson instead of partner of Henry Hall, why was she buried with Henry Hall if James was still alive and they were possibly now reconnected.
                                        my own great grandmother married and her husband he died early on in the marriage, she married again and when she died some 20yrs later her then husband had her buried with her first husband. It could be simply that she expressed that she wanted to be buried with Henry, or whoever organised the burial knew that she had lived with Henry for x amount of years [and thought that they were married?] so they were buried together?

                                        praps Edward thought that his mum deserved to be with Henry after all he was the only father that he knew [with James being an absent father]
                                        Julie
                                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                        .......I find dead people

                                        Comment

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