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colliemag
15-08-15, 21:20
Having had so much help to find the reason why my husband's grandfather, George Harris Ryder was also called Lazarus, I now want to try to find the Kennedy family he married into. On most censuses his wife Margaret's (born Leeds c1879) parents are simply from 'Ireland', but in 1851 they are from Flipperary, and in 1891 the copy said 'Tippuary', but the original clearly said Tipperary. They were Edward Kennedy, born c1835, and his wife Mary, nee Parkinson, born c1837. I really don't know how to find Irish connections, so would be most grateful for any suggestions of where I should look. Thank you in anticipation.

Karamazov
15-08-15, 21:45
Do you mean they were both in England - presumably not married to each other as too young- in the 1851 census?
Do you know when and where they married?
Christine

colliemag
15-08-15, 22:25
Sorry, that was my mistake. I meant 1861. I think in 1851 I have Edward lodging in Skipton, Yorkshire, though why he would be I've no idea. By 1861 he was a cloth dyer and Mary was a silk spinner. Their children were all born in Leeds. I haven't checked on where Mary was in 1851, I'll do that now.

colliemag
15-08-15, 22:39
No, I was right, it was just Edward who was on the 1851 census in Skipton who was from Flipperary! I can't be sure of Mary on the 1851
census.

Karamazov
15-08-15, 22:41
This looks like their marriage:
q3 1856 Leeds 9b 512.

Do you have the marriage cert? If so, were they RC? And what were their respective fathers' names and occupations?

Karamazov
15-08-15, 23:07
This could be Mary Parkinson in 1851 - but it's really hard to be definitive without some more family details.
It was the only result I got in Yorkshire with birth year 1835 +/- 5 years and optional keyword Ireland.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1851%2f0014723983

Paley Galleries, Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Ann Parkinson head widow 40 lodging house keeper born Ireland
children (all unmarried and all born Ireland)
Kate Parkinson 20 flax carder
James 16 flax hackler (?)
Mary 14 flax spinner
Ann 11 servant
John 8
Eliza 3

Plus 5 lodgers, all also born Ireland.

Christine

colliemag
15-08-15, 23:11
I don't have their marriage certificate but can now send for it, thanks. They would have been RC, their daughter Margaret, born Leeds c1879, was the one who married George Harris Ryder, and subsequently THEIR daughter, Lilian Ryder, who was definitely RC married Rowland Beal, who was NOT RC, and which caused some problems!! I don't know the parent's of Edward and Mary (nee Parkinson), as once Lilian had died their side of the family was never spoken of again. This is why, I'm sure, my husband wants to find out about his ancestry on the Ryder/Kennedy/Parkinson side.

Olde Crone Holden
15-08-15, 23:11
The marriage took place in the Register Office, according to Yorksbmd, so not a Catholic wedding.

OC

colliemag
15-08-15, 23:12
Thanks, I'll send for the marriage cert as soon as possible and that will give a starting point. That's great! Off to bed now, so no more tonight. M

colliemag
15-08-15, 23:13
Interesting. Maybe cheaper if either or both sets of parents still in Ireland.

Olde Crone Holden
15-08-15, 23:38
No, it wouldn't have been anything to do with the cost. What I think probably happened was that the RC church they attended did not have a priest who was authorised to perform marriages - not many RC churches did have in 1856. So people would have a nuptial mass in church, then go to the Register Office for the legal bit, thus satisfying both religious and civil considerations.

OC

Karamazov
15-08-15, 23:57
The marriage took place in the Register Office, according to Yorksbmd, so not a Catholic wedding.

OC
Speaking from a position of ignorance here - Not a Catholic ceremony then but presumably they could still have been Catholic??? Is religious denomination recorded on English marriage certs? If not, then if we find baptism records for E and M's children in Leeds, that should tell us. The reason I'm asking about their religion is that it may help narrow things down a bit if we manage to get back to Tipperary - although I think that's going to be incredibly difficult/nigh on impossible.

Much more recently, my (RC) parents married in a registry office in England but then married "properly" in church back home in Ireland...

Mary from Italy
16-08-15, 00:18
The religious denomination of the parties isn't recorded on English marriage certs, just the denomination of the church (if any) where they were married.

I've checked the West Yorkshire C of E and non-conformist birth/baptism registers on Ancestry for children of Edward and Mary Kennedy, and nothing comes up, so I would think they were RC.

I don't think Yorkshire RC records are online at present.

Janet
16-08-15, 11:47
The trouble with Ireland is that they may say Tipperary,which is a good starting point for you, but the family may also have moved. On my maternal side I have a Kennedy family marrying into a Mc Grath family in Kilworth Co Cork, and this village is not far from the Co Tipperary border. Mine is also an Edward Kennedy who married Anne Mc Grath 1838 Kilworth. Edward, also known as Edmund and Ed, had died by the 1851 Irish Census, which fragment exists for Kilworth. One of their daughters was a Mary Kennedy born 1841. There are a number of Kennedy families in this parish but I cannot key into any of them as I have insufficient information on Edward. Neither Edward nor Anne Mc Grath appear to have been born/baptised in Kilworth. I am also researching my paternal family line in Tipperary and have come across many Kennedy and Mc Grath/McCraith and am wondering if mine have moved over the border.

Note your Edward and Mary, which will be replicated down generations as part of the Irish naming pattern. Back in the early to mid 1800's Kilworth had a huge army camp, with Fermoy not far away and would have been a huge draw for work for those from famine starved Tipperary.

Janet

Janet
16-08-15, 12:03
I did try to add to the above that it would be a good idea for you to check your Edward Kennedy on both Griffiths and Tithe Aplotments for Co Tipperary and Kilworth area to see how many come up. Thurles area has a lot of Kennedy. Don't forget to check for Edward/Edmond/Edmund/Ed.

Janet

Karamazov
16-08-15, 13:00
Note your Edward and Mary, which will be replicated down generations as part of the Irish naming pattern. Back in the early to mid 1800's Kilworth had a huge army camp, with Fermoy not far away and would have been a huge draw for work for those from famine starved Tipperary.

Janet
IF the family followed Irish naming conventions, I'm guessing that the fathers of Edward Kennedy and Mary Parkinson were Edward Kennedy and Bernard Parkinson as these were the names of their first two sons together. (Plus it's also suggestive that their first daughter was named Ann/Annie which was also the name of Mary Parkinson's mother if I have found the right family in Leeds in post 6 above.)
But we'll have to wait until Colliemag gets the Kennedy/Parkinson marriage cert for confirmation of the respective fathers' names...

The next step would then be, as you suggest, to check both names in the tithe applotments to see if that helps narrow down to a parish or townland. There's no hard evidence as yet that the Kennedy and Parkinson families were already in the same area of Tipperary before Edward and Mary both migrated to England. Of course, it could be just coincidence that two Tippers ended up meeting and marrying in Leeds but my gut feeling is that it would still be worth looking for areas where both surnames occur.
Even though the Griffiths Valuation postdates the migration to England, it should still also be helpful in finding concentrations of Kennedys and Parkinsons in Tipp.
Christine

Janet
16-08-15, 14:48
IF the family followed Irish naming conventions, I'm guessing that the fathers of Edward Kennedy and Mary Parkinson were Edward Kennedy and Bernard Parkinson as these were the names of their first two sons together. (Plus it's also suggestive that their first daughter was named Ann/Annie which was also the name of Mary Parkinson's mother if I have found the right family in Leeds in post 6 above.)
But we'll have to wait until Colliemag gets the Kennedy/Parkinson marriage cert for confirmation of the respective fathers' names...

The next step would then be, as you suggest, to check both names in the tithe applotments to see if that helps narrow down to a parish or townland. There's no hard evidence as yet that the Kennedy and Parkinson families were already in the same area of Tipperary before Edward and Mary both migrated to England. Of course, it could be just coincidence that two Tippers ended up meeting and marrying in Leeds but my gut feeling is that it would still be worth looking for areas where both surnames occur.
Even though the Griffiths Valuation postdates the migration to England, it should still also be helpful in finding concentrations of Kennedys and Parkinsons in Tipp.
Christine

Agreed, except that first born son in Ireland is named after the father's father ie grandfather, NOT the father. Even in England most Irish followed the convention of the naming pattern in the 1800's. Even my eldest brother was called Michael, which Michael went back to Tipperary of 1827! Not everybody is in the Tithe Aplotments (TA) of the 1820's, but everybody is on Griffiths of 1840's to 1860's.

Janet

Janet
16-08-15, 15:16
The Irish naming pattern for sons is as follows:

First born son named after his father's father
Second born son named after his mother's father
Third born son named after his father
Fourth born son named after his father's oldest brother
Fifth born son named after his father's 2nd oldest brother or his mother's oldest brother

Janet

Karamazov
16-08-15, 15:43
Agreed, except that first born son in Ireland is named after the father's father ie grandfather, NOT the father.

Janet
That's exactly what I was saying - that the eldest Kennedy/Parkinson son was called Edward, therefore I was guessing that his father's father was also called Edward Kennedy.
Agree that the tithe applotments are more limited re who was included whilst Griffiths is much more inclusive.

Janet
16-08-15, 16:36
"I'm guessing that the fathers of Edward Kennedy and Mary Parkinson were Edward Kennedy and Bernard Parkinson"


Christine, I picked up your above sentence as though you meant the fathers instead of what it should be, which is the grandfathers, apologies.

Janet

colliemag
16-08-15, 18:33
This is absolutely fascinating re the naming, and hopefully will be enough to give me clues when I get to that stage. I have sent off for the marriage certificate and really we can't be sure of anything until I get that back, I'm guessing. I've only had time to skim through the replies but will have a proper look this evening.

colliemag
22-08-15, 13:32
Well, the marriage certificate has arrived and thrown up more questions than answers!! Edward Kennedy was a Dyer's Labourer, address Paley's Galleries, Marsh Lane, Leeds, father Brian Kennedy, Farmer's Labourer. Mary Parkinson was living in Catherine Street, Leeds, father William Parkinson, labourer. They were married in the Saint Patrick's Chapel according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church. The Priest was Michael O'Donnell. Neither the bride nor the groom, or either of their witnesses, were able to write. The witnesses were John Barry and Jane Lawler. Going back to Edward's father, the name Brian has never appeared in anything we have seen, however Edward was following a trade which comes down the generations, and must have been how my husband's mother and father met. She was from a family with a history of cloth dying, and he was a master cloth dyer (my husband remembers that he used to produce the green baize for snooker tables!). I will now start looking to see if the name Brian comes up anywhere else in the family!! Any help on the Irish side would be greatly appreciated.

Olde Crone Holden
22-08-15, 17:11
Ah, now that is interesting, colliemag and it means that the local Yorkshirebmds mean, when they say "Registered building", not the Register Office, but a place registered to perform marriage. Naughty because it is not shown as a RC chapel which is confusing.

No help to you of course, but useful to me!

OC

colliemag
23-08-15, 16:08
At the time of their marriage, Karamazov, Edward Kennedy was living at Paley's Galleries according to the Marriage Certificate, so presumably Edward was lodging there at that time!

vera2013
24-08-15, 05:11
Using some free searches on Roots Ireland it is showing one only

Baptism for Edward Kennedy bap Co Tipperary 1833 - using father Brian in the search


There is also a Marriage, one only showing for Brian Kennedy 1820 Co Tipperary and
a

Death, one only for Brian Kennedy aged 65 Co Tipperary

This is a sub site for one month approx. £18

Vera

vera2013
24-08-15, 05:25
Deleted as not showing record

Vera

colliemag
24-08-15, 08:45
Thank you for the info, Vera. Don't quite understand the deletion. If this is the right Brian's marriage, then that can't be his Edward's baptism as Brian would only have been 13 by my reckoning. However, the ages shown might indicate that this was the correct Edward, going by his age at marriage. I'll go onto Irish Roots (didn't know about it) and have a look. Thanks again. Maggie

vera2013
24-08-15, 13:52
Maggie the deletion was me trying to link up with the actual search results but it was just showing the 'how to subscribe' page.

The result for a Brian marriage showed it to be 1820 - not his baptism so OK for an Edward baptism of 1833.
I suppose a 13 year span of having children is OK also

Vera