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Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 14:40
William Charles Lewin's place of birth is recorded on the registration of the death of his young daughter Evelyn Annie Lewin.

Where do you reckon it was????? I'm totally stumped on this (apart from the "England" bit!)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JD6F-RJX

I'm hoping pob will help identify him in census 1901 and earlier.

Thanks,

Jay

Uncle John
07-08-15, 15:27
Can't decode father's p.o.b. (Besslook??) but mother's looks like Munsley - perhaps a phonetic rendering of Mundesley, Norfolk or maybe Mursley, Buckinghamshire. Any help?

AntonyM
07-08-15, 15:38
There are a few ancestry trees that gives his birth as 21/1/1877 in Bisbrooke, near Uppingham in Rutland - no proper source for the birth though, but the place name fits (sort of) so must be worth investigation.

AntonyM
07-08-15, 15:52
There are a few ancestry trees that gives his birth as 21/1/1877 in Bisbrooke, near Uppingham in Rutland - no proper source for the birth though, but the place name fits (sort of) so must be worth investigation.

Sorry - date should read 21/11/1877

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 16:28
The mother's (Anna Maria Lwein nee Coleman's birthplace was Trunch, Norfolk according to censuses. In 1911 she is with her parents and three of her children (husband not there) at 7 Victoria Cottages, Mundesley, Norfolk.
Anna Maria had been married 6 years and had 3 children, all living.
Anna Maria's father was also born Trunch and her mother Northrepps, Norfolk.
The eldest two children were born Collingwood, Ontario, Canada - Alice Lavinia Lewin (aged 4) and Stephen Charles Coleman Lewin (aged 2)
The youngest Noel James Lewin (8 months old) was born in Mundesley, Norfolk.

Anna Maria and the children went back to Canada in 1912 from Liverpool on the 'Victorian' arriving 4 October . According to the passenger list, all of them are Methodists. If you could find the Methodist marriage register that should give you more on her husband. I've not had a Methodist register entry but I believe they are quite detailed in comparison to C of E ones.

Will see if I dig up something on her husband as he's the one with the more illegible birthplace.

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 16:39
Thank you all for your replies.

I know where Anna Maria, her parents, siblings and children were born, so please don't anyone waste their precious time searching for her or her family. It's the pob & possible dob of the husband that I'm unusure of.
Bissbrooke sounds very feasible - off to chase that lead up now. (I'd seen it as Bisslook, which got me nowhere!)
A previous thread of mine has been resurrected recently, which made me look again at one of my twigs (Anna Maria.)

http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/90394-Help-with-sailings-please

Thanks all -
Jay

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 17:03
I reckon the place must be Bisbrooke, Rutland. According to trees on ancestry he remarried after Anna Maria died. Here's the marriage. The date of birth is different but I'd guess he was trying to shave a bit off! The birthplace of Glaston is les than a mile NE of Bisbrooke.

~Name: Charles Lewin
Age: 40
Birth Date: abt 1884
Birth Place: Glaston, England
Marriage Date: 6 May 1924
Marriage County or District: Simcoe
Father: Daniel Lewin
Mother: Edith Bryan
Spouse: Frances Myrtle Robinson (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=5538&db=OntarioMarr1858-1899_ga&indiv=try&h=3797291)
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse Birth Date: abt 1903
Spouse Birth Place: Collingwood, Ontario
Spouse Father: John Robinson
Spouse Mother: Francis Wright Jessop
Registration district: Simcoe

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 17:09
Hmmm - have looked at the Ancestry tree. I do know that MY William Charles Lewin was in Ontario, where all but one of his children were born.
The birth of son Stephen Charles Colman Lewin was registered in Canada in 1908 and records the parents as William Charles Lewin & Anna Maria Colman. married at Mundesley 2 Mar 1905. (There is a corresponding GRO marriage index entry.) Anna Maria Lewin died in Ontario in 1920 and her death registration records he father as having been Stephen Colman.
The couple's last child was born in 1919 and died in 1920 - this is the record which has the place of birth for William as in #1.

As always, there seems to have been more than one William Charles Lewin, and I think the tree(s) on Ancestry may have confused two different men. As I do not have the marriage cert for Anna Maria, and the details are not online, I have no means of knowing the marital status of William - he could have had a previous marriage, but I don't think he could have managed to sire two families on two continents in the same time span.

Jay

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 17:10
Thank you all for your replies.

I know where Anna Maria, her parents, siblings and children were born, so please don't anyone waste their precious time searching for her or her family. It's the pob & possible dob of the husband that I'm unusure of.

Jay

But I didn't - so needed that info to try to find them together so I knew I'd go the correct man as there seems to be uncertainty over his full name. I'm finding William Charles, William, Charles and Charles William depending on when exactly he was born.
I've not found a marriage for Edith Bryan and Daniel Lewin on familysearch nor a baptism for Daniel - likely they were Methodists too???

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 17:15
If the 2nd marriage is correct, using the parents to confirm, here's what should be the correct person in 1881 census.

~Name: Charles Lewin
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relationship to Head: Son (Child)
Father: Daniel Lewin
Mother: Edith Lewin
Gender: Male
Where born: Bisbrook, Rutland, England
Civil Parish: Glaston
County/Island: Rutland
Country: England
Education:
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Uppingham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Piece: 3190
Folio: 103
Page Number: 35
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18166864) 53
Edith Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18166931) 35
Bob Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18166954) 13
Daniel Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18167017) 9
Thomas Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18167040) 7
Edith Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18167031) 6
Charles Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18166840) 3
Annie Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18167018) 1
Henry Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=18166893)

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 17:17
Interesting find, GallowayLass - I'll investigate a bit further. However, I think there may have also been a Charles Lewin in Simcoe County and other Lewins too. As WC Lewin is a "married in" I haven't dwelt on him too much because it is his wife and children I share blood with.
However, I did try to find him in 1911 Canada census and thought I might have found him (complete with children who were recorded in Mundesley in 1911!) but it turned out to be the wrong man.
I will put this to my new found contact on his return to my other thread next week.

I did wonder if William already had Lewin relatives in Canada, which prompted him to go shortly after marriage, hoping to find a "better" life for them.

Jay

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 17:18
Here's the best match I can see in GRO index. The 1Q of 1878 is a bit late for the birthdate in 1877 in the trees but maybe they are a year out?

~Name: Charles Lewin
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Uppingham
Inferred County: Rutland
Volume: 7a
Page: 339

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 17:20
Same boy in 1891

~Name: Charles Lewin
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation: Son (Child)
Father's name: Daniel Lewin
Mother's name: Edith Lewin
Gender: Male
Where born: Glaston, Rutland, England
Civil Parish: Glaston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
Town: Glaston
County/Island: Rutland
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
Registration district: Uppingham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Piece: 2551
Folio: 82
Page Number: 23
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793351) 64
Edith Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793493) 46
Daniel Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793994) 19
Charles Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793352) 13
Annie Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23794003) 11
Rose Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793995) 9
Avnol Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793076) 7
Arthur Lewin (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=23793092) 4

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 17:40
I can't see him on the 1901 census living in either Rutland or Norfolk. There were 2 Anna Maria Coleman who married in 1905 in Norfolk. The one that should be right is 1st quarter Erpingham but her husband is shown as William Charles Lewin.

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 18:41
I can't see him on the 1901 census living in either Rutland or Norfolk. There were 2 Anna Maria Coleman who married in 1905 in Norfolk. The one that should be right is 1st quarter Erpingham but her husband is shown as William Charles Lewin.

All the "official" documentation I've found for my man, from his marriage onwards, records him as William Charles, including an emigration card for his son Stephen in 1924(?) detailing his father as Wm C. (I can accept him being known in the parental home before his marriage by his middle name.)

This is the 1911 Canadian census return I found:
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/jpg/e002020718.jpg

All born Ontario
two children in the family, both with the name of a child of WC & Anna; But Anna M & their THREE children were in England in 1911
The dob given for Alice June 1906, Stephen March 1908, Annie August 1887, Charles May 1876.
Anna Maria born 1883, Alice Lavinia Sept 1806, & Stephen October 1908 William Charles unknown
All Methodists.

I can't access 1921 Canada census - it needs a sub to Ancestry worldwide - would love to know how WC & his enlarged family are recorded .

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 19:04
Married Jan 1925 Alice Lewin Gray (her birth registration has an addendum that she was adopted by Mr John Gray) daughter of Anna Marie Colman & Chas W Lewin. bride's father born England

There is also this Canadian birth reg
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VNLJ-GGV
and this 1881 Canada census return
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MVDN-SCL

Jay

vera2013
07-08-15, 20:42
Would need to read this a bit more Jay but think these maybe the 1921 census. Alice appears to be out of the family 'inmate' but working as a school matron. Have saved if you need them

1921 Canadian Census

Charles aged 38 can't read Occupation Widower Immigrated 1913
Steven aged 12 born England
Newell aged 10 ?? Name
Moris aged 6 ?? Name
Daniel aged 4

Hume Street, Ward 3

1921 Canadian Census

Alice born 1906 Ontario Inmate/Assistant/Matron - looks like a School
Father born in England
Rel Anglican

Simcoe South, Ontario

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8991/1921_086-e003035037/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=8991&iid=1921_086-e003035037&fn=Stephen&ln=Lawin&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2463830

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8991/1921_086-e003035037/2463829?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dcharles%26gsln%3dl ewin%26msbdy%3d1883%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26ms bpn__ftp%3dEngland%26msbpn%3d3251%26msbpn_PInfo%3d 3-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c0%257c0%257c0%257c%26msrpn__ftp%3dSimcoe%252c%2 bOntario%252c%2bCanada%26msrpn%3d1654334%26msrpn_P Info%3d7-%257c0%257c1652393%257c0%257c3243%257c0%257c5007%2 57c0%257c1654334%257c0%257c0%257c%26_83004003-n_xcl%3df%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d3%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d 326%26pcat%3dCEN_1920%26h%3d2463829%26db%3dCanCen1 921%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Vera

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 20:52
This is the 1911 Canadian census return I found:
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/jpg/e002020718.jpg

I can't access 1921 Canada census - it needs a sub to Ancestry worldwide - would love to know how WC & his enlarged family are recorded .

Jay

Where did you get this 1911 census from? I've been trawling ancestry for hours now and hadn't found it. Even putting in the exact moth and year of the children's births as on the census page, I still get no results. What did you enter to bring this item up?

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 20:59
I can't see him on the 1901 census living in either Rutland or Norfolk. There were 2 Anna Maria Coleman who married in 1905 in Norfolk. The one that should be right is 1st quarter Erpingham but her husband is shown as William Charles Lewin.

There is an army record for a Charles Lewin born Brisbrook 1877, who served in the Lincolnshire regiment. He served in India Oct 1898 until March 1903.
There is a signature on his enlistment form (1895) but I don;t have a later one to compare it with.

Jay

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 21:01
In the 1921 census found by Vera, Newell is Noel James, the child on the 1991 England census that was born in Norfolk.

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 21:04
There is an army record for a Charles Lewin born Brisbrook 1877, who served in the Lincolnshire regiment. He served in India Oct 1898 until March 1903.
There is a signature on his enlistment form (1895) but I don;t have a later one to compare it with.

Jay

That will explain why he's not on the 1901 census then. I wonder how he met Anna Maria Coleman and married in Norfolk almost 2 years later? His address and occupation will be on the marriage certificate. Looks like you are going to have to shell out and buy it.

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 21:15
Where did you get this 1911 census from? I've been trawling ancestry for hours now and hadn't found it. Even putting in the exact moth and year of the children's births as on the census page, I still get no results. What did you enter to bring this item up?

From here http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/Pages/home.aspx?PHPSESSID=p2lsjj0fosh3ukm8lrj7b90ss0

(I only have basic Ancestry - the above site is free.)
I use the site a lot, but do find it very "precise," with many transcription errors, so often have to do a lot of fiddling. Less is definitely better and, after consulting familysearch.org for a breakdown of info, I often enter e.g Alice age X, then name of a county as a keyword. Sometimes I have to go through all family members to get the required image.
The quality of this particular image is poor, most are much clearer.
I did wonder if someone else (relative?) had supplied the information, at an empty property, which would explain the 2 known children and a guestimate about ages and country of birth.
The 1911 Census for Canada officially began on June, 1, 1911. Perhaps he was between family homes due to having gone to England and had had to find a new job on his return. In 1906 he was a fireman, 1908 a boilermaker - I guess both jobs were in shipbuilding??

Thanks for all you help - I am having a headache with this chap, and basically it doesn't matter a flying fig whether or not I have full details of him as it's his wife who's a slender twig on the periphery of my tree, but we get obsessed by the challenge of mis-information!

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 21:28
Thanks Vera - I'm struggling to keep up!
It could well be that new member Bill, grandson of William Charles and son of Noel, can add family anecdotes to this next week when he returns from a little break. He posted a couple of days ago on an old thread of mine ("Help with sailings") and that precipitated this thread, and now it's created a bit of a mystery and I'll have a job getting off to sleep tonight! Does anyone else think through family history mysteries instead of counting sheep? :D I never did get on with counting sheep - it kept me wide awake because I could picture them and they were always having to jump over a hurdle, but some jumped onto others already climbing over, others ran round it and some broke free and ran off and
went through a gap in the hedge.

Bill said Alice was sent off to another family after Anna Maria died (I think he mentioned the name Murray??) but the boys stayed with WC.
I found that Alice was adopted by a Mr John Gray - it was written on the bottom of her birth registration (the image is on familysearch.org) If only that happened here! She married as Alice Lewin Gray, daughter of Chas W Lewin.

Jay

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 21:41
This is the signature from Charles' 2nd marriage in 1924 for you to compare. I have the whole image if you want it.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h374/GallowayLass/Charles%20Lewin%20Signature%201924.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/GallowayLass/media/Charles%20Lewin%20Signature%201924.jpg.html)

GallowayLass
07-08-15, 21:59
I have ancestry worldwide and I just can't find him on 1911 Canada. I wouldn't worry about the other people on the page with him. Many people didn't understand fully how to complete the census and he probably put his wife and two children because they normally lived there. They were just on holiday in England with their Mum as she had likely gone home to visit her parents and gave birth to child number three while she was there.

UPDATE - got him now. I followed a source link in one of the ancestry trees and he's been indexed as LEAVIN. Doh!

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 22:25
17757

What do you reckon?
Sorry never added an image before, do I need to make it bigger and if so, how do I do that?

Jay

vera2013
07-08-15, 22:47
17759 17758

mm not sure. There appears to be a long tail on the L on 1st one



You found it before me Galloway Lass. I tried every which way.

Have got the WW Ancestry. Can see a Charles Lewin into Liverpool from Canada Janauary 1905, possibly in time for his 1st M to Anna Maria 1st Q 1905 Erpingham reg. He is a boiler maker with dob of 1876.

There is also a bit of toing and froing of Anna Maria. Into the UK 1910 before Noel's birth and then returning in 1912.

I agree with Glasgow Girl. Charles just added his family in 1911 even though they weren't there.

His 2nd marriage 1924 gives parents as Daniel and Edith Bryan who fit with the Brisbook (spelling) birth and on Census. He also said he was 40 years of age but then his bride was only 21.

Off to have a glass of something now.

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
07-08-15, 23:10
Thanks for putting them side by side Vera.

I thought they showed a lot of likenesses, especially the "r" in Charles.
The first one was 1895, the second 1924.

Thanks also for the 1905 incoming passenger information - I can only access outgoing. Boilermaker is interesting because that is what trade is recorded in 1908 on Stephen's birth registration.
I think the March 1905 sailing to Portland for WC & Mrs Lewin was for a farmer, and then there's the Nov 1910 Liverpool to Quebec voyage for a William Lewin, single, 33 yrs joiner.

Enjoy your glass of mineral water or Ribena, Vera - I've resorted to a piledriver (a home made concoction of orange juice with a tiny? measure of white rum.) Cheers.

jay

vera2013
07-08-15, 23:57
I agree the ar of Charles is similar.

Just found them going out after their marriage

transcribed as Mrs Wm C Lewin aged 26 Boiler Maker

AM wife aged 22

Arrived 2nd April 1905 on the SS Vancouver from Liverpool.

That piledriver sounds very good. Distraught at not being able to get my Ribena from that supermarket anymore. It will just have to be water. Perhaps with a little something on the side.

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
08-08-15, 00:33
Thanks Vera.
How very interesting on the 1905 departure record WC was a farmer. By the time they arrived, he was a boilermaker.
I am intrigued by the job descriptions 1895 enlistment Charles was a groom.
In the army until 1903. 1905 WC was a Boilersmith - wonder where he learned that trade? 1906 fireman (perhaps stoking on a ship??) 1908 boilerman.
Does the 1924 marriage record for Charles record an occupation, I wonder?

Jay

GallowayLass
08-08-15, 01:57
It says he's an ironmaker and a widower. I think he's shaved off 7 or 8 years fron his age to lessen the gap between hin and his much younger bride. Charkes is now C of E but the bride is of the Gospel Workers.

I can't sleep either but that's due to pain in shoulder and left leg and general arthritic decrepitness LOL Sadly alcohol would not help. Your concoction soubds lovely
If you PM me your email address I'll send you the marriage image.

Janet in Yorkshire
08-08-15, 18:44
pm sent.
Many thanks GL.

Jay

vera2013
08-08-15, 19:08
17763

This second signature from his Army record looks a good comparison

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
08-08-15, 19:26
Thanks for that Vera.
You found him coming back to Liverpool in early 1905, in time to marry Anna Maria.
Can anyone find him going out to North America 1903 - 1905?
I'm intrigued as to how and where the happy couple met.
I'm also totally confused by all the possible sailings and as to whether Anna Maria came back alone with the two children, whilst her husband remained in Canada. In which case the Nov 1910 sailing of William Lewin, single, joiner, wouldn't have been for him.

I do appreciate everyone's help.

Jay

vera2013
08-08-15, 19:44
I've been looking for him going out prior to coming back to marry Anna Maria. No luck so far.

If you mean the 1912 sailing. Ann Maria returned alone with the children. I will double check.

You are welcome to have the downloads.

Vera

vera2013
08-08-15, 19:56
Yes, Anna Maria and the 3 children only.

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
08-08-15, 20:45
I have the image of Alice & the children departing in 1912 - "The leaving of Liverpool," LOL.

I have looked back at my "sailing" thread where Elaine in Spain posted
Anna, Alice and Stephen are shown on the Incoming Passenger Lists on Ancestry:

Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
Anna Lewin
Port of Departure Montréal
Arrival Date - 3 Jun 1910, Liverpool
Ship Name: Victorian

So, unless anyone can find anything to the contrary, it looks as if Wm C/Charles perhaps stayed in Canada and didn't come over at all. In which case, the Nov 1910 sailing of William Lewin joiner, 33 yrs, was not Anna's husband.
A long stint on separate continents - one wonders why.
Methinks I may have opened up a can of worms for someone :confused:

Jay

GallowayLass
08-08-15, 21:30
Don't jump to conclusions LOL My Grandad had a brother and sister in law in Perth, Australia. They had emigrated in May 1922. Their first child was born in Crewe because the wife wanted to come home to Mum to have first baby in England. She arrived in Plymouth from Fremantle 8 November 1923. The baby was born 5 January 1924. Mother and son left from London 24 April 1924 to return to Australia. At no time was her husband with her.

vera2013
08-08-15, 23:13
http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=william&gsln=lew*n&MSAV=1&msady=1910&msady_x=1&_83004003-n_xcl=f&cpxt=1&cp=3&catbucket=rstp&uidh=326&pcat=40&h=4004160&db=CanadianPL&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2

This is what could be William the Joiner arriving in Canada. Only trouble is he is now 10 years older and a Labourer. Will need to double check there is not another William Lewin on board..

William Lewin aged 45/43 Previous occ Labourer. Planned occ General Labourer. Destination c/o Post Office, Ontario

Arrived on the 15th November 1910 on the Dominion from Liverpool

Is that a bit quick for an Atlantic crossing. William, the Joiner left on the 5th November 1910

Vera

vera2013
08-08-15, 23:36
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7488/NYT715_357-0141/4030777177?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co .uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnypl%26h%3d4030777177%26indiv %3dtry%26o_vc%3dRecord%3aOtherRecord%26rhSource%3d 8991&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

This is an Ancestry cross ref of Charles Lewin

Liverpool to New York
17th May 1903
b 1878 aged 25
Single
on the Etruria

Image shows that he is a Groom. Last destination Stamford, England. In transit to what looks like Bro Bryan in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada

Vera

GallowayLass
08-08-15, 23:43
Arrived on the 15th November 1910 on the Dominion from Liverpool

Is that a bit quick for an Atlantic crossing. William, the Joiner left on the 5th November 1910

Vera

No. 10 days was a bit slow. Around 1910 the average crossing was a week. Luxury liners like the Mauritania and Lusitania could do it in 5 days.

GallowayLass
08-08-15, 23:49
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7488/NYT715_357-0141/4030777177?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co .uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnypl%26h%3d4030777177%26indiv %3dtry%26o_vc%3dRecord%3aOtherRecord%26rhSource%3d 8991&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

This is an Ancestry cross ref of Charles Lewin

Liverpool to New York
17th May 1903
b 1878 aged 25
Single
on the Etruria

Image shows that he is a Groom. Last destination Stamford, England. In transit to what looks like Bro Bryan in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada

Vera

I saw that one too Vera but wasn't sure about the groom as occupation but then later last night I saw the attestation paper and he was a groom. What really confused me though was "Bro" Bryan. On the 1881 and 1891, I could not see that our man had a brother called Bryan but his mother's maiden surname was Bryan according to his 2nd marriage in 1924. I wonder if the clerk should have written "uncle" instead? I think it looks like the right man though. Going out to see if a new life would be a good thing for him.

GallowayLass
09-08-15, 00:15
Charles is now C of E but the bride is of the Gospel Workers.

I Googled Gospel Workers and found that they were actually Methodists with a string connection to Collingwood, Ontario. Here's a link to page on Google Books

http://bit.ly/1OYgeBm

Janet in Yorkshire
09-08-15, 10:27
Gosh, girls, I had to go off early last night and you HAVE been busy during my absence - thank you so much.
The groom & Stamford details for the 1903 sailing fit in with the military record of Charles, as does Collingwood match what we know of WC.
On my other thread, Bill asked if I knew of anything to connect his grandfather WCL with being a church minister - I didn't but suggested he may have been a Methodist or of some other non-conformist persuasion. Could Bro have signified Brother Bryan, a church leader as well as a possible relative???

I've gone back through my Colman notes to see if I can find any member of the extended family who enlisted, but as yet, I haven't found any link. I suppose a soldier friend of William/Charles could have been friendly with a friend of Anna's and that's how the couple met?? Or a pen-pals type arrangement through the church to recruit potential brides for expanding populations - the precursor to internet dating!

Will have a look at the Gospel workers link this evening - I have to go out now.
Once again, thanks for all your help.

Jay

GallowayLass
09-08-15, 12:09
String connection??? That should have been strong. Oops!

vera2013
09-08-15, 12:45
No. 10 days was a bit slow. Around 1910 the average crossing was a week. Luxury liners like the Mauritania and Lusitania could do it in 5 days.

Thank for the info Galloway Lass. Much quicker than I thought.

Must be William the Joiner as even with the quick voyage, the ship would not be able to do a return trip within 10 days. Not sure that makes sense.

Brother Bryan sounds good Jay. Pity Ancestry does not have border crossings for that period. Not sure if there are any at all.

No evidence of Anna Maria visiting Canada and on all the relevant Census up to marriage. I wonder, as you say an Army or Church connection. He went off to Canada pretty soon after leaving the Army.

Vera

vera2013
09-08-15, 16:10
17766

Wonder could this be Bretheren or perhaps there is a place called Brotheron. On Anna Maria's return to Canada 1912

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
09-08-15, 16:25
I can get as far as CPR - Canadian pacific Railway - but nowhere with a place begin "Broth*" or "Breth*"
Good find, Vera.

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
10-08-15, 11:51
1871 Q4 marriage Uppingham Reg Dist
Daniel Lewin mar
EDITH Bryan or Ann Warren Kirby

In 1871 Daniel Lewin was in Bisbrooke, a widower with 4 children. So, it looks like Charles's mother was a second wife.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=17302120

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
10-08-15, 12:05
Could this be Edith?

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LEIRG10_3290_3294-0657/15676865?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dedith%26gsln%3dbry an%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1846%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msb dp%3d10%26msbpn__ftp%3d%2bRutland%252c%2bEngland%2 6msbpn%3d5281%26msbpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5281%257c0%257c0%257c%26msrpn__ftp%3dRutland%25 2c%2bEngland%26msrpn%3d5281%26msrpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5281%257c0%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3db78%2 6pcat%3d1871UKI%26h%3d15676865%26db%3duki1871%26in div%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=LEIRG10_3290_3294-0657

The age is slightly out.

Note the next household to where Edith worked: there is a 7 yr old grandson W Fred Bryan.
IF the age of Edith in census is out by 4 years, then this boy COULD have been her son, and IF it was the right lady to become the second Mrs Daniel Lewin, W Fred would have the half-brother of her Lewin children.
(All ifs and ands and buts, I know.)

Jay

vera2013
10-08-15, 14:47
I was taking a look at Edith last night and saw that one. Got in a bit of a muddle too. There is another one with an Edith with grandsons William and George H.

I was following George H who I think could be Edith's brother. He went out to Canada in 1891 and could be the Bro Bryan as he married a girl called Emma Grey. Wasn't there some connection with the Grey family and the adoption of Alice?

I digress. I will check out that census for Edith (grandmother). Think it was 1881.

Vera

vera2013
10-08-15, 15:07
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/RUTRG10_3304_3308-0315/17309237?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d1 7309237&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=RUTRG10_3304_3308-0315

1871 Census

Edith Bryan aged 60 born Nottingham
Francis aged 7 b Barrowden
George H aged 3 b 1868 Barrowden
living Barrowden

The previous post should have read Grandsons Frances and George H who could be Edith's nephew and Charles Lewin's Cousin.

Vera

vera2013
10-08-15, 15:28
Think that is Edith in the 1871 as a Servant but don't think that is her son William F.

This is perhaps him in the 1881 with parents Benjamin and Sarah A living in Melton Mowbray. Sarah A is cross referenced with a Sarah A Bond on Ancestry

Benjamin aged 44
Sarah A aged 40
William F aged 16 born Melton Mowbray

living Sydney Street, Melton Mowbray

Vera

GallowayLass
10-08-15, 15:47
I like the CPR being the railway, good find. I've been googling away and have come up with two matches on a map c. 85 miles from Collingwood. Brotherson's Lake which is a lake and Brotherson's Bay which isn't a bay on the coast - it seems to be another lake or a bay in a lake? I wonder if the railway went there?

Janet in Yorkshire
10-08-15, 15:52
Thank you Vera - I've given myself a headache again trying to fit together a jigsaw with only half the pieces!
Yes, it was JOHN Grey who adopted Alice, so there could well be some connection; part of a complex extended family network.

There were also Bryans in Collingwood from about 1891 and after, and I think the parents would certainly have been of Edith's generation or perhaps older.
Charles/William was certainly quick off the mark going over to Canada after his discharge from the army, which is why I have a "feeling" he may already have had some sort of family connection there. Serving in India would have opened his eyes a bit compared with his father's life as an ag lab in rural Rutland. Perhaps the relatives helped arrange a job for him in the Collingwood shipbuilding yards?
If only I could fathom out how his relationship with Alice began?

I will have to try and record some of the people I keep coming across in my searches - that was I may be able to piece some bits together.
Nobody ever claimed family history was easy, not if they wanted to be sure they'd got it "right" anyway.

Jay

vera2013
10-08-15, 16:16
Yes he hopped over the Canada pretty sharpish. So not much time for courting. Think religion played a part somewhere. George H b 1867 Rutland was Gospel Hall (Had one in our Town) and an Engineer in the shipyard.

Think as you say it was some pen pal situation. I recall when first going to London our next door neighbour who worshipped at the Gospel Hall sorted myself and my friend out with accommodation via a Methodist connection in the suburbs. Soon moved out of there mind to the bright lights. Happy days.

I find it all fascinating but do tend to get carried away.

I noticed Galloway Lass that Anna Maria when returning in 1912 did not say, as others on the manifest did, that she was going to 'husband', Cousin, Parents. So likely to be a place or a Community

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
10-08-15, 16:38
I wondered if the dock linked up with the CPR and you went so far on that and then disembarked and connected with a local railway line? I tried googling Brotherton & variants, but couldn't find anything, so well done on that score. Makes perfect sense that it didn't show up on "places" if the name refers to a physical feature. I expect the CP railway would be built in sections and because of the vastness of crossing Canada, it would be planned in straight lines, not meandering around to link up various towns. Often in North America, Australia etc the settlements came AFTER/as a result of the railway, whereas in the UK, much smaller country and already well settled pre-railway, it was more a case of the railways being built to "join up" the places, for transportation of raw goods, manufactured items etc as well as transportation for people. I think people carriage was a spin off for the railway investors.

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
11-08-15, 15:51
I haven't been able to locate Brotherson's anything on a map :( - what direction is it from Collingwood, please?

Jay

vera2013
11-08-15, 18:48
http://travelingluck.com/North+America/Canada/Ontario/_5909656_Brotherson's+Lake.html

Vera

Janet in Yorkshire
11-08-15, 19:03
Thanks Vera. I think the CPR ran from Montreal to Toronto and then turned north to travel up east of Lake Huron. The CPR had fingers in lots of pies and possibly bought out, or ran in conjunction with, some of the minor railways. Looks like it would have been a connection point to get a train heading towards Collingwood.

Jay

GallowayLass
11-08-15, 21:06
Here's an 1870's map of the railway system around Collingwood that eventually joined up with C.P.R. further to the north.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h374/GallowayLass/Map_of_the_North_Simcoe_Railway_and_its_connection s.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/GallowayLass/media/Map_of_the_North_Simcoe_Railway_and_its_connection s.jpg.html)

Janet in Yorkshire
11-08-15, 21:20
Well done, and thank you GallowayLass. Your googling skills are obviously far superior to mine :D - I've been trying on and off all day to find something like that, but to no avail.

Jay

Blewin
12-08-15, 20:46
Hi Jay...,

The amount of information you and the others on this thread have found on WCL is amazing. I'm impressed by your skills.

My father (Noel James) had mentioned that he had cousins in Collingwood. So it is likely that when my grandfather WCL went there, he was encouraged to come by his relatives already living there. I imagine that the Greys, the ones who adopted Alice Lewin were related. Alice's married name was Mills.


I see that Maurice and Dan Lewin were mentioned in the 1921 Census. Their house was on Hume Street in Collingwood.


My grandfather WCL came from Cardiff Wales. My father said that his grandfather was a farmer in Wales.
WCL was in the British Army as you have found. He was in South Africa for the Boer War and in India. He said that he marched across the Sahara and that his foot froze and they had to amputate one of his toes. The artifacts of his that I have are: G.W. Bacon & Co Ltd London Siege of Ladysmith - South African Battle Pictures No. 6. poster. WCL had other posters in his house in Collingwood, but I don't know what happened to them. Possibly some of my cousins took them.

I have a book titled "Glimpses of India' with over 500 pages of pictures and text of the history of India at that time. The editors preface is from Bombay October 1895. My grandfather's signature is in the book and it matches the ones that you have found. Also, while in India he had a signature stamp made by what he said was an Indian Fakir. He gave the stamp to me because I'm named after him. While the stamp uses initials instead of William Charles, the "Lewin" part and the "W" and "C" match what you have found. I have taken pictures of all these artifacts and will send them to you as soon as I have found a way to do that.

If I speculate, I would say that Anna Maria went home because her father was ill. My father Noel was born Aug 13 1910. Possibly WCL waited for that before he went home in Nov 1910. After Anna Maria's father died she returned from the UK. If there's a picture of her leaving, I can match that to the other photo of her that I'm trying to send.

Thank you so much for spending time on WCL. I can now see how genealogy can become addictive, like trying to solve a mystery.

Regards,

Bill.

Regards,

Bill.

Janet in Yorkshire
13-08-15, 17:32
For everyone who has shown an interest in the thread, Bill and I have managed to make e-mail contact. He has confirmed the second marriage to Frances, a lady whom he knew. I am so pleased that what has been found dovetails very nicely with his personal knowledge of the family.
I think there may be one or two tiny anomalies between the actual and what has been passed down through the family, but I think many of us have been in this situation ourselves!
Thank you all for your interest and input. Like Arnie, I could very well be back .....

Jay

jonmce
10-02-16, 14:26
Good Day
I happened to have come across your posts. Charles (Charlie) Lewin was my grandfather. I can probably answer quite a few of your questions. I have for instance his discharge papers from the army and some photos.
Just a few points Grandad came to Collingwood because one of his half brothers, a Bryant was living there. Grandad also fought in the Battle of Omdurman, Atbara and in the Boer War. He was stationed in Malta, Egypt, Sudan, near Hyderabad India, South Africa and then returned to England.
Regards
John

jonmce
10-02-16, 14:41
Just a few further thoughts. Grandad always claimed he didn't have a second name which was untrue. He said lower class people didn't have second names. At one point I traced his family back to 1800 but didn't keep a record. For the most part, they stayed in the same general area and were rather poor. The first family from his first wife consisted of Alice who was distant from the family probably because of granddad, Steve who according to my mother was an American coast guard captain( his daughter still lives in Collingwood and knows quite a bit about that part of the family history), Noel again according to mother worked in the Ontario parliament buildings, Morse who was a town cop in Collingwood, Dan who died before he was 20 from a brain tumor. The second family with my grandmother Frances( she was originally hired to look after the kids when the first wife died and was considerably younger born 1900), was Ruth my mother and John.

jonmce
10-02-16, 14:51
lots of comments. The rail line to Collingwood was the Northern or some such. It was the first line connecting the lower lakes to the upper lakes and further West and is the reason Collingwood came into being in 1850. It was actually superseded by CP which pushed through to BC in 1885. The Collingwood line became part of Canadian National. Both these railroads exist today.

margaretmarch
11-02-16, 09:29
Good Day
I happened to have come across your posts. Charles (Charlie) Lewin was my grandfather. I can probably answer quite a few of your questions. I have for instance his discharge papers from the army and some photos.
Just a few points Grandad came to Collingwood because one of his half brothers, a Bryant was living there. Grandad also fought in the Battle of Omdurman, Atbara and in the Boer War. He was stationed in Malta, Egypt, Sudan, near Hyderabad India, South Africa and then returned to England.
Regards
John

Hi John, Welcome to the forum. You may find it quicker to gain Janet's attention by sending her a private message (PM) - click on her name by one of her posts and the drop down menu gives you the option to send a PM. Not sure if you need to have made more posts yourself in order to do that.

Margaret

Chrissie Smiff
11-02-16, 10:12
Hi John, Welcome to the forum. You may find it quicker to gain Janet's attention by sending her a private message (PM) - click on her name by one of her posts and the drop down menu gives you the option to send a PM. Not sure if you need to have made more posts yourself in order to do that.

Margaret

From 'Site News and Support'
New members can send and receive messages (PMs) but:
They can only send each PM to a single recipient. They need to wait for 60 seconds between each message.
New members have an Inbox limit of 10 messages, this includes messages sent and received.
Once they have been a registered member for 10 days AND have made 10 posts the limit rises to 1000 messages and 5 recipients per PM.

and welcome to FTF Jon:)

Janet in Yorkshire
11-02-16, 11:52
Hi John,
I couldn't get into the forum last night, so have only just come across your response - welcome to the forum, by the way :)
I've got a few commitments to deal with today, so won't be around much until this evening.
I'm going to have to read through this thread (and the other one) to reacquaint myself with the personalities. My original motive was to find out what happened to Anna Maria (a twig on the periphery of my tree, although we do share a common ancestor further back.)
As so often happens, a whole new, interesting story began to emerge, but I'm sorry to say I never fully followed it through.:bad: I'm afraid I'm a bit of a dilettante with a grasshopper mind and I think I got distracted and engrossed with a few other projects - as well as family history, I'm also into local history research and am involved in a war memorial & roll of honour project.
Anyway, thank you for posting and I'll be back on the board this evening.

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
11-02-16, 19:39
Thanks very much for your input, John, both on the family and on the area.
So were we right in our thinking that Mr Bryan, WCL's half brother, helped with getting settled and finding a job?
What still intrigues me is how did William, in Canada, and Anna, in Norfolk, get together? Was it the result of correspondence through the church, or had they met in Norfolk before William decided to emigrate? Can you throw any light on this, please?

Jay