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back to my brick wall: Joseph Brook Sanders

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  • back to my brick wall: Joseph Brook Sanders

    Apologies in advance for the long post, I wanted to include any possibly relevant info.
    I have posted before about this elusive man, my g.g.grandfather, and now I am re-visiting him.

    This is what I know:
    Born Joseph Brook, 1836, base child of Agnes Brook, baptised in the parish of Exbourne, Devon.

    Agnes Brook m Lawrence Sanders June 1837 (just before civil registration began)
    Joseph is then known as Joseph Brook Sanders, although sometimes just uses Sanders.
    I have him in Devon in 1841 and 51 (Lawrence is a miller).

    He isn't with his family in 1861, they are still in Lifton, Devon, but Joseph doesn't reappear until 1865, when his first known child, daughter Clara Agnes Sanders is born in Lifton at the family home. Joseph is a carpenter, and this remains consistent on all the records I have of him. Her mother is Lydia, maiden name Siffert/Sieffert. From the 1871 census, Lydia was born in Leipzig, the Kingdom of Saxony, Germany. I cannot find her before this.

    Mystery 1: Where was Joseph between 1851 (age 15) and 1865 (age 29)? Where did he meet Lydia, and when/where did they marry? (if indeed they did marry at all).

    In 1868 the couple have a son, also named Joseph Brook Sanders, and they are living in Fulham. In 1871 they are still in Fulham, and their last known child, Lydia Brook Sanders (my g.grandmother) is born there in 1874.

    Newspaper searches show that Joseph was declared bankrupt twice, and Fulham library confirmed to me that the family left their address during 1875. They also had a record of Joseph taking Lydia for her smallpox vaccination in April 1875, so that was very helpful in placing him still with his family.


    In 1881 the mystery just gets deeper.
    Clara, age 16 is a visitor with the Lyons family in Mile End London (no connection found yet).
    Joseph jnr, age 14, apprentice plumber, is living with his widowed aunt Mary Ann Wise in Cornwall.
    Lydia and Lydia jnr, age 7, are living in Mile End. Lydia states she is a widow, born in Brazil, and that Lydia jnr is a naturalized British citizen.

    Mystery 2: Why would a German lady pretend to be from Brazil? And why pretend your daughter was born abroad?


    Anyway, for a long time I was searching for the death of Joseph snr, obviously without luck, as he actually went to Brazil in 1879 according to a very useful website called South American Brits Database. The info is transcribed from the Consulate Records, Port Alegre.

    Mystery 3: Why/how Brazil? It can't have been a simple journey and it seems such a random place to pick. UNLESS, there is some connection to Lydia's family, or Joseph had previously been in Brazil during all his other missing years. Does anyone know how I could find out more? And it would seem that Lydia knew exactly where her husband was, otherwise why did she pretend to be Brazilian?

    My final information was given to me on a previous thread on here, that Joseph Brook Sanders applied for a passport in Brazil in March 1890. So, he seems to have spent at least 11 years living in Brazil, while his wife and daughters lived in poor circumstances in London's East End.

    Mystery 4: Where did he travel on his passport? Are there any records I can access for this? He is listed as returning to Port Alegre in 1890, so he wasn't away for very long.

    Lydia Sanders jnr married John Poole in Bethnal Green, Sept 1894, father listed as Joseph decd.
    Lydia Sanders snr married William Whestone in Mile End, Sept 1895.
    Clara Agnes Sanders is very helpfully the witness, and is also the informant on her mother's death certificate in June 1898, age 50. So that neatly confirms the family ties.

    I'm wondering if Joseph Brook Sanders actually died between 1890 and 1894. Does anyone know of a way to search Brazilian death records?

    As I said, apologies for the long post. I keep coming back to this brick wall every couple of years, I think there is a lot more to discover between the lines.

    Thanks very much for any advice given.
    I have just ordered FTM to get 6 months ancestry worldwide, so I will be able to follow up any new resources in a few days.

    Denise

  • #2
    Here are the other threads about him so that everyone can see what was suggested (and discarded) previously:

    joseph sanders death? 20-02-11
    finding the real father? 25-09-11
    where did Joseph go?21-04-12
    Australian records help please22-04-12
    Caroline
    Caroline's Family History Pages
    Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

    Comment


    • #3
      wonder if this is him in 1861

      Joseph
      Saunders
      Single
      Male
      Age 24
      Birth year 1837
      Occupation Carpenters Crew
      Birth town Exeter Devon
      Vessel name Hmst Sloop Alacrity (this is how its written)
      Royal Navy At Sea and in Ports Abroad
      Enumeration -
      Archive reference RG09
      Piece number 4439
      Folio number 250
      Page number 3
      Last edited by Guest; 13-07-15, 14:10.

      Comment


      • #4
        interesting now he is married

        Joseph
        Saunders
        Married
        Male
        Age 24
        Birth year 1837
        Occupation A B
        Born Exeter
        Devon
        Royal Navy At Sea and in Ports Abroad
        Vessel name Liffey

        Archive Reference RG09
        Piece number 4440
        Folio number 254
        Page number 21

        Comment


        • #5
          Val - they're two different men - they're on different boats.
          The carpenter is on the sloop, Alacrity.

          Caroline
          Caroline's Family History Pages
          Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

          Comment


          • #6
            yes I saw that but thought he had jumped ship same age place of birth etc

            can you delete that second one then please
            Last edited by Guest; 13-07-15, 14:39.

            Comment


            • #7
              Here's the link IGI but you have to browse the pages, bit of a tall order and how is your Spanish!

              Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.


              Rio Grande Do Sul covers Porto Alegre

              did fin a site that might be interesting, Germans to Brazil

              Elaine

              Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

              http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
              http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

              Comment


              • #8
                It did occur to me from the first post that he was possibly a ships carpenter and was abroad at times - Germany? - to meet Lydia at some point? Not sure if Merchant Seamen records go back this far but maybe worth looking at in National Archives I think.
                Margaret

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you for the ideas so far, I'm going to be spending Friday searching. Fingers crossed for a breakthrough

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Whoops, should have said how's your Portugese:D
                    Elaine

                    Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                    http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                    http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Elaine View Post
                      Whoops, should have said how's your Portugese:D
                      Google translate is a real boon in these circs!
                      Margaret

                      Comment

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