Elizabeth (Ellen) ROBERTSON b ca 1835. (Lanarkshire)

[rds60h]

Robertson about 1820's to present Ayrshire, Scotland
Robertson 1900's to present Lanarkshire, Scotland

I have an Elizabeth (Ellen) Robertson born about 1835, who married a Robert Clark born about 1833.

They appear in the 1881 Census as living at 231 Rutherglen Road, Govan, Hutchesontown, Lanarkshire.

I discovered Elizabeth Robertson through the 1884 marriage details of their son Robert Clark, who is my Great, Great, Grandfather.


Their Children were :: Mary Clark born 1854, John Clark born 1859, Ann Clark born 1862, Robert Clark born 1866 and Maria Clark born 1868.

So far I have not found any further information on Elizabeth Robertson.

[webwiz]

The two births below seem to confuse the issue. Is it possible that there were two more children after the 5 you mention? Elizabeth (or Mary?) would have been 46 when the unnamed boy was born so just possible.

Name Margaret Muir Clark
Gender Female
Birth Date 26 Dec 1880
Birthplace Anderston, Lanark, Scotland
Father's Name Robert Clark
Mother's Name Elizabeth Robertson
CITING THIS RECORD

"Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT64-4PY : accessed 7 October 2015), Robert Clark in entry for Margaret Muir Clark, 26 Dec 1880; citing Anderston, Lanark, Scotland, reference p21; FHL microfilm 232,674.

Name Clark
Gender Male
Birth Date 27 Jun 1881
Birthplace Dysart Burgh, Fife, Scotland
Father's Name Robert Clark
Mother's Name Mary Robertson
CITING THIS RECORD

"Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT62-QM8 : accessed 7 October 2015), Robert Clark in entry for Clark, 27 Jun 1881; citing Dysart Burgh, Fife, Scotland, reference v 426 p 68; FHL microfilm 232,647.

(I think it's OK to paste LDS records but if not please delete)

[webwiz]

I now notice that the two births are too close to be the same mother. However the fact that there appear to be two couples with similar names may be a sign that you need to be extra careful.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Can you tell me please what occupation is given for the father Robert on your Gt Gt Grandfathers birth cert please?
I ask because the most likely Robert jnr I found in 1871 and 1881 appears to be from a different family than the one you have mentioned (father on that is a chimney sweep). So it looks as though I have found the wrong one.

[rds60h]

Can you tell me please what occupation is given for the father Robert on your Gt Gt Grandfathers birth cert please?
I ask because the most likely Robert jnr I found in 1871 and 1881 appears to be from a different family than the one you have mentioned (father on that is a chimney sweep). So it looks as though I have found the wrong one.

Hi Chrissie,
On the 1881 Census my Gt Gt Grandfather Robert Clark is shown as a "Mill Farness Man" I cannot find out anything about a "Farness Man" and so I assume that it is supposed to be "Furness Man" as much of the machinery then was steam powered.
However, on the 1883 Marriage Certificate of his son Robert my Gt Gt Grandfather Robert Clark is shown as deceased and to have been a Carpet Weaver.
It is possible that this change of occupation may have been within the same factory as carpet factories were often called mills. Also Glasgow's most famous Carpet Manufacturer Templeton's Carpets had their factory built in the late 1870's so they would have attracted many new workers in the early 1880's.

[rds60h]

The two births below seem to confuse the issue. Is it possible that there were two more children after the 5 you mention? Elizabeth (or Mary?) would have been 46 when the unnamed boy was born so just possible.

Name Margaret Muir Clark
Gender Female
Birth Date 26 Dec 1880
Birthplace Anderston, Lanark, Scotland
Father's Name Robert Clark
Mother's Name Elizabeth Robertson
CITING THIS RECORD

"Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT64-4PY : accessed 7 October 2015), Robert Clark in entry for Margaret Muir Clark, 26 Dec 1880; citing Anderston, Lanark, Scotland, reference p21; FHL microfilm 232,674.

Name Clark
Gender Male
Birth Date 27 Jun 1881
Birthplace  Dysart Burgh, Fife, Scotland
Father's Name Robert Clark
Mother's Name Mary Robertson
CITING THIS RECORD

"Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT62-QM8 : accessed 7 October 2015), Robert Clark in entry for Clark, 27 Jun 1881; citing Dysart Burgh, Fife, Scotland, reference v 426 p 68; FHL microfilm 232,647.

(I think it's OK to paste LDS records but if not please delete)

Hi Webwiz,
I came across several Robert Clarks with connections to a Mary Robertson, and as you say you have to be very careful.
To that extent I always double check things like Census details, Marriage Certificates and Birth Certificates to confirm details between all of them, so when you manage to connect birth dates and locations and marriage certificate details and locations that also correspond with Census details you can be fairly certain you have managed to match people.
With that in mind, I would almost immediately dismiss the 27th June 1881 birth in Dysart Burgh, Fife. because of the distance away from the other records that all show their location during that period as being in and around the Glasgow area.
The 26th December birth of Margaret Muir Clark, I will have to investigate because that does appear to be a distinct possibility because of the location of Anderston which is in the surrounding areas of Glasgow.
I will update on here when I have fully researched this and let you know if I find the records acceptable or if it should be dismissed. So thank you for providing something that I did not find.

[rds60h]

Webwiz, on a quick search for the birth of Margaret Muir Clark to correspond with the records you have quoted from Family Search; I can confirm the same birth with Father Robert Clark & Mother Elizabeth Robertson is also shown on Find My Past along with one other Margaret Clark born in Dennistoun, Lanarkshire in 1880 with the Mother named as Elizabeth Clark and no details for the Father.

On Scotland's People when checking for Margaret Muir Clark born 1880 in Lanarkshire, no records are found and the same when I searched Glasgow City, Anderston.
I then checked for just Margaret Clark, and there are records for 10 births in Lanarkshire in 1880 and on checking Margaret Clark in Glasgow City, Anderston in 1880 there is 1 record.
Unfortunately at the moment I do not have any Credits left to check these any further at the moment, but as and when I have checked them I will get back to you.
One thing that does make me slightly doubtful about this birth being related to the Robert Clark and Elizabeth Robertson that I have is that a Margaret Clark does not appear on their 1881 Census. However, it is possible that the child may have died prior to the Census and so at this point I would not rule her out.

[webwiz]

I have some credits which I don't mind using as I started this hare running, but unfortunately I cannot display the image for some reason. I have tried Chrome and IE and I have downloaded the latest Java. Any ideas? BTW it has already taken my 5 credits even though I can't see it - robbery!

I can't see a death for a Margaret Clark in 1880-81.

[Chrissie Smiff]

In 1881 there is a Margaret M Clark aged 3 months at 50 Catherine Street, Anderston, Lanarkshire. Her parents are Robert and Elizabeth R and she has a sister Mary W aged 4 and a brother David 2. Robert is a tobacconist.

[Chrissie Smiff]

There are so many Robert Clark possibilities, could you perhaps have got the wrong family in 1881? Or do you know that it's the right one for some reason i.e. they are living at the same address as on the marriage cert or similar. In other words, what exactly makes you sure that this is the right family in 1881?

If you could tell us a bit more of the details on the marriage certificate please it might help. Also, who did Robert Clark senior marry and was the marriage in 1884 (as our first post) or 1883 as your post #5.

[rds60h]

I have some credits which I don't mind using as I started this hare running, but unfortunately I cannot display the image for some reason. I have tried Chrome and IE and I have downloaded the latest Java. Any ideas? BTW it has already taken my 5 credits even though I can't see it - robbery!

I can't see a death for a Margaret Clark in 1880-81.

I have had a similar problem with Scotland's People before and my solution was to download to a folder in my Documents Library and then open the file from there, I haven't had any problems since I started doing this.

[rds60h]

Chrissie, this is how I reached Robert Clark.
Clark is my mother's maiden name, her parents were Patrick Cook Clark and Mary Hastie Bell (I have my mother's birth details and photographs, marriage certificate details, birth certificate details, death certificate details and the copy of the wills my mother received on their deaths.
Patrick Cook Clark was born 28th April 1895 (Statutory Births 644/06 0674) his parents are noted as Robert Clark occupation Slater Journeyman married 10th April 1884 in Glasgow to Catherine Clark ms Cook.
Patrick Clark's 1915 marriage certificate (Statutory Marriages 644/08 0020) conducted at the Barony, Glasgow the Usual Residence is shown as 74 Kirk Street, Glasgow his parents are noted as Robert Clark occupation Slater Journeyman married to Catherine Clark ms Cook.
Note that Patrick's middle name is Cook, his mother's maiden name (My middle name is Clark, my mother's middle name) this was a common practice with Scottish families.
I have other documentation such as Census details concerning Patrick and his Parents but they are not required to trace back.


So, as per Patrick's birth certificate his parents Robert and Catherine were married 10th April 1884 in Glasgow, the Marriage Certificate (Statutory Marriages 644/02 0076) shows that on the 10th April 1884 at St Pauls Universalist Church, Watson Street, Glasgow in the District of Camlachie, Robert Clark aged 20 occupation Slater Journeyman married Catherine Cook aged 19 occupation Yarn Winder, there Usual Residence is shown as 30 James Street, Hillhead, Calton, Glasgow.
Catherine's parents are shown as William Cook occupation Stableman and Mary Ann Cook ms Dunn.
Robert' s parents are shown as Robert Clark (deceased) occupation Carpet Weaver and Elizabeth Clark ms Robertson.
For after the marriage I have Census details from 1891 where they still lived in James Street, Glasgow, the 1901 Census when they lived at 15 Struthers Street, Calton, Glasgow and the 1911 Census when they lived at 21 Sydney Street, Calton, Glasgow.
So from this 1884 marriage certificate we can ascertain that Robert (jnr) was born about 1864 and that his parents are Robert Clark and Elizabeth Robertson.

I discovered an 1881 Census for 231 Rutherglen Road, Govan, Hutchesontown, Lanarkshire, which shows a son named Robert born 1864 in Glasgow, occupation General Labourer, the Head of the household is Robert Clark age 48 born 1833 in Ireland, occupation Mill Farness Man, the wife is listed as Ellen Clark age 46 born 1835 in Ireland. (there are other family members listed).
I consider this Census information as only a possibility because I have not confirmed any of the family members details as completely correct.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Thank you rds
I have searched and searched in various ways to try and find the answer to your query but nothing seems to fit for Robert Clark and Elizabeth nee Robertson.
I have tried following for example the people on the 1881 census that you have been looking at, but everything on there seems to lead me back to a marriage of a Robert Clark to Helen Girvan/Garvin. One example is that the only birth for a Maria Clark that I can find between 1863 and 1870 in Lanarkshire is 1867 in Cadder Lanarkshire and she is the daughter of Robert (a Furnace Heater) and Helen Clark MS Girvan. Their marriage in 1849 gives her name as Gavin.

During my searches I did come across a Robert Clarke who was an actual Carpet Weaver, but he was too old and nothing else fit.

I can't think where to go from here - sorry.

p.s. The only marriage I could find of a Robert Clark to an Elizabeth Robertson was in 1876 (so too late) in Hutchesontown - Glasgow City - Lanark. Of course they could have been married before 1855 but they don't show up on the Old Parish Registers or the Catholic Registers either.

p.p.s. They could also have been married in Ireland.

[rds60h]

Chrissie, Thank you so much for your efforts, it is much appreciated.

From the actual paperwork that I have from my Grandfather, Patrick Cook Clark I can be 99.9% certain that Robert Clark jnr and Catherine Cook are my Great Grandparents, but after that things become quite vague.

When you get certificates from Scotland's People they are usually quite informative and definitive, unfortunately their search methods are quite vague and usually lead you to several options which you then have to pay for and it often means that you are paying just to dismiss possibilities which becomes very expensive, especially if you are on a limited income as I am.
At the moment I have about 10 Robert Clark's on Scotland's People that I wish to check, and I will but it will be on a piecemeal basis. As and when I find out more I will update on here.
As I said at the start, Thank you for you efforts and input.

[rds60h]

A little bit more information, Robert Clark and Catherine Cook married in St Pauls Universalist Church. Back then many of the marriages in the Universalist Church were between "mixed religions" so a place where a catholic and a protestant could marry each other, which even now in Glasgow can be looked down on by some bigoted people.

[vera2013]

Hello Rds60h

I took a look last night and see that the 1881 Robert and Catherine, the Robert who worked in a Furnace is also in the 1891. Robert Jnr says that in 1884 when marrying that his father is already deceased and a Carpet Weaver.

Looked for a death on SP to see if we could pin point date. Managed to whittle it down a bit but left with two possibles but that was just looking at Lanarkshire deaths so could be on the wrong track.

However, not seeing a Robert Clark, Carpet Weaver, or a Elizabeth Robinson separately or together with a child named Robert in 1871/1881.

I agree about SP. Wish they would not charge for initial searches ie the one credit and just if you do make a possible hit. Great results of course when you finally make it. Will have another go.

Vera

[rds60h]

Hi Vera, the Robert Clark & Elizabeth (nee Robertson) that I have on the 1881 Census, I am still not 100% certain on because of the first name of Ellen, because Ellen can be used for Elizabeth, Helen, Eleanor and a few other first names, but the other family members seem correct.
I have checked the 1891 Census for Elizabeth or Ellen Clark's that are widows and have found 3 that need further investigation. Because Robert jnr's marriage certificate shows his father as deceased it really does mean that I can rule out any Robert Clark snr after that date.
As I have said to the others, Thank you so much for your effort and input because it all help me with my search and I am grateful for that.

Ray

[vera2013]

Ray

I was wondering if the Robert, dec, Carpet Weaver was perhaps fictitious on Robert b 1864/66 marriage cert or possibly not and maybe Elizabeth Robertson re-married after Robert's death. I was left with two likely deaths on SP for a Robert Clark between 1864 and 1884 but they were in Blythswood. Is that a likely area for a Carpet Weaver?

If you find anything on an SP search that is a possibility ie bmd, Ancestry have lots of Scottish bmd's indexed with parents so it helps to eliminate before contemplating the dreaded 5 credits.

Vera

[rds60h]

Hi Vera,
Glasgow's most famous carpet factory was Templeton Carpets and they began producing carpets in 1888 while the impressive factory building was built around the small weaving sheds they were using, the building was completed in 1892 and although no longer a carpet factory the front façade is considered one of the most opulent and flamboyant buildings in Glasgow. The factory is in the Glasgow Green area which is only a short distance from the Blythswood area. If you are interested in old buildings or architecture then it is a beautiful must see building.
However, the likelihood of the deceased entry of Robert snr on the 1884 Marriage Certificate of Robert jnr and Catherine Cook being incorrect is highly unlikely because Scottish Marriage Certificates at that time were quite meticulous and contain a lot of information, especially when compared to English Marriage Certificates at the time.
Thanks for the tip about using Ancestry for eliminating some possibilities, as I usually only tried Family Search to do that.

[Chrissie Smiff]

I have been wondering the same as Vera about the possibility of Robert lying about his father Ray. I know that the Scottish certificates are more detailed but I don't suppose that stopped people from making up details of their fathers or ages etc. Unless of course they had to produce a birth certificate in Scotland (which I doubt)?